They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament

[Zao is life]

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


Look what the text says. for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. What dead shall be changed? The bodies in the graves or something else?

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

What is being meant here? Does it not say all that are all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth? What's in their graves if not the remains of their bodies?

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. Isn't that being applied to the dead that shall come forth out of their graves? So why does it say, that in regards to those in their graves, this mortal must put on immortality, unless their remains are still mortal until they do that? If not, what is the logic in their remains having to put on immortality unless their remains are mortal?

Thank you. I agree 100% with the above. I never heard of a body prepared in heaven before that has no link at all to the body that died and will be raised incorruptible, so your post reminded me of why I never thought like that before @CadyandZoe mentioned it to me in another post. What you say above is 100% clear and makes it 100% clear again.

If nothing else, though soul sleep is not my position, all of this might actually support soul sleep.

Do we have limbs when we go to be with Christ after our bodies have died? What functions could we have without limbs, and how could we even function without limbs? If the human spirit that "fell asleep" in Christ goes to be with Christ (and I believe that is what Paul taught), then to me at best we will still be self-aware, aware of the presence of Christ in us and with us, and aware of the other spirits who had fallen asleep in Christ, and aware of angels, etc.

Personally, I don't think that scripture gives us much to go on - not enough to actually develop any belief written in stone. The only "spiritual body" Paul ever mentioned is the one that he said "is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."(1 Cor 15:44). And we know what body he was talking about. The one we don't have with us "in heaven", and won't have with us "in heaven". I think a separate "body" to that body would be a separate creation - yet God created Adam with a body and soul and He never intended for Adam to die. Jesus IS the resurrection and the life, and He rose in the same body that had died and was glorified and rose again from the dead a glorified body.

And speaking of something like that, Christians that oppose soul sleep, some of them do the strangest things at times, seemingly contradicting what they are opposing. When a loved one dies, for example, some of them go and visit their graves and even talk to them there. But why if they don't even think the person is in their graves but are in heaven instead? Not meaning bodily of course. Their body is still in the grave but their soul and or spirit are in heaven according to Christian thinking. So why are they talking to the person as if they are in their grave rather than they being in heaven living on in an disembodied state instead? If they want to talk to them they should be looking up not looking down at their grave.

I think it's a case of "the last place I saw you" and it's a psychological need for some to help endure the separation, and the visitor's way of a mark of showing respect for the person. I think God understands, though I agree with what you say about it.

I also think that for some, the more Roman Catholic a person is in one's religious mindset, the more they'll tend to believe that dead things like decaying bodies and statues can somehow be a conduit for their prayers to whoever. I don't even want to think of how close some people feel to "Mother Mary" and other "patron saints" when they pray to statues of them. That's probably why we read about these reports of "apparitions". Makes one wonder who's tricking who.

 

[Zao is life]

As to that, isn't it possible that the literal sense is not meant but is meaning something similar to the following, for example?

Genesis 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Of course though, one then needs to explain these white robes that were given unto every one of them, if deciding to interpret the souls per the 5th seal in the same manner one might interpret Genesis 4:10 in. But then again, since the white robes are not literally meaning white robes that someone actually wears, expecially someone in a disembodied state, as if it makes sense they actually put on literal white robes and wear them, maybe interpreting this in the same manner as Genesis 4:10 might be plauable after all.

Well Jesus spoke of Abraham's bosom and hades, and the jury is out on whether He did not mean souls go places when their bodies died, but he also said,

"Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak of Myself, but the Father who dwells in Me, He does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the very works themselves." (John 14:10-11).

"Yet a little while and the world does not see Me any more. But you see Me. Because I live, you shall live also. At that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." (John 14:19-20).

but I prefer to allow Paul to have the last word on it, and I don't interpret what he said in any other way except the plain meaning of what he said:

"For to me to live [záō] is Christ, and to die [apothnesko] is gain. But if I live [záō] in the flesh [sarx], this is the fruit of my labor. Yet I do not know what I shall choose. For I am pressed together by the two: having a desire to depart and to be with Christ, which is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more needful for you." (Philippians 1:20-24).

".. for we walk by faith, not by sight; then we are confident and we are pleased rather to go away from home out of the body, and to come home to the Lord. Therefore we are also laboring to be well-pleasing to Him, whether at home or away from home." (2 Corinthians 5:1-9 - a shortened the quote to the ending statement).

It's through His Spirit that through faith in Him we are quickened with Him and raised with Him.

So for me the scale isn't balanced in favor of "we go nowhere and become aware of nothing until the resurrection."

But how we experience it is another thing I don't think I'll know this side of that side, hence why I won't engrave anything in stone.

 

[grafted branch]

When John transitions from the dragon, to Satan, he is going from the symbolism of the dragon to Satan himself. The dragon symbolizes human government in the book of Revelation. Michael does not fight against the historical human government. Michael fights against Satan and his angels.

Would you say Michael fights against symbolism or the literal?

In Revelation 12:7 it clearly states Michael and his angels fought the dragon. You have the dragon symbolizing human government, then you go on to say Michael doesn’t fight human government but he does fight Satan. Obviously then the dragon is Satan and not human government, regardless of what other symbolism is present in the verse. You could argue the seven heads are human government as it doesn’t say Michael fought the heads, only the dragon.

You need to change how you’re interpreting this so it at least agrees with what the Bible says. Interpreting this way is only going to lead to confusion, could we say the Lamb of God isn’t Jesus because the Lamb symbolizes sheep and Jesus is the Shepherd? No, we shouldn’t question the Bible when John the Baptist says behold the Lamb of God, he is specifically referring to Jesus.

We should not be attempting to change the scriptures, instead we need to adjust our view. There are many verses that may have several different meanings but to say something like Michael didn’t fight the dragon when it clearly says he did is not acceptable.

 

[JBO]

It is very much physical. Christ rose with such a body and he was touched, touched things himself and even ate food.

Who said Jesus rose with such a body? He certainly didn't make such a statement.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Who said Jesus rose with such a body? He certainly didn't make such a statement.

This lack is shameful !

Luke 24:36-42
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, AS YE SEE ME HAVE.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them .

 

[ewq1938]

Who said Jesus rose with such a body?

The bible says.

Php_3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

 

[PinSeeker]

The bottom line is that God created man with body and spirit united and without sin and in communion with Him. This is the state Adam and then Eve were in before the fall in Genesis 3. And this is the state we will all be in in the new Heaven and new Earth.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Timtofly]

I do understand 2 Corinthians 5:1-10. There are not two different physical bodies presented there. There is the "earthly home" and the heavenly dwelling. We know the earthly home is the physical body. We learn from 1 Corinthians 15 that the heavenly dwelling is spiritual not physical.

And even more than that, there is absolutely nothing in this entire universe that is "incorruptible". That is just a fact of the chemical/biological makeup of the universe.

No, I do not claim that at all. First, bodies are not sin infested even now in this life. The problem of sin is not its effect on the body, but rather its effect upon the spirit, or soul if you prefer. Second, as I have noted, we know from 1 Corinthians 15 that in the resurrection we are given spiritual bodies, not physical bodies.

No, I don't think anything like that at all. Jesus' body after being raised from the tomb was the same old body that He died with. It was raised to life. His physical life was restored. He demonstrated that to Thomas (John 20:24-29). But He no longer has that body. He was ascended into heaven. There is nothing physical in heaven. It is a spiritual realm, not the physical realm of this universe.

We are not told the condition of Lazarus, other than he was dead and Jesus raised him to life again. You can believe whatever you want but beyond Lazarus being physically dead, his condition is not revealed.

In the resurrection, the resurrection body is neither physical nor corruptible. It is spiritual.

Paul said the difference was between natural and spiritual, not physical and spiritual. Natural means from Adam and Eve through Shem, Ham, and Japheth and all of their offspring, other humans. Spiritual means of God, both still a physical body. Even the Holy Spirit is more than just air we breath in and out. The word "spirit" has many different meanings depending on context.

The soul, body, and spirit make up a person as a son of God.

Paul said in the resurrection, which is immediate, that the soul puts on a permanent incorruptible physical body, and at the Second Coming the completion is putting on the spirit, restoring us whole, soul, body, and spirit as sons of God. The soul leaving death behind for life.

Paul always framed it as putting something on.

When it comes to Lazarus, Jesus did tell us how Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom.

There is no division of creation into realms. Perhaps you think there are dimensions to reality as well? The physical and spiritual make up reality equally. You and everyone else living on earth are spiritually blind and cannot see the spiritual all around us. Paul says we do not wrestle against the physical. How do you think we do that if we are stuck on earth, and you have the spiritual way up above us somewhere? Ephesians 6:2

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

Do you think at the Second Coming, Jesus just changes back into a physical body on demand? Jesus has that permanent incorruptible physical body just as Paul described in 2 Corinthians 5:1. Jesus always had that permanent incorruptible physical body since conception in the womb of Mary. The same body He had when He spoke the world into existence in Genesis 1. The Word did become flesh and was always that flesh since conception. John 1

 

[JBO]

Paul said the difference was between natural and spiritual, not physical and spiritual. Natural means from Adam and Eve through Shem, Ham, and Japheth and all of their offspring, other humans.

That is physical, corporal, material. It is composed of flesh and blood.

1Co 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Thanks. I had to remove some because of my thousand character limit. I haven't thought about a body in heaven. I'd have to think a lot about that and do some more scripture research before I can agree or disagree, but I agree with what you say about the soul in your first reply (the way you describe what it is), and maybe I should have used the word spirit rather than "soul" when talking about our spirits going to be with Christ when we die.

​

I liked your presentation very much. Thank you. Many others could benefit from such a careful and thoughtful presentation. I hope others read it.

Just for interest, I would like to share another related passage.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

I was reminded of this verse as we were having our discussion. In a humorous way, Paul seems to say that it takes a really sharp sword to tell the difference between the soul and the spirit. So no wonder we seem to get them mixed up a bit. :)

In a serious way, of course, Paul is talking about God's promises -- his word. Some people think Paul is talking about the scriptures or the Bible. We always talk about the Bible as "God's word" and it is. But here in Hebrews, Paul is talking about a promise God made to the Hebrews. And that promise has a way to expose our inner thoughts, commitments, beliefs, and attitudes. God gave them his word, and that promise has a tendency to expose our true feelings and thoughts.

Paul is talking about entering God's rest through belief in his son. All the apostles, including Paul, emphasize the fact that our eternal destiny depends on how we respond to Jesus. Our reaction to God's word, his promise, exposes our inner self -- who we are and what motivates us.

Anyway, thanks for such a rewarding discussion. Since I have the day off, I decided to add that part above. Have a great year in 2024. May the Lord richly bless you.

 

[JBO]

This lack is shameful !

Luke 24:36-42
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, AS YE SEE ME HAVE.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them .

The body that Jesus is describing there is the exact same body that He was crucified with. That was his point. There is nothing in all of that to even suggest that His raised body was spiritual and incorruptible. in the sense of 1 Corinthians 15:44. It was only in His ascension that He was glorified and could be considered to be as described as spiritual and incorruptible.

Joh 17:4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

The glory that He had with God before the world existed was not in the physical (natural) body of the earthly human being.

Heb 2:7 You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor,
Heb 2:8 putting everything in subjection under his feet." Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him.
Heb 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

He was made lower than the angels for a little while, not forever.

 

[CadyandZoe]

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


Look what the text says. for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. What dead shall be changed? The bodies in the graves or something else?

As far as I know, considering the past 2000 years, it is safe to say that most of the dead in Christ no longer have bodies. Each body turns to dust eventually, as God said. Given that fact, I don't think Paul wanted us to overly focus on the details. He intends us to focus on the broader implications of his main ideas.

The main point in the passage is that all those who are in Christ will be transformed, whether they have already passed away or whether they are still alive. If we try to imagine what this transformation might look like, we may become overwhelmed with a complicated image that detracts from the profound idea that Paul is trying to convey.

My friends and mentor often remind me not to approach a passage with my own agenda, trying to force Paul to answer what I want to know. Instead, I should let Paul teach me what he wants to teach me.

I don't think Paul intends to answer our question about our current bodies. His point is to say that all of us will be given an entirely new body that has some continuity with our current body but is essentially entirely different.

The word 'raised' literally means 'to stand up' just like Jesus stood up from lying in a tomb and walked out. However, considering that most of Jesus' followers from the past will have turned into dust, they won't literally 'stand up' and walk around. Presumably, God will recreate each person anew, but this is just speculation. We don't know how God will do it, but all of Jesus' followers will be with him, alive and transformed when we see him again. That is the main point.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

What is being meant here? Does it not say all that are all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth? What's in their graves if not the remains of their bodies?

shall hear his voice
How can a deceased person perceive the voice of Jesus? Do the dead have the ability to hear? Can a pile of dust that lacks a brain and ears hear anything? Presumably, Jesus didn't intend to imply that people literally hear His voice summoning them from the tomb. In the case of Lazarus, Jesus called out to him to come out of the tomb, and he did. However, Jesus ultimately revealed the purpose behind His public command for Lazarus to emerge. During the call, it was demonstrated that Jesus had been granted the authority by the Father to bring someone back to life. This was for the benefit of his kinsmen, and it proves that the dead will rise again at the command of Jesus.

all that are in the graves
If you highlighted the phrase to emphasize the location of the dead when the call goes out, then I agree. The dead are being called from their graves, not from heaven or any other location. I believe that Jesus meant to emphasize that he will call not only the good but also the evil. This seems to echo a Biblical theme, where the same event will have two distinct implications depending on how one is situated towards it

So why does it say, that in regards to those in their graves, this mortal must put on immortality, unless their remains are still mortal until they do that?

Yes, I see your point. Paul does seem to refer to the dead as "mortal." But I don't think that is what he meant to say.

and this mortal must put on immortality.
Here, Paul uses a demonstrative adjective, which indicates the relative position of the speaker. When he says "this mortal," he refers to himself and his own body. It's like he is standing there talking to us and pointing to his body. He says, "This mortal [body} must put on immortality", referring to himself. The main point is to highlight the quiddity of the resurrected saints. Whether dead or alive they will become living, eternal beings.

I agree with your main point, which seems focused on the quiddity of the dead, which is a profound loss of our essential nature.

 

[rwb]

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


Look what the text says. for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. What dead shall be changed? The bodies in the graves or something else?

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

What is being meant here? Does it not say all that are all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth? What's in their graves if not the remains of their bodies?

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. Isn't that being applied to the dead that shall come forth out of their graves? So why does it say, that in regards to those in their graves, this mortal must put on immortality, unless their remains are still mortal until they do that? If not, what is the logic in their remains having to put on immortality unless their remains are mortal? If nothing else, though soul sleep is not my position, all of this might actually support soul sleep.

And speaking of something like that, Christians that oppose soul sleep, some of them do the strangest things at times, seemingly contradicting what they are opposing. When a loved one dies, for example, some of them go and visit their graves and even talk to them there. But why if they don't even think the person is in their graves but are in heaven instead? Not meaning bodily of course. Their body is still in the grave but their soul and or spirit are in heaven according to Christian thinking. So why are they talking to the person as if they are in their grave rather than they being in heaven living on in an disembodied state instead? If they want to talk to them they should be looking up not looking down at their grave.

David, now you are showing you have the same understanding of the faithful dead that John was shown in the vision of Rev 20. These souls John says are alive after they have physically died are a spiritual body of believers in heaven, called souls, because they are alive. They will not be complete living soul again until the last trumpet sounds in an hour coming. John says they are alive after physical death because during their lives in this period of time symbolized a thousand years they lived and reigned with the Lord.

Paul says the same thing, knowing there is still spiritual life after death he longed to physically die so he could belong to a spiritual body of believers in heaven because that is where the Lord now is since He ascended there. So, Paul writes in 1Co 15 that when our natural body dies, it is raised (not resurrected being indwelt with the Spirit of Christ, never dies) a spiritual body to be with the Lord in heaven. Because mankind has both a natural physical body of the earth, like that of the first Adam, and faithful man shall also supernaturally become a spiritual body of believers in heaven after death, like Christ heavenly/celestial/like the angels of God in heaven. Where we will be until an hour coming on the earth at the end of this time symbolized a thousand years, when the last trumpet sounds, and our mortal, physically dead body will be resurrected and made alive again through the spiritual body that will return with Christ. Then mankind will once again become as they were created in the beginning before sin and death through sin became part of life on this earth. Then having become immortal & incorruptible bodies of flesh & bone, with eternal spirit, faithful man will live with Christ forever on the new earth.

John also writes of others who shall during their lives also reign with Christ during this same time symbolize a thousand years. They are not numbered with those who had already died in faith because some have even yet been born. But John writes they too shall be blessed and holy, overcome the second death and have part in the first resurrection. Because to have part in the first resurrection is to have part in the resurrection life of Christ who is the first resurrection from the grave to never die again.

 

[rwb]

I don't have a set-in-stone "belief" about what happens after the death of the body but somehow I don't see scripture NOT saying that believers who "fall asleep in Christ" will be present with Christ, but maybe that's just my bias talking.

Exactly FOG! That's exactly what John is telling us in Rev 20. Those who physically die in faith, through His Spirit in us continue to be a spiritual body of believers still living souls after physical death because the life we have through Christ is through our eternal spirit, not our physical, mortal bodies destined to die.

These saints lived and reigned with Christ on the earth before they died during this time symbolized a thousand years.

 

[rwb]

As to that, isn't it possible that the literal sense is not meant but is meaning something similar to the following, for example?

Genesis 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Of course though, one then needs to explain these white robes that were given unto every one of them, if deciding to interpret the souls per the 5th seal in the same manner one might interpret Genesis 4:10 in. But then again, since the white robes are not literally meaning white robes that someone actually wears, expecially someone in a disembodied state, as if it makes sense they actually put on literal white robes and wear them, maybe interpreting this in the same manner as Genesis 4:10 might be plauable after all.

You show you understand the symbolism being under the altar as their blood crying out after death. The altar is where the blood of animals was shed for one's sins to be atoned for. It was the altar that is Christ that these martyred saints were symbolically under. They could not be raised a spiritual body before Christ went to the cross to make atonement for sin.

Hebrews 13:10-12 (KJV) We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

The white robes symbolically show they died as righteous, pure saints while waiting for the promised Messiah/Redeemer to come to rescue them from the dead.

Revelation 3:4-5 (KJV) Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

That these are Old Covenant faithful saints is shown because John writes only that are the "souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:" There is no mention of being witnesses to the man called Jesus in this passage as we find in Rev 20. That's because the Old Covenant faithful knew of Him only as a/the Messiah who would come, but they died before His coming to earth a man. There is nowhere in the Old Testament the name Jesus to be found. None knew that name until His birth and they called His name JESUS.

Matthew 1:21 (KJV) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

 

[grafted branch]

2 Timothy 2:17-18 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.


A friend who is Premil brought up these verses to me and said it proves the first resurrection is not a spiritual resurrection. His argument was that Hymenaeus and Philetus obviously weren’t talking about the final resurrection because people obviously know they are walking around on the physical earth prior to the millennium, so Hymenaeus and Philetus were talking about the first resurrection as if it was already happening.

I argued that Hymenaeus and Philetus were referring to the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrection that had passed, already happened, and they were claiming it was the one and only resurrection which meant everyone still on earth had missed it.

My friend pointed out that the word “passed” in KJV is <1096> and some translations say “taken place” as in something that has came into being or become, which is how it is mostly translated elsewhere. I’ve never taken a close look at that word so I looked it up and this is what it says …





<1096> ginomai



Definition: to come into being, to happen, to become

Usage: I come into being, am born, become, come about, happen.





I’m by no means an expert on Greek, but it does look like this word can be used to mean an on going resurrection. I’m not sure if my friend is right or not about this.

I don’t want to start a new thread, as this thread is already discussing the resurrections. So for anyone who wants to chime in, what resurrection was Hymenaeus and Philetus referring to and why were they wrong about it?

 

[rwb]

2 Timothy 2:17-18 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

A friend who is Premil brought up these verses to me and said it proves the first resurrection is not a spiritual resurrection. His argument was that Hymenaeus and Philetus obviously weren’t talking about the final resurrection because people obviously know they are walking around on the physical earth prior to the millennium, so Hymenaeus and Philetus were talking about the first resurrection as if it was already happening.

I argued that Hymenaeus and Philetus were referring to the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrection that had passed, already happened, and they were claiming it was the one and only resurrection which meant everyone still on earth had missed it.

My friend pointed out that the word “passed” in KJV is <1096> and some translations say “taken place” as in something that has came into being or become, which is how it is mostly translated elsewhere. I’ve never taken a close look at that word so I looked it up and this is what it says …

<1096> ginomai

Definition: to come into being, to happen, to become

Usage: I come into being, am born, become, come about, happen.

I’m by no means an expert on Greek, but it does look like this word can be used to mean an on going resurrection. I’m not sure if my friend is right or not about this.

I don’t want to start a new thread, as this thread is already discussing the resurrections. So for anyone who wants to chime in, what resurrection was Hymenaeus and Philetus referring to and why were they wrong about it?

I am not Premillennial, but I agree the "first resurrection" is the bodily resurrection of Christ. When we have part in Christ through His Spirit and have been born again, we have part in His first resurrection life which means we have gone from being spiritually dead in trespasses and sins to know and enter the spiritual Kingdom of God. Since the life we have through the Spirit of Christ within us is eternal or everlasting life, when our physical body dies, it is raised a spiritual body of believers to heaven. That's why John sees alive those who had died in faith as souls in heaven. They are the same spiritual body of believers that were physically alive on earth before they died, and since the spirit in men/women of faith never dies, they are after death a spiritual body of believers in heaven to be where Christ is.

The saints of Christ after physical death will be a spiritual body of believers in heaven until an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. Then Christ returns bringing with Him the spiritual body in heaven to resurrect our body of flesh to be immortal & incorruptible and made alive again through the eternal spirit that returns with Christ. Because we cannot be complete living soul without both a body of flesh with the breath of life that is our spirit.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The only bodily resurrection mentioned in this passage is the physical resurrection of Christ. Since there is no written evidence of such a great miracle recorded in Scripture, I don't believe Hymenaeus and Philetus could have been referring to what is described here. A bodily resurrection from the graves would have been widely known, but many believed through these false teachers that Christ had already returned and they not only missed His coming, but also missed being caught up to meet the Lord in the air. They seem to have believed this event was a secret coming in Spirit, not Christ physically coming again. That's how they were able to overthrow the faith of some.

Matthew 27:51-53 (KJV) And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

There is found written in the Bible evidence that saints who remain faithful unto death live on in heaven after death, recorded as "souls" being a spiritual body of believers there. Also, evidence of the holy city, new Jerusalem in heaven, where there are hordes of the heavenly hosts to witness their spiritual appearance there.

 

[Davidpt]

David, now you are showing you have the same understanding of the faithful dead that John was shown in the vision of Rev 20. These souls John says are alive after they have physically died are a spiritual body of believers in heaven, called souls, because they are alive. They will not be complete living soul again until the last trumpet sounds in an hour coming. John says they are alive after physical death because during their lives in this period of time symbolized a thousand years they lived and reigned with the Lord.

Paul says the same thing, knowing there is still spiritual life after death he longed to physically die so he could belong to a spiritual body of believers in heaven because that is where the Lord now is since He ascended there. So, Paul writes in 1Co 15 that when our natural body dies, it is raised (not resurrected being indwelt with the Spirit of Christ, never dies) a spiritual body to be with the Lord in heaven. Because mankind has both a natural physical body of the earth, like that of the first Adam, and faithful man shall also supernaturally become a spiritual body of believers in heaven after death, like Christ heavenly/celestial/like the angels of God in heaven. Where we will be until an hour coming on the earth at the end of this time symbolized a thousand years, when the last trumpet sounds, and our mortal, physically dead body will be resurrected and made alive again through the spiritual body that will return with Christ. Then mankind will once again become as they were created in the beginning before sin and death through sin became part of life on this earth. Then having become immortal & incorruptible bodies of flesh & bone, with eternal spirit, faithful man will live with Christ forever on the new earth.

John also writes of others who shall during their lives also reign with Christ during this same time symbolize a thousand years. They are not numbered with those who had already died in faith because some have even yet been born. But John writes they too shall be blessed and holy, overcome the second death and have part in the first resurrection. Because to have part in the first resurrection is to have part in the resurrection life of Christ who is the first resurrection from the grave to never die again.

Like I already pointed in out in an earlier post, I fully agree saints don't put on bodily immortality until the last trumptet sounds. It simply means this then, when John sees the souls of them, he is seeing them before the time of the last trumpet sounding. When he sees them living again and reigning with Christ a thousand years, he is seeing them after the time of the last trumpet sounding.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(meaning he ; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Let's break this verse down into parts like this.

1) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them

2) and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

3) and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


When is 1) meaning in relation to the last trumpet sounding? The same question for 2) and 3).

As to 2), let's focus on that for a moment and ask ourselves where we are in the timeline of events when John sees the souls of them all, meaning the souls crying out for vengeance and their brethren that were to be killed like they were(Revelation 6 and the 5th seal). Obviously, as of Revelation 20:4 everyone that was to be martyred has been fulfilled at this point, thus no more saints ever being martyred again since John is looking at the completion of that, not the beginning of that.

And the following, for one, proves it.

Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

At this point in time the following has been fulfilled---their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were(Revelation 6:11)---which means no saint will ever be martyred again ever. As of the verses above we are now in the time of God's wrath, meaning the 6th seal. And when John is seeing what he does in Revelation 20:4 he is seeing these things, not before every saint that is to be martyred is martyred, but after every saint that is to be martyred is martyred. Obviously then, he witnesses a transitional state from disembodied to bodily since the martyrdom of saints has been completed as of the beginning of the thousand years.

Even after the thousand years proves no saints are ever martyred again. There are no saints being martyred after the thousand years. Where is that recorded in Revelation 20:7-9 that saints are being martyred during satan's little season? And there certainly are no saints being martyred during the thousand years, either. What does that leave left? Any martyring of saints occurs before the time of the beginning of the thousand years.

Apparently, Amil believes saints are being martyred before the thousand years, during the thousand years, and probably after the thousand years as well. While Premil believes saints are only being martyred before the thousand years, not during it nor after it also. Which view is agreeing with the texts involved? Premil, apparently.

 

[grafted branch]

I am not Premillennial, but I agree the "first resurrection" is the bodily resurrection of Christ. When we have part in Christ through His Spirit and have been born again, we have part in His first resurrection life which means we have gone from being spiritually dead in trespasses and sins to know and enter the spiritual Kingdom of God. Since the life we have through the Spirit of Christ within us is eternal or everlasting life, when our physical body dies, it is raised a spiritual body of believers to heaven. That's why John sees alive those who had died in faith as souls in heaven. They are the same spiritual body of believers that were physically alive on earth before they died, and since the spirit in men/women of faith never dies, they are after death a spiritual body of believers in heaven to be where Christ is.

The saints of Christ after physical death will be a spiritual body of believers in heaven until an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. Then Christ returns bringing with Him the spiritual body in heaven to resurrect our body of flesh to be immortal & incorruptible and made alive again through the eternal spirit that returns with Christ. Because we cannot be complete living soul without both a body of flesh with the breath of life that is our spirit.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The only bodily resurrection mentioned in this passage is the physical resurrection of Christ. Since there is no written evidence of such a great miracle recorded in Scripture, I don't believe Hymenaeus and Philetus could have been referring to what is described here. A bodily resurrection from the graves would have been widely known, but many believed through these false teachers that Christ had already returned and they not only missed His coming, but also missed being caught up to meet the Lord in the air. They seem to have believed this event was a secret coming in Spirit, not Christ physically coming again. That's how they were able to overthrow the faith of some.

Matthew 27:51-53 (KJV) And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

There is found written in the Bible evidence that saints who remain faithful unto death live on in heaven after death, recorded as "souls" being a spiritual body of believers there. Also, evidence of the holy city, new Jerusalem in heaven, where there are hordes of the heavenly hosts to witness their spiritual appearance there.

I was thinking that Hymenaeus and Philetus would’ve been looking at passages such as Ezekiel 37 where there is a resurrection in the valley of dry bones and claiming this was fulfilled.

The thing that caused me to look at this again was the word “passed” <1096> in 2 Timothy 2:18. I guess I need to dig deeper into the Greek to try to understand this better.

 

[rwb]

Like I already pointed in out in an earlier post, I fully agree saints don't put on bodily immortality until the last trumptet sounds. It simply means this then, when John sees the souls of them, he is seeing them before the time of the last trumpet sounding. When he sees them living again and reigning with Christ a thousand years, he is seeing them after the time of the last trumpet sounding.

How is that possible? When the last/seventh trumpet begins to sound there shall be time no longer. Why does John write the they "lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" before they were physically martyred? There is only one bodily resurrection that shall be in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. Then those who have done good in life are resurrected immortal, so they cannot die.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Apparently, Amil believes saints are being martyred before the thousand years, during the thousand years, and probably after the thousand years as well. While Premil believes saints are only being martyred before the thousand years, not during it nor after it also. Which view is agreeing with the texts involved? Premil, apparently.

If you think saints are not, have not been martyred throughout the Old as well as the New Testament period of time, you have not read Hebrews 11 of all who died in faith waiting for the Messiah/Redeemer to come. Amil understands martyrdom is and always has been part of man being faithful to Christ, the Messiah/Redeemer, and that this martyrdom would become "great tribulation" as never before on earth after Christ came in human flesh with the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and the Church on earth would proclaim that the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven would be complete.