They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament

[Zao is life]

So, by the same token, do you believe that you and I have been physically/bodily resurrected?

Grace and peace to you.

In Christ, yes. In our bodies, no - and it's only the bodily resurrection mentioned in the second part of that statement. The first part has to do with quickening by the Spirit.

Jesus said whoever believes has passed from death to life. He did not say "raised" from death to life.

See my OP in this thread. The Greek words used for being raised and resurrection without exception in the New Testament refer to the resurrection of the body.

We speak about being "dead spiritually" when we were born into this world, and Paul says the body is dead because of sin (Romans 8:10), but spiritually we had no eternal life to begin with when we were born into the world - not until we were born of the Spirit (quickened).

We simply had no eternal life when we were born into the world that we had died from so that we could be "raised" from spiritual death. Paul says the Spirit will quicken our dead-in-sin bodies in Romans 8:11) Ephesians makes a distinction:

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead in sins,

(1) He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);

(2) and has synegeírō (raised us up together), and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

The word syzōopoiéō refers to being made alive ("quickened") together with the Spirit's quickening of Christ after He died, by the same Spirit of God breathing life into a person. The word synegeírō refers to being raised up bodily together with Christ's bodily resurrection from death.

The "spiritual resurrection" that many claim we received when we were born (gennao) of the Spirit i.e quickened by the Spirit does not equate to rising from death because we had no eternal life at all to begin with:

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born [gennáō] again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[*StrongsGreek*]
01080
γεννάω gennáō, ghen-nah'-o
from a variation of 1085;
to procreate (properly, of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively, to regenerate:--bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

We had no eternal life until God breathed His Spirit into us. We had a body though, and that body was dead in our sin and dying, but is also given life (quickened) by the Spirit and the body that we had will become the seed of the resurrected body after it dies.

Our bodies will die, but we did not die spiritually before we were born of the Spirit (quickened). We did not rise from the dead spiritually (so-called "spiritual resurrection") when we were born of the Spirit.

 

[Timtofly]

I don’t think an on going resurrection fits, here’s how I see it.

In Daniel 12:1 at that time shall Michael stand up. Here it implies that Michael doesn’t take a standing position until a specific time. In Revelation 12:7 Michael and his angels fight the dragon.

There are three options in regard to Michael.

1. Michael fights the dragon in Revelation 12 while not standing. Unlikely
2. Michael fights the dragon prior to the Daniel 12 vision. I think this option has too many hurdles to overcome.
3. Michael fighting the dragon in Revelation 12 is the same event where he stands up in Daniel 12:1. This is the most reasonable option.

Since option 3 seems the most likely to me, Revelation 12 gives more information on when the Daniel 12:2 resurrection happened.

In Revelation 12:10 after the fight it says now is come salvation, strength, the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ. Vs 12 then says woe to the earth the devil has come to you, having great wrath, because he knows he has but a short time.

The other thing that needs to be considered is that Daniel 12:1 says and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Matthew 24:21 has a similar statement, For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

If Daniel 12:1 is referring to a time of trouble in heaven and Matthew 24:21 is referring to tribulation on earth then these two events can happen at different times, otherwise they happen at the same point in time. Either way Daniel 12:1 says “at that time”, which is not an on going time period.

Ok, when I try to fit all this together, it seems that the Daniel 12:2 resurrection is the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrection. Matthew 27:52-53 uses the word “saints” for those being resurrected, Daniel 12:2 says “many of them” which I believe is referring back to “children of thy people” in Daniel 12:1. In Deuteronomy 33:1-3 Moses blessed the children of Israel and called them collectively saints, meaning both the believers and unbelievers.

My conclusion is that both believing and unbelieving Jews were resurrected in Matthew 27:52-53. Satan had a short time per Revelation 12:12 to attack the Jews on earth until their ultimate demise in 70AD.

You cannot place the 7th Trumpet "resurrection" at the same point as the event on the Cross. Your chronology is getting more twisted as you fall down this rabbit hole of amil eschatology.

I pointed out that Daniel saw the future that way, but we know more than Daniel did 2500 years ago. We know the 7th Trumpet has not sounded yet. So, no, Michael does not fight the dragon at all. You are not paying attention to God's Word.

You are just assuming that Satan's trouble happened between the Cross and 70AD. John already pointed out that the casting of Satan out of heaven goes hand in hand with the 7th Trumpet. Satan coming to earth is the 3rd woe.

We don't need to figure out when Michael stands up. That was information given to Daniel's people. We have the book of Revelation which was still future in the first century, and even until now.

We know there was a resurrection at the Cross. We know Revelation was written after that Resurrection, so you cannot twist history as easily as you can, words found in the book of Revelation. How can you convince us the Book of Revelation was written prior to the baptism and ministry of Jesus on the earth?

The first resurrection was experienced by only the OT redeemed when Jesus declared, "It is finished". They left Abraham's bosom as souls, entered God's permanent incorruptible physical body, and ascended to Paradise 3 days later.

"And came out of the graves after his resurrection."

This is very explicit that they were no longer dead, and in their graves, just like Jesus. They ascended into Paradise just like Jesus. They were presented to God in the order Paul gave: Christ the firstfruits. Those firstfruits are the church in Christ, the OT harvest. Their presentation was the start of the ongoing phenomenon of the first resurrection to all in Christ. If we are in Christ, the soul leaves Adam's dead corruptible physical body at physical death, and enters God's permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise, just like all before us, starting with those OT firstfruits.

Those not in Christ are the rest of the dead and they remain in sheol until sheol is emptied and sheol itself cast into the LOF.

 

[PinSeeker]

In Christ, yes.

Okay, I’ll accept that, but it is what it is.

and it's only the bodily resurrection mentioned in the second part of that statement.

The resurrection being specifically spoken of is our spiritual resurrection, Fullness Of The Gentiles. Those who believe in Him are given new life spiritually now because of Christ’s physical resurrection. Paul is not speaking in a figurative or metaphorical way.

The first part has to do with quickening by the Spirit.

Yeah I’ll come back to the quickening thing; that’s not the immediate focus here. I asked you a very specific question. You answered, and that’s fine, but I’d like to stick to that for now.

Jesus said whoever believes has passed from death to life.

Ah, Jumping from Paul in Ephesians 2 to Jesus in John 5… my goodness. The contexts of the two passages are very different, Fullness Of The Gentiles. Yes, Jesus says there, “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears My word and believes Him Who sent Me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” Jesus, in John 5:24, is speaking of the benefits and reward and eternal destiny of the believer. Just two sentences later, he says, “Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.” This is the physical resurrection, which will take place upon His return. But Paul, however, in Ephesians 2:6-7, is speaking of what God has done to and for us in the here and now. It is the spiritual resurrection of the elect, each at his appointed time.

He did not say "raised" from death to life.

No, because His context is very different. See above.

See my OP in this thread. The Greek words used for being raised and resurrection without exception in the New Testament refer to the resurrection of the body..

I’m well aware of your OP. :) That’s not the case. :) This is why I asked you what I asked you. And it seemed a light bulb went on in your head… figuratively speaking, of course, but alas… :)

We speak about being "dead spiritually" when we were born into this world…

Right, because we are; this is our natural state/condition from birth, as David says of himself in Psalm 51:5… “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.” Thus our need in this life to be made alive spiritually, in our spirit. This is the quickening of our spirit, our being born again of and by the Holy Spirit.

Upon this happening, we are raised ~ resurrected; you agreed on that ~ spiritually. We have been given the Spiritual gift of faith and this walk in newness of life, a new creation, even in this life.

and Paul says the body is dead because of sin (Romans 8:10)…, but spiritually we had no eternal life to begin with when we were born into the world - not until we were born of the Spirit (quickened).

We simply had no eternal life when we were born into the world that we had died from so that we could be "raised" from spiritual death. Paul says the Spirit will quicken our dead-in-sin bodies in Romans 8:11) Ephesians makes a distinction:

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead in sins,

(1) He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);

(2) and has synegeírō (raised us up together), and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

The word syzōopoiéō refers to being made alive ("quickened") together with the Spirit's quickening of Christ after He died, by the same Spirit of God breathing life into a person.
The word synegeírō refers to being raised up bodily together with Christ's bodily resurrection from death.

The "spiritual resurrection" that many claim we received when we were born (gennao) of the Spirit i.e quickened by the Spirit does not equate to rising from death because we had no eternal life at all to begin with…

Oh my. Doesn’t equate to rising from death physically because we haven’t physically died yet. As I said to CadyAndZoe, the state of death or being dead in spirit means not that the spirit is unable to do anything, or unresponsive, or absolutely lifeless, but rather unable to respond positively to God and His call to righteousness in Christ because he or she sees no need for salvation or a Savior. He or she regards it as foolishness (Paul, 1 Corinthians 1-2). And this is not because he or she cannot, but rather because he or she will not, because ~ as Jesus says of the Jews to whom He is speaking at the Feast of Dedication in John 10 ~ he or she is of his or her father the devil, and as such is fully and totally inclined against godliness and even God Himself… in that sense, he or she is in a state of spiritual death. This is why we must be born again of the spirit ~ quickened ~ by the Spirit. And upon that happening, we are raised ~ resurrected ~ in spirit, so spiritually, by the Holy Spirit.

I mean, you keep putting apples and oranges together, FOTG. I’m trying really hard not to think you’re doing it on purpose, or you’re just avoiding, or… worse. No offense intended, but goodness gracious.

We did not rise from the dead spiritually (so-called "spiritual resurrection") when we were born of the Spirit.

As I have said, okay, buuuuut…RIGHTAFTER. Lol!



Grace and peace to you, Fullness Of The Gentiles

 

[grafted branch]

We know the 7th Trumpet has not sounded yet. So, no, Michael does not fight the dragon at all. You are not paying attention to God's Word.

Hold on a minute, you’re saying Michael does not fight the dragon at all, when Revelation 12:7 say he does???

Maybe there won’t be a new heaven or new earth either, just because Revelation 21 says it will come doesn’t make it so, and along with that maybe the lake of fire doesn’t exist either. Do you see why this type of thinking is extremely dangerous?

No sir, Michael does fight the dragon just as Revelation 12:7 says. We may disagree about when it happens but we can know for certain it either did or will happen.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, that is true. But only because there is no such thing as a permanent incorruptible physical body now nor will there ever be.

1Co 15:35 But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?"
1Co 15:36 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.
1Co 15:37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain.

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

If, as you say, there will be God's permanent incorruptible physical body in the resurrection, why didn't God make the bodies of Adam and Eve incorruptible physical bodies? Why did He even create this physical corruptible world in the first place? Apparently, according to your view of things, God created the corruptible world just so He could send most of the human beings to eternal condemnation., because that is what is going to happen.

And by the way, there is absolutely nothing in the Bible about Lazarus' body and Jesus' body being raised as incorruptible bodies.

Do you not understand the meaning behind 2 Corinthians 5:1?

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

A tabernacle is temporary compared to a building that is more permanent. Paul also said we would put off corruption and put on incorruption. Why do you argue against Scriptural words found in the Bible? Should we use the words tabernacle and building or temporal and permanent?

Then you start questioning God?

Adam and Eve did have permanent incorruptible physical bodies. God took them away because that is what God said would happen. They lost life and were placed into death, both physically and spiritually.

God did not create the world this way. He placed death on the shoulders of one man called Adam. God said as long as Adam never ate, all would be well. How hard is it to do nothing?

Are you saying Jesus is forever stuck in a body of death? Adam's flesh is death, not life. Adam was not created this way, nor was Jesus born from Adam's dead genetics passed on from one generation to another. You seem messed up in some doctrine that every person is born without sin, and the first mess up causes them to become a sinner, just like Adam.

Paul told us Lazarus would have a permanent incorruptible physical body when his former body was dissolved. You picture that a resurrection fixes the old body, yet every mention of a resurrection by Paul or being in Paradise/heaven results in a totally different body. The old body returns to dust, the new one comes from God.

You call it a spiritual body meaning of God, no? A natural body is of Adam, no? Lazarus' body was not "fixed". His soul was placed in his new body, the old one was gone.

"But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body."

 

[Hobie]

In my view, the "soul" is not the third part of a Tripartite being. The "soul" is the unification of the body and the Spirit, having a personal history, an occupation, and a family line. A "soul" is a life lived. My "soul" is who I am, which includes everything about me. In Genesis 2, Moses indicates that when God took dust from the ground and breathed into it, Adam became a living "soul". Body + Spirit = Soul.

Both the body and the spirit are integral parts of an individual. Thus, the loss of either one leads to the loss of the person as a whole. This can be compared to a mousetrap, where the loss of even a single part results in its destruction. For instance, if the trap arm is missing, the mousetrap becomes incapable of catching mice, and hence, it ceases to function as a mousetrap.

When Adam and Eve physically died, they ceased to be Adam and Eve. This is why it says that the rest of the dead were resurrected in order to be judged. Only when Adam and Eve receive a body do they function as Adam and Eve, and consequently, they can be judged.

Since the dead are seen, they have bodies. And since they have bodies, they were resurrected.


I don't see that. Paul says we all go together at the last Trumpet. Since you place it earlier the rest of your argument falls apart.

Yes, the soul is from the two, when God united His breath, or spirit with man, man became a living soul. So a living soul is composed of body and spirit, so only God can give life and will at the resurrection.

 

[JBO]

Do you not understand the meaning behind 2 Corinthians 5:1?

Yes I do understand the meaning of 2 Corinthians 5:1

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

A tabernacle is temporary compared to a building that is more permanent. Paul also said we would put off corruption and put on incorruption. Why do you argue against Scriptural words found in the Bible? Should we use the words tabernacle and building or temporal and permanent?

Then you start questioning God?

Adam and Eve did have permanent incorruptible physical bodies. God took them away because that is what God said would happen. They lost life and were placed into death, both physically and spiritually.

You are wrong. Adam and Eve were given physical bodies which were not incorruptible. They were physical bodies designed to die eventually unless there was something to keep them from doing so. God took care of that while they were in the Garden. He gave them the Tree of Life. Eating the fruit of that tree allowed them to live forever (see Genesis 3:22). Eating the fruit of that tree was the medicine against the corruptible bodies. It was what could keep the physical body from dying. And it was because of that Tree which gave them the ability, in eating of it, to live forever that God kicked them out of the Garden.

God did not create the world this way. He placed death on the shoulders of one man called Adam. God said as long as Adam never ate, all would be well. How hard is it to do nothing?

The world is precisely how God created it. Nothing in this physical world is uncorruptible. It all dies in one way or another at one time or another.

Are you saying Jesus is forever stuck in a body of death? Adam's flesh is death, not life. Adam was not created this way, nor was Jesus born from Adam's dead genetics passed on from one generation to another. You seem messed up in some doctrine that every person is born without sin, and the first mess up causes them to become a sinner, just like Adam.

Ah yes, that corny old false doctrine of Original Sin, or the even worse, the heretical doctrine of Total Depravity. And yes, Jesus was born with Adam's genetics. And yes we are sinners because we sin. We become dead in OUR trespasses and sins, not in Adam's.

Paul told us Lazarus would have a permanent incorruptible physical body when his former body was dissolved. You picture that a resurrection fixes the old body, yet every mention of a resurrection by Paul or being in Paradise/heaven results in a totally different body. The old body returns to dust, the new one comes from God.

You are wrong again. I personally do not believe that in the age to come, there will be anything physical at all. 2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved.....

The physical universe and everything that is in it will be gone.

You call it a spiritual body meaning of God, no? A natural body is of Adam, no? Lazarus' body was not "fixed". His soul was placed in his new body, the old one was gone.

Nah, Lazarus was not given a new body. He was raised. And Jesus, also, was not given a new body. He was raised. With both Lazarus and Jesus and all others who were raised from the dead, physical life was put back into the same old body that died. Jesus demonstrated that fact with Thomas. And with Lazarus, the body that died was the body that was raised up. It was still wrapped with the burial cloth.

Joh 11:43 When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out."
Joh 11:44 The man who had died came out, his hands and feet bound with linen strips, and his face wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, "Unbind him, and let him go."

That not some new body, that was the old body. As with Jesus, He came out of the tomb. The tomb was empty; there was nothing left there to rot and decay. It was the same old body. Life was given back to that dead carcass.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Right. So we’re good on that, at least… ;)


Hmm, so we’re seated like Christ is seated in the heavenly places, not with Him? I mean, that’s very opposite what Paul says, there. We are seated with Christ in the heavenly places”… those are Paul’s exact words; it is a present reality. But I agree that we are not literally ~ in person ~ seated with Christ (nor were any of the Ephesians he was writing to then). So, in view of that, I… think you should… re-evaluate. :)


Oh, okay, well, that’s too bad; it seems you disagree not only with me on that, but also with FullnessOfTheGentiles… and some others here as well. I and others here maintain that the raising that we have received as a result of having been made alive, as Paul says there, is indeed a resurrection. Not a physical one, but indeed a resurrection, and the Greek bears that out.


This is a letter to the Christians in Ephesus, CadyAndZoe. He’s not writing about anything happening to Christ Jesus, but rather addressing them personally about what God has done for them.


Oh, my. :). Well… okay. :)

Grace and peace to you.

Did you understand my point about representation?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Here are a few verses off the top of my head that IMO prove we have eternal/everlasting spirit life after our body has died. And it seems clear, at least to me that the spirit alive through the Holy Spirit within ascends to heaven still a living, (through without physical form) soul.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

2 Corinthians 5:8 (KJV) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

John 14:3 (KJV) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 17:24 (KJV) Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 specifies the location of the body and the spirit after we die. But it doesn't say that the spirit has a conscious existence.
1 Corinthians 15:44 postulates two kinds of bodies - a natural body and a spiritual body. But the term "natrual" doesn't connote "physical". In other words, Paul contrasts the body's source, not the body's essence. The spiritual body is a physical body that comes into existence by supernatural means.
2 Corinthians 5:8 Paul states his preference: he would rather be with the Lord. But he doesn't necessarily mean to say that as soon as he is absent from the body he is immediately present with the Lord.
John 14:3 Jesus says that in his father's house are many mansions. Some people mistakenly think Jesus is talking about heaven. He isn't.
John 17:24 Jesus asks the father that his disciples be where he is when he is glorified. When is Jesus glorified? Refer to 2 Thessalonians 1:10. When he says this, he is standing on earth.

 

[rwb]

Ecclesiastes 12:7 specifies the location of the body and the spirit after we die. But it doesn't say that the spirit has a conscious existence.
1 Corinthians 15:44 postulates two kinds of bodies - a natural body and a spiritual body. But the term "natrual" doesn't connote "physical". In other words, Paul contrasts the body's source, not the body's essence. The spiritual body is a physical body that comes into existence by supernatural means.
2 Corinthians 5:8 Paul states his preference: he would rather be with the Lord. But he doesn't necessarily mean to say that as soon as he is absent from the body he is immediately present with the Lord.
John 14:3 Jesus says that in his father's house are many mansions. Some people mistakenly think Jesus is talking about heaven. He isn't.
John 17:24 Jesus asks the father that his disciples be where he is when he is glorified. When is Jesus glorified? Refer to 2 Thessalonians 1:10. When he says this, he is standing on earth.

Solomon tells us the spirit returns to God who gave it, and we learn from Christ that life we receive from Him is everlasting and shall never die. Christ knew that all mortal flesh is destined to die, so the life we receive from Him that is everlasting and shall never die is life we have through His Spirit within us. And we read that when we have the Spirit of Christ within He will not leave us, but give us everlasting life until redemption of our body, that which Christ purchased through His atoning blood.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Paul tells us that when our natural physical body, of flesh like the first Adam dies, the body raised is a spiritual body like that of Christ that is heavenly/celestial and according to Christ shall be as are the angels of God in heaven. Paul says this is true because their is both a natural, physical body, and a spiritual body of believers. That which is called a natural body of believers is of the earth, and that which shall come after the physical body dies is not natural, being supernaturally alive through Christ's Spirit in us. Our physical body resurrected will not become a spiritual body, because a spirit cannot be seen and is not made for life on this earth or the new earth to come. When His disciples saw Christ resurrected they thought they had seen a spirit so Christ tells them:

Luke 24:37-39 (KJV) But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

On the new earth where we shall be when we are physically resurrected immortal & incorruptible when the last trumpet sounds will be flesh & bone, it will not be spirit. I believe we will then be as we were when God created mankind. Having physical body of flesh & bone, with a breath of life (spirit within) and once again we shall be living souls fit for everlasting life on the new earth.

Paul gives a little more clarity for his belief that he would be spiritually present with the Lord after his body dies. Where Paul leaves no doubt that he believed that through the Spirit of Christ, when his body of flesh is dead, Christ will still be magnified in his body. Not a body of flesh of course, that is dead. But in spiritual body in heaven the Lord will still be magnified through the spiritual body of believers. That's why Paul says, "whether it be by life, or by death" Christ shall be magnified.

Philippians 1:20-24 (KJV) According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

If Christ were talking about His disciples being with Him when He is glorified, why does He tell them they would be with Him where He is? For that matter why did He say He was going to the Father to prepare a place for them? Why also when speaking of His resurrection did Christ tell the seven brothers who questioned Him about the resurrection that after physical death we are as the angels of God in heaven, and in the resurrection the dead are raised up like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob now are, because God is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living?

John 14:3 (KJV) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Mark 12:26-27 (KJV) And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

 

[Davidpt]

I don't mind questions David, in fact I love them especially if I believe my answer will be helpful. But discussions such as they are can only be beneficial if both sides give answers for what appears to be inconsistencies or contradictions found with the doctrines we hold. You say above you only ask these questions because you want to prove Premil. You say it doesn't fit Amil, but you don't address the arguments against Premil if all you do is ask questions trying to prove Premil.


David, we don't learn the Bible by isolating particular passages and verses. The Bible cannot be rightly understood without searching out the answer from other corresponding passages and verses. According to vss 14-15 the passage from 1Th 4 is about the coming of the Lord. Where else in Scripture can you find passages and verses to help you understand all that shall come to pass when the Lord comes again? You want to know if I think its reasonable that a resurrection of the lost can't happen until at least all of the lost are dead first?

Rev 20:7-15 might be able to help you.

Roger, you're missing the point. How can there be any of these alleged inconsistencies in Premil when the texts involved appear to be supporting Premil not Amil?

For example, something I have brought up a million times already---and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(revelation 20:4). How does that remotely support Amil when this proves that the 42 month reign of the beast cannot be after the thousand years?

The point being, Christ obviously, thus undeniably, returns at the end of the 42 month reign. How can He do that per Amil if the 42 month reign can't even fit after the thousand years? If it could, obviously I would be Amil not Premil in that case. It would be a no-brainer IOW, since the 42 month reign of the beast occurs in this age not after Christ has returned instead. Therefore, if the 42 month reign of the beast could logically fit after the thousand years, that alone debunks Premil, period. Except it can't logically fit after the thousand years, and what I brought up per Revelation 20:4 above undeniably proves it.

 

[PinSeeker]

Did you understand my point about representation?

Ahhh… Yes, I understood your, um… point. Yes. I did. :)



Grace and peace to you, CadyAndZoe.

 

[Davidpt]

Solomon tells us the spirit returns to God who gave it

As to that, how you have been understanding that is how I also have basically been understanding that. But lately I'm thinking there might be another way to understand that, thus it it is not meaning what you and I have been taking it to mean.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

IMO, the breath of life is meaning this same spirit that returns to God who gave it. IOW, this spirit is an outside source, and without it, no one is able to be alive. It might be likened to God exhaling, thus one is alive, but once He inhales, the person is no longer alive, thus are dead. Which results in the breath of life returning to God who gave it. And not, that everyone's spirit returns to God when they die, which would have to include the unsaved since one can't cherry pick here and insist only saved spirits retuen to God who gave it but unsaved spirits don't. IOW, this is being applied universally and has zero to do with whether a person is saved or not. Everyone when they die, saved or unsaved, the spirit, the breath of life, returns to God who gave it.

I haven't made this my position yet. Currently my position is still the same as yours. I'm basically thinking through some of this right now since I don't see it making sense that even the lost when they die, their spirit returns to God in heaven who gave it. Since God is in heaven not in hell, for a spirit to return to Him has to mean it returns to heaven.

If nothing else, maybe @CadyandZoe grasps where I'm coming from here and that it makes sense to him, I don't know.

 

[JBO]

On the new earth where we shall be when we are physically resurrected immortal & incorruptible when the last trumpet sounds will be flesh & bone, it will not be spirit. I believe we will then be as we were when God created mankind. Having physical body of flesh & bone, with a breath of life (spirit within) and once again we shall be living souls fit for everlasting life on the new earth.

Why didn't God do that in the first place instead of creating it such that most of all humanity will end up eternally condemned?

 

[rwb]

For example, something I have brought up a million times already---and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(revelation 20:4). How does that remotely support Amil when this proves that the 42 month reign of the beast cannot be after the thousand years?

I've already replied to this question David. I replied by asking you if you believe the beast and his mark are only for the last days? This may not be my verbatim original question but very close to it. When you answer my question, then we may be able to discuss your belief that I assume you believe will have the beast and his mark during a literal time of 42 months?

 

[Timtofly]

In my view, the "soul" is not the third part of a Tripartite being. The "soul" is the unification of the body and the Spirit, having a personal history, an occupation, and a family line. A "soul" is a life lived. My "soul" is who I am, which includes everything about me. In Genesis 2, Moses indicates that when God took dust from the ground and breathed into it, Adam became a living "soul". Body + Spirit = Soul.

Both the body and the spirit are integral parts of an individual. Thus, the loss of either one leads to the loss of the person as a whole. This can be compared to a mousetrap, where the loss of even a single part results in its destruction. For instance, if the trap arm is missing, the mousetrap becomes incapable of catching mice, and hence, it ceases to function as a mousetrap.

When Adam and Eve physically died, they ceased to be Adam and Eve. This is why it says that the rest of the dead were resurrected in order to be judged. Only when Adam and Eve receive a body do they function as Adam and Eve, and consequently, they can be judged.

Since the dead are seen, they have bodies. And since they have bodies, they were resurrected.


I don't see that. Paul says we all go together at the last Trumpet. Since you place it earlier the rest of your argument falls apart.

Then you don't accept the bodily resurrection at the Cross per Matthew 27.

You can function only as a soul. The OT redeemed waited in Abraham's bosom only as a soul without a body and spirit.

So God cannot see the souls in sheol? Do those currently in sheol have a physical body?

My argument is that the soul is physically dead with or without a physical body, because this flesh itself is called "mortal" meaning death. Humanity should pick another word to describe this "mortal" body besides "mortal" per your argument.

You can argue with Scripture over whether the body returns to dust or is literally in sheol so they can see each other. That has never been my point.

Humans are only their soul, and obviously don't need a body nor spirit to actually exist. Comparing humans to a mouse trap is not even close to what Scripture indicates. Can a mouse trap be dead even with all it's parts? Is it alive and can it think for itself? Your argument falls apart, because a soul is already in a state of death, in a mortal body that means dead body, and a spirit that becomes a demonic spirit is already dead, yet has a purpose to possess another soul. And a legion of demonic spirits can possess one soul. Luke 8

We know the soul separates from the body, and can do just fine at that point. The body is left behind and normally in a casket until placed into the ground. Are you arguing there is another body the soul enters into in sheol? Do you have a verse from the Bible to that affect? If so, then why argue against the soul having God's permanent incorruptible physical body currently in Paradise? The OT redeemed have had that physical body since the Cross, and are physically enjoying Paradise, which is my argument.

Of course I place a resurrection earlier. The 7th Trumpet did not sound the day Jesus was crucified on the Cross. I don't base my argument on the fact a soul needs a body. I base my argument on the point God gives the soul a permanent incorruptible physical body from the writings of Paul. 2 Corinthians 5:1.

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

The only dead people are those alive on the earth at the Second Coming. They are still in a mortal body of death. Paul was expecting to be changed. The second birth does not give us a new incorruptible permanent physical body without sin. The Second Birth means we have submitted to the will of the Holy Spirit which is a substitute for our spirit which is in God's presence. Our spirit is not dead nor in us. We lost the spirit when Adam and Eve died the day Adam disobeyed God. The spirit is not air. The spirit is light. Psalms 104:4

"Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:"

The Greek word for spirit may mean air, but the Scriptural term is associated with a flaming fire, which is light. Even Daniel wrote about the rejoining of the spirit:

"And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

How can a human shine like a star unless they have put on their spirit? This is mentioned as being after the Second Coming by Jesus Himself. Matthew 13:41-43

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Jesus had his spirit even at conception in Mary's womb. We could not see it because we are spiritually blind. But Jesus took Peter, James , and John alone on a mountain and showed them His Spirit. His body and raiment became as bright as the sun. Our spirit is a bright light that is put on over the physical body. Our spirit is not dead, because a dead spirit is a demon. That is why Paul said to keep blameless the whole soul, body, and spirit. A reprobate soul, turns a spirit of light into a demonic spirit. Then both are considered in a state of unrepentance that is more likely than not irreversible.

My point is that Adam and Eve lost both their physical body of life and their spirit was taken away causing both physical and spiritual death. Physical death was just the soul leaving the body, which returns to dust per other Scripture. Adam was placed in a body of death, and that physical body of death was passed down through Seth and all children born after Seth. My proof is Genesis 5:1-3

"This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:"

Adam and Eve were in God's image. But they physically and spiritually died. Seth was born in Adam's dead image. So has everyone else who was born after Seth. That is why we are mortals and need the Holy Spirit to be right with God.

I don’t see it as an original sin passed down. Adam and Eve passed down the physical body of death genetically generation after generation. God's restoration is a totally different physical body without corruption. Adam and Eve had that physical body but lost it through Adam's disobedience.

Sin and death started the day Adam disobeyed, but the physical aspect was also death, seperate from the concept of sin and death that we attribute to being lost and outside of God's will. That does not change dying thou shalt die. They did die because God removed their soul from a physical body of life and placed their soul in a physical body of death, just like God promised. It was as instantaneous as the rapture will be, when Paul declared we are changed back at the Second Coming. Paul was not talking about those physically passed on to heaven or sheol. Paul was talking about those alive but in a state of death, per Adam's disobedience.

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

"The dead" are not those that "sleep". The dead are those alive changed at the Second Coming. Those that sleep have already been changed, because death cannot enter Paradise. The subject is about those not asleep, but those alive on the earth.

We shall not all sleep, physically die.

We shall all be changed at the last trump.

We are the dead raised incorruptible, that is the change.

The change at death is not painful but instant, the pain prior to death makes that change seem unbearable. The change at the Second Coming will be instant and not felt at all, just like Adam and Eve were instantly changed and took a few moments for them to realize they were now in a state of death instead of life. They did not feel a change. They noticed the absence of the spirit covering their physical body. God had to tell them they were now in a state of death, along with pain and suffering.

 

[rwb]

As to that, how you have been understanding that is how I also have basically been understanding that. But lately I'm thinking there might be another way to understand that, thus it it is not meaning what you and I have been taking it to mean.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

IMO, the breath of life is meaning this same spirit that returns to God who gave it. IOW, this spirit is an outside source, and without it, no one is able to be alive. It might be likened to God exhaling, thus one is alive, but once He inhales, the person is no longer alive, thus are dead. Which results in the breath of life returning to God who gave it. And not, that everyone's spirit returns to God when they die, which would have to include the unsaved since one can't cherry pick here and insist only saved spirits retuen to God who gave it but unsaved spirits don't. IOW, this is being applied universally and has zero to do with whether a person is saved or not. Everyone when they die, saved or unsaved, the spirit, the breath of life, returns to God who gave it.

I haven't made this my position yet. Currently my position is still the same as yours. I'm basically thinking through some of this right now since I don't see it making sense that even the lost when they die, their spirit returns to God in heaven who gave it. Since God is in heaven not in hell, for a spirit to return to Him has to mean it returns to heaven.

If nothing else, maybe @CadyandZoe grasps where I'm coming from here and that it makes sense to him, I don't know.

When I looked at the defining of 'breath of life' I discovered when God breathed into man the breath of life is spirit within that gives every living breathing creature upon the earth physical life.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

God created a physical body from the dust of the earth, and breathed life (spirit) into them and man became a living soul.

The breath breathed into man from God is spirit. It is what returns to God when our body breathes its last.

Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
5397. נְשָׁמָה neshamah (nᵉshâmâh)
Search for H5397 in KJVSL; in KJV.
נְשָׁמָה nᵉshâmâh, nesh-aw-maw'
from H5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal:—blast, (that) breath(-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

The spirit in every human returns to God, but only the spirit indwelt with the Holy Spirit from Christ returns to Him with life, still a living soul, but without physical form is a spiritual body of believers together in heaven. The spirit of man who dies in unbelief the Bible says is in silence and darkness in death. Only the spirit in man that has been born again through the Spirit from Christ HAS eternal/everlasting life and shall NEVER die. Scripture tells us that's because the life-giving Spirit from Christ will not leaven the faithful spirit in man until the redemption of the purchased possession that is a physical body resurrected immortal & incorruptible when the last trumpet sounds.

Ephesians 1:12-14 (KJV) That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[Davidpt]

I've already replied to this question David. I replied by asking you if you believe the beast and his mark are only for the last days? This may not be my verbatim original question but very close to it. When you answer my question, then we may be able to discuss your belief that I assume you believe will have the beast and his mark during a literal time of 42 months?

Maybe I missed reading that post since I don't recall you asking this. But to answer it now, of course that's what I believe since that is what the book of Revelation has me believing, that this is relevant, meaning this 42 month reign of the beast, only in the final days of this age. Regardless, what anything might look like when being fulfilled is not the point, the timing of these events are the point. Until a beast rises out of the sea, meaning to me it rises out of the pit, and it having a deadly wound that is healed, and that a 2nd one rises out of the earth, and then fulfilling what is recorded in Revelation 13:14-15, in the meantime there is no mark one can take or refuse to take. And clearly, John at the time of having seen these visions, he indicated that the beast was to ascend out of the pit in the future, obviously meaning it was currently in the pit when he saw these visions.

If Amils disagree that the 42 month reign of the beast recorded in Revelation 13 does explain the martyrdom recorded in Revelation 20:4---and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---Amils need to produce the Scriptures that do explain that martyrdom rather than just making up stuff without submitting Scriptures that support what they are alleging.

 

[rwb]

Why didn't God do that in the first place instead of creating it such that most of all humanity will end up eternally condemned?

IMO God created mankind with a free will, knowing that man with unfettered free will, would never freely choose to submit to another, not even God although knowing that disobedience to God's command would bring death. Therefore man had to experience sin and it's consequence, death that they might know what is both good and evil. These are things that must be experienced before they could truly understand. So just as the Son of God would be ordained to death, that man might live, so too mankind is ordained to physically die that they too might live forever.

 

[rwb]

Maybe I missed reading that post since I don't recall you asking this. But to answer it now, of course that's what I believe since that is what the book of Revelation has me believing, that this is relevant, meaning this 42 month reign of the beast, only in the final days of this age. Regardless, what anything might look like when being fulfilled is not the point, the timing of these events are the point. Until a beast rises out of the sea, meaning to me it rises out of the pit, and it having a deadly wound that is healed, and that a 2nd one rises out of the earth, and then fulfilling what is recorded in Revelation 13:14-15, in the meantime there is no mark one can take or refuse to take. And clearly, John at the time of having seen these visions, he indicated that the beast was to ascend out of the pit in the future, obviously meaning it was currently in the pit when he saw these visions.

If Amils disagree that the 42 month reign of the beast recorded in Revelation 13 does not explain the martyrdom recorded in Revelation 20:4---and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---Amils need to produce the Scriptures that do explain that martyrdom rather than just making up stuff without submitting Scriptures that support what they are alleging.

Who is the serpent in the Garden of Eden that marked A&E to death through deception, causing them to sin? Revelation is a book filled with symbolic imagery, and as long as you continue to read it with mostly wooden literalism you will never be able to discern it.