Homosexuality: Wrong or Right?

[David in NJ]

David, where is that "very clear and precise scripture" that states any sex outside of marriage of man with woman, is sin. You made the claim, now prove it. The best you can do is cobble together verses to make a theological construction, based on your fallible, human reasoning. That is the subject upon which I made comment.

Arthur, thank you for your response as i did get some humor from it.

Myself and others have already provided the scriptures for you with a direct Bullseye Hit each time.

From @Rella in Post #1,543

From @David in NJ in Post #1,545

From @Taken in Post #1,531

just to name a few

 

[St. SteVen]

lol...read the entire Bible for yourself ....

That saw cuts both ways.
You failed to provide evidence for your position.

/

 

[GracePeace]

Arthur, thank you for your response as i did get some humor from it.

Myself and others have already provided the scriptures for you with a direct Bullseye Hit each time.

From @Rella in Post #1,543

From @David in NJ in Post #1,545

From @Taken in Post #1,531

just to name a few

Anyone who doesn't know the Scriptures condemn homosexuality, and that it only condones heterosexual marital sex--and, in the New Covenant, where God gets His way, between one man and one woman, as it was in Genesis--and nothing else, just doesn't want to know. The information is there.

 

[GracePeace]

Can you give a verse or passage that states that sex outside of marriage of man and woman is sin? Or, is that teaching a theological construction, which involves the conclusion of fallible men.

Yeah, there's even a word for it : "fornication".
Under the Law of Moses, fornicators were put to death.

 

[David in NJ]

Anyone who doesn't know the Scriptures condemn homosexuality, and that it only condones heterosexual marital sex--and, in the New Covenant, where God gets His way, between one man and one woman, as it was in Genesis--and nothing else, just doesn't want to know. The information is there.

And that info is grade school level reading = God made it simple and easy to be understood.

 

[St. SteVen]

There is another view guys, Not every scholar agrees on this.

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[GracePeace]

There is another view guys, Not every scholar agrees on this.

/

From the beginning of Christianity, we've been unanimous on sexual ethics.

These Johnny Come Latelies are irrelevant--we've known about their coming for a long time.

2 Timothy 4
2For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,

 

[GracePeace]

There is another view guys, Not every scholar agrees on this.

/

At 41:47 of your own video, the guy admits "...if you focus on Scripture and tradition, you're going to come out with a more Conservative understanding of various moral issues, including same sex relations; if you look at reason and experience, you're going to come out with a more liberal understanding..."

So, actually, if you agree with your own "scholars", you agree with us that there is no place in Scripture or historical Christianity for your favorite abominations. Your favorite abominations have no justification in Scripture or in historical Christianity, only in "reason" and "experience". You have a new religion--not based on Scripture, and with no historical root--so quit calling it "Christianity".

 

[GracePeace]

Has anyone seen the debates on this issue? The gays get torn to shreds. They don't even debate this stuff anymore--not as widely as it used to be debated a few years back. They've already been publicly humiliated.

Examples:

 

[GracePeace]

Yeah, there's even a word for it : "fornication".
Under the Law of Moses, fornicators were put to death.

The "proof of her virginity" referred to would have been the sheet on which she would have bled after her first sexual encounter with her husband--without this, and barring any other explanation, it was assumed she had actually been guilty of fornication, pre-marital sex, and would have been subject to the death penalty.

Deuteronomy 22
13 If a man takes a wife and, after sleeping with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, “I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,” 15 then the young woman’s father and mother shall bring to the town elders at the gate proof that she was a virgin. 16 Her father will say to the elders, “I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, ‘I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.’ But here is the proof of my daughter’s virginity.” Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels[a] of silver and give them to the young woman’s father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.
20 If, however, the charge is true, and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.

Christ did not come to do away with the Law, but to fulfill the Law (Mt 5; Ro 3:31)--and, to that end, He raises the standards of the Law (eg, forbidding vows (Mt 5), and forbidding the form of divorce given as a concession in Torah (Mt 19)), though He also teaches mercy and permission to repent and return to God and God's way.

@Arthur81 @St. SteVen @TheOneHeLoves @BarneyFife @David in NJ

 

[David in NJ]

The "proof of her virginity" referred to would have been the sheet on which she would have bled after her first sexual encounter with her husband--without this, and barring any other explanation, it was assumed she had actually been guilty of fornication, pre-marital sex, and would have been subject to the death penalty.

Deuteronomy 22
13 If a man takes a wife and, after sleeping with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, “I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,” 15 then the young woman’s father and mother shall bring to the town elders at the gate proof that she was a virgin. 16 Her father will say to the elders, “I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, ‘I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.’ But here is the proof of my daughter’s virginity.” Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels[a] of silver and give them to the young woman’s father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.
20 If, however, the charge is true, and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.

Christ did not come to do away with the Law, but to fulfill the Law (Mt 5; Ro 3:31)--and, to that end, He raises the standards of the Law (eg, forbidding vows (Mt 5), and forbidding the form of divorce given as a concession in Torah (Mt 19)), though He also teaches mercy and permission to repent and return to God and God's way.

@Arthur81 @St. SteVen @TheOneHeLoves @BarneyFife @David in NJ

Excellent Golden Nugget of Truth Brother = Thank You

i may add this as well = Deuteronomy 22 PROVES that the term 'young maiden/virgin' in Isaiah 7:14 was indeed a VIRGIN.

Christ was born under the Law = again proves that Mary was a VIRGIN when Christ enetered her womb.

 

[GracePeace]

Excellent Golden Nugget of Truth Brother = Thank You

i may add this a swell = Deuteronomy 22 PROVES that the term 'young maiden/virgin' in Isaiah 7:14 was indeed a VIRGIN.

Christ was born under the Law = again proves that Mary was a VIRGIN when Christ enetered her womb.

It just shows the sexual ethic of God--even under Torah, which was imperfect--which was transmitted through Jesus and His Apostles to the rest of the disciples.

Ephesians 5
3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints.

Unmarried sex should not once be named among the churches. That is the infinite strictness and love we are to walk by.

Then these Johnny Come Latelies have the unmitigated GALL and DARING to question, "Hath God really said...?" They are DOOMED, and "THEY WILL NOT ESCAPE"!

 

[GracePeace]

God, being our Creator, knows what we are, and what is best for us.

Leviticus 18
20You shall not have intercourse with your neighbor’s wife, to be defiled with her.

Culture (ie, "reason" and "experience"--the "sand" upon which the Johnny-Come-Lately false "Christians" build their houses) will say, "It's obvious the woman wasn't getting what she needed, and it was salutary for her to get what she needed, even if she bent the rules and committed adultery," but God zeroes in on the truth: "You are not merely bodies, you are spirits and souls, and by doing this act you defile yourselves at the core of your being, so do not do it."

Every sexual act that is not within a marriage (one man, one woman) is denounced by God in Scripture. It is so clear. People who have no fear or love of God do not accept God's Word. It's really that simple.

 

[David in NJ]

God, being our Creator, knows what we are, and what is best for us.

Leviticus 18
20You shall not have intercourse with your neighbor’s wife, to be defiled with her.

Culture (ie, "reason" and "experience") will say, "It's obvious the woman wasn't getting what she needed, and it was salutary for her to get what she needed, even if she bent the rules and committed adultery," but God zeroes in on the truth: "You are not merely bodies, you are spirits and souls, and by doing this act you defile yourselves at the core of your being, so do not do it."

Every sexual act that is not within a marriage (one man, one woman) is denounced by God in Scripture. It is so clear. People who have no fear or love of God do not accept God's Word. It's really that simple.

This was much needed and i thank you for taking the time to bring forth the Truth from Scripture.

 

[GracePeace]

This was much needed and i thank you for taking the time to bring forth the Truth from Scripture.

The Sword cuts both ways--the devil was trying for the longest time to deceive me about this, but God's Word saves, makes the devil's lies apparent. "Defilement!" Once God lets us call it what it is, then there is rest in the truth.

 

[Lizbeth]

Scientists immediately rejected the inclusion of the lie that it is a mental illness.

Science can't measure or observe or take into account what is going on in the spiritual realm. It can only measure and observe effects of spiritual activity on the natural realm. Homosexuality is first and foremost a spiritual problem, like all sins.

 

[GracePeace]

Science can't measure or observe or take into account what is going on in the spiritual realm. It can only measure and observe effects of spiritual activity on the natural realm. Homosexuality is first and foremost a spiritual problem, like all sins.

Real science WOULD be able to detect an aberration--"I observe this man is, contrary to design, inserting his penis into another man's anus! Something has gone terribly wrong with him!"

The issue is with the scientists--they themselves cannot be trusted with adjudicating anything, having had their reason tainted due to their boasting.

Romans 1
22Claiming to be wise, they became fools...
24Therefore God gave them up to vile impurity in the lusts of their hearts, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25For they exchanged the truth of God for falsehood, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed [r]forever. Amen.
26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged natural relations for that which is contrary to nature, 27and likewise the men, too, abandoned natural relations with women and burned in their desire toward one another, males with males committing shameful acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a depraved mind, to do those things that are not proper, 29people having been filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, and evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice; they are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31without understanding, untrustworthy, unfeeling, and unmerciful; 32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also approve of those who practice them.

 

[St. SteVen]

From the beginning of Christianity, we've been unanimous on sexual ethics.

Not true.
Our modern view is our own.
We have lost touch with the culture and history from which our own beliefs were
created independently of the beginnings of Christianity and before.

Have you seen this forum topic?

Does the "husband of one wife" requirement mean that polygamy was common in the early church?

Why does the Apostle Paul require that church Elders be the "husband of one wife" if polygamy wasn't common in the church? Titus 1:5-6 ESV This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— 6 if anyone is...

www.christianityboard.com

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Homosexuality is first and foremost a spiritual problem, like all sins.

Tell that to the young teen that realizes they have always had a same-sex attraction.
They know they don't dare tell anyone or it will be trouble.

Where's the sin?

And adult Christians that come out of a gay lifestyle say that the same-sex attraction never goes away.

Transgender preferences become apparent in children between 3 to 5 years old.

Where's the sin?

What does the church do to help? We protest gay pride parades. Big help!

Where's the sin? (in the church)

So, from that perspective, I agree.
The way the church handles homosexuality is first and foremost a spiritual problem, like all sins.

/

 

[Wick Stick]

Homosexuality is first and foremost a spiritual problem, like all sins.

Tell that to the young teen that realizes they have always had a same-sex attraction.
They know they don't dare tell anyone or it will be trouble.

Where's the sin?

The sin is in the imagination - "the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth"

If they nurture those thoughts, they will eventually manifest in that person's life... most likely when they become and adult and begin to make choices for themselves with less regard for what others may think.

I do think the realm of thoughts and imaginings is "spiritual." That's how I define "spiritual" - pertaining to thoughts and the mind. I'm not sure that's what @Lizbeth meant in her post, many people make the spirit some sort of mystic thing.

Anyway, this problem is hardly restricted to homosexuality. I daresay most heterosexual people visualize themselves in sex acts with people they ought not to, and that fostering those sort of thoughts leads to promiscuity.

However, the problem is more pronounced in the gay community, because you have a group of people who make sexuality the most important piece of their shared identity.

What does the church do to help? We protest gay pride parades. Big help!

Where's the sin? (in the church)

So, from that perspective, I agree.
The way the church handles homosexuality is first and foremost a spiritual problem, like all sins.

/

I agree. With regards to homosexuality, the church has a distinct tendency to want to go "Old Testament." We need to put down our rocks.

But at the same time, the church should not receive into membership people (gay or straight!) whose core identity revolves around sex, particularly if they are engaged in habitual promiscuity.