They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament

[PinSeeker]

Yes, the first resurrection is the physical resurrection of Christ that every human who desires everlasting life through Him must have part in.

Well, the first physical resurrection is that of Christ, yes. And then the way we have "a part in" that is to be resurrected in spirit, which is the immediate result of being born again of the Spirit.

NONE but Christ are physically resurrected before an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds.

And yes, we will be physically resurrected at Christ's return ~ along with (but immediately prior to) those not in Christ. And then will come the final Judgment, graphically portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15. And regarding Revelation 20, we have to distinguish between ~ somehow :) ~ between the resurrection of verses 11-15 and the resurrection of verses 4-6. Right?

You agree, right? I think @CadyandZoe does... :)

 

[Davidpt]

Right, and resurrected ~ actually resurrected and then ascended, but not physically in either. But made alive, having been formerly dead in our sin. This is a resurrection. Not physical yet, but a resurrection from the dead. It is a raising up from death (in sin) to life (in Christ), and this is indeed a resurrection.

Yet, it is not referring to the first resurrection pertaining to Revelation 20, though. As if it makes sense, that the most imprtant resurrection event, other than Christ's, meaning the bodily resurrection of the saints, that John is not even going to mention that resurrection event in Revelation 20, he's going to mention a spiritual resurrection involving the here and now instead. And there are only 2 resurrection events mentioned in Revelation 20 to begin with, but neither of them are meaning the bodily resurrection of the saints. There is something wrong with that picture.

 

[Zao is life]

Why spiritually? What if Paul is talking about vicarious participation in the Ascension? That is. What if Paul is talking about the fact that Christ ascended to the right hand of the Father to make our appeal for pardon? Do we need to be present in heaven to enjoy that blessing?

John 14:19b-20
"Because I live [záō], you shall live [záō] also. At that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you."

1 Corinthians 8:6
there is to us only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.

Ephesians 4:4-6
There is one body and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in you all.

John 14:19b-20
"Because I live [záō], you shall live [záō] also. At that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you."

02198
ζάω záō, dzah'-o
a primary verb;
to live (literally or figuratively):--life(-time), (a-)live(-ly), quick.

​

Ephesians 2:4-6
"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us (even when we were dead in sins) has made us [syzōopoiéō] alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved), and has [synegeírō] raised us up together and made us sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,

04806 συζωοποιέω syzōopoiéō, sood-zo-op-oy-eh'-o
to reanimate conjointly with (figuratively):--quicken together with.

04891 συνεγείρω synegeírō, soon-eg-i'-ro
to rouse (from death) in company with, i.e. (figuratively) to revivify (spirtually) in resemblance to:--raise up together, rise with.

I believe that Christ is indeed in us in Spirit and we are in Him, so just as much as He is present with us where we are - in Spirit, we are present with Him where He is, but that's as far as I need to understand it. God is omnipresent and Christ in us, His presence with us and with God the Father, and our presence is in Him. I believe it, and this has been my experience by the grace of God.

The term "places" isn't in the Greek text. The translators provided an English word to help the reader (in their opinion.)

It really doesn't matter. God is Spirit and the Spirit of God is omnipresent.

Nevertheless, until their own bodily resurrection, those who have died in Christ will not be found in a body (the way Jesus is), but Christ is risen.

I don't understand what you mean. Can you reword it. :)

I believe that when we die we remain in Christ in our spirit. We remain aware. I do not believe we stop existing until we are raised from the dead bodily. I gather from what you've said that you don't believe this, so there's not much point elaborating on the above.

 

[Davidpt]

That does make sense, what about the resurrection in Daniel 12:2? It does list the resurrection to everlasting life first, then everlasting contempt second, but it looks like it’s considered one resurrection.

Where do Premil place this resurrection? After the millennium?

That appears to be contradicting what I'm arguing if I'm arguing Premil. If I was arguing Amil instead, it wouldn't be contradicting Daniel 12:2 in that case, yet it would be contradicting Revelation 20 since Amils don't take the first resurrection to be meaning the bodily resurrection of the saints. What's the solution? I'm not sure.

 

[grafted branch]

That appears to be contradicting what I'm arguing if I'm arguing Premil. If I was arguing Amil instead, it wouldn't be contradicting Daniel 12:2 in that case, yet it would be contradicting Revelation 20 since Amils don't take the first resurrection to be meaning the bodily resurrection of the saints. What's the solution? I'm not sure.

Yea, I’m not sure either. I’m leaning towards it being the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrection but that requires reading things into the text that aren’t there.

 

[Zao is life]

The word “beheaded” in Revelation 20:4 is only used once and it means to cut off with an axe. I think John the Baptist is the only person in the Bible that was beheaded, but I’m not sure, there might be others.

I’ve seen some people suggest that it means circumcision of the heart. I think it is referring to when Messiah is cut off as seen in Daniel 9:26 and in Matthew 3:10 where the axe is laid to the root of the trees.

I disagree with what you believe the beheading in Revelation 20 refers to, but just for "trivia" because of what you said first in your above post, the beheading of any saint/s is indeed only mentioned twice in the New Testament (Mark 6:16 and Revelation 20:4-6), and each time, for any saint to be seen living (záō) after their having been beheaded, is associated with their resurrection.

But hearing Herod said, It is John, whom I beheaded. He has risen from the dead! Mark 6:16.

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded .. And they lived .. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:4-5

Obviously Herod was wrong. I don't believe John was wrong about what he saw in Revelation 20 though.

People being killed specifically for refusing to worship the beast or his image, or receive his mark or the number of his name, is also mentioned only twice in the Revelation (Revelation 13:11-18 and Revelation 20:4).

 

[rwb]

Maybe not in this thread. But unless my memory fails me, in a previous discussion with me you vehemently denied that being born of the Spirit is not = "spiritual resurrection" because I pointed out that all the verses in the New Testament talking about the resurrection and being raised are speaking only about the resurrection of the body.

I'm glad to see you may have changed your view (unless it's my memory that fails me), because you kept arguing in another thread (quite a while back) that being born again = "spiritual resurrection", and were using this to argue that Revelation 20:4-6 is referring to a "spiritual resurrection" which takes place at the time of new birth by the Spirit. Now you claim there are two groups being mentioned.

Our spirit is made alive by/through or because of the first resurrection that is the bodily resurrection of Christ we must have part of in life before we die. It has caused much confusion in saying our spirit is resurrected, when our spirit was not altogether without life, being [SPIRITUALLY] dead only in trespasses and sins. We possessed a living spirit even before we were quickened to spiritual life through the Spirit of Christ in us. Therefore, we do NOT partake of a first physical resurrection, rather we partake of Christ's resurrection life because HE IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION from the dead to never die again. When we have part of His life during our lifetime, we are spiritually alive and have already overcome the second death because the life we have is everlasting. I have never changed my view, but I will agree I have tried to clarify my view again and again as I've come to greater understanding of biblical truth.

No one ascends to heaven. The only one who ever ascended to heaven is He who came down from heaven. If we have the Spirit of Christ in us and we are in Him then we are with Him where He is, both now and when we die.

Where then do you think as spiritual body raised after our physical body dies goes if not to heaven? Why does Solomon write that when our body is dead our spirit returns to God who gave it (Ecc 12:7)? What was Christ talking about being with Him in paradise when speaking to the thief who died with Him?

Your response above was to my saying that Jesus was quickened by the Spirit and rose again bodily. You will have to explain what you think is the state of someone who has been quickened by the Spirit.

I think though that you actually knew what I was saying but wanted to imply that I was saying something else. I've noticed you do a lot of that, and not only with me.

Why would the spirit in Jesus need to be quickened to life again since it was His body, not His spirit that died? He went spiritually alive to heaven while His dead body of flesh went into the tomb.

Those who argue that being born again = rising from death (no matter how you spin it) like you have not the understanding of the difference between the quickening of the Spirit and the resurrection of the body. And I've already attempted to explain the difference to you but you have no understanding of the difference, so it's pointless explaining it again.

The difference between our spiritual quickening and our bodily resurrection is that our spiritual quickening or awakening, raising is as you and I have both said is through the resurrection of Christ who is the first resurrection of the dead to die no more. Our resurrection will be of our physical, mortal and corrupt body either resurrected to life again or resurrected to damnation. Scripture makes mention of only the first resurrection we both now know is the bodily resurrection of Christ alone. And the resurrection of all who have died in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds.

 

[Zao is life]

I don't know if 'type' is the right word or not to describe the following, but in my mind, if we make the first resurrection a type of resurrection, a resurrection of the just, in this case, it doesn't matter how many resurrection events there are involving the just, the fact all these events obviously precede the resurrection of the unjust. Therefore, making it the first resurrection no matter how you look at it if there are only two types of resurrection events, that of the just and of the unjust.

The two types of resurrection events.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Type 1, the resurrection of the just.

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life

Type 2, the resurrection of the unjust.

they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
-------------------------------------------
Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Type 1, the resurrection of the just.

of the just

Type 2, the resurrection of the unjust.

of the unjust
------------------------------------------
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Type 1, the resurrection of the just.

This is the first resurrection.

Type 2, the resurrection of the unjust.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
-------------------------------------------------
IOW, until everyone that are just, are raised, no one that is unjust, are raised in the meantime. That makes it the first resurrection no matter how many different resurrection events there are involving the just. The first resurrection event began with Christ's resurrection and is not finished until there are no more just people to be raised. After that the only resurrection event remaining is the resurrection of the unjust.

What can't be denied, regardless of when the unjust are raised, whether that be the same day Christ returns, or whether it be a thousand years later, there is obviously a gap between the resurrection of the just and of the unjust. BTW, all these examples above involving the resurrection of the just, these are all meaning the same bodily resurrection of the saved when Christ returns in the end of this age.

The problem I have as a Premillennialist with this is:

"The hour is coming in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice."

THE hour is coming when ALL who are in the graves shall hear His voice.

Only one hour mentioned by Jesus - THE hour. He also did not say, "some who are in the graves shall hear His voice or "the just who are in the graves shall hear His voice", but ALL who are in the graves will hear when THE hour comes.

"..and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation.

 

[grafted branch]

I disagree with what you believe the beheading in Revelation 20 refers to, but just for "trivia" because of what you said first in your above post, the beheading of any saint/s is indeed only mentioned twice in the New Testament (Mark 6:16 and Revelation 20:4-6), and each time, for any saint to be seen living (záō) after their having been beheaded, is associated with their resurrection.

But hearing Herod said, It is John, whom I beheaded. He has risen from the dead! Mark 6:16.

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded .. And they lived .. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:4-5

Obviously Herod was wrong. I don't believe John was wrong about what he saw in Revelation 20 though.

People being killed specifically for refusing to worship the beast or his image, or receive his mark or the number of his name, is also mentioned only twice in the Revelation (Revelation 13:11-18 and Revelation 20:4).

I actually do think there could be a link of some kind between John the Baptist and those beheaded in Revelation 20:4.

I think JtB is some kind of symbol or type that represents the two witnesses in some way. Here is a list that I have of the similarities between JtB and the two witnesses.

===============================

Revelation 11 two witnesses. Matthew 11:14 JtB is called Elias but in John 1:21 JtB answers “no” when asked if he is Elias. In some kind of way JtB is a single person that represents 2 people, himself and Elijah.

Revelation 11:3 they are clothed in sackcloth. Mark 1:6 JtB was clothed with camel’s hair.

Revelation 11:7 when their testimony is finished the beast makes war, overcomes them, and kills them. Mathew 14:3 Herod puts JtB in prison (war), Matthew 11:2-3 JtB questions if Jesus is the Christ (overcome), and Matthew 14:10 JtB is beheaded (killed).

Revelation 11:9-10 their dead bodies are in the street for 3 ½ days and they that dwell on the earth rejoice, make merry, and send gifts. From Mark 6:29 it is possible that JtB’s body was in the street for 3 ½ days because it was only after JtB’s disciples heard of his beheading that they came and got his body; also JtB was beheaded during Herod’s birthday party which could be what making merry and sending gifts is referring to.

Revelation 11:11 after 3 ½ days the Spirit of life enters into them and they stand on their feet. In Matthew 27:52-53 after His resurrection (3 ½ days?) the graves are opened and the bodies of the saints arose. It is possible that JtB was one of the saints that arose at that time.

==============================•

The two witnesses are killed by the beast that ascends from the pit. If your view has the two witnesses as a future event then JtB could be a type with the antitype still unfulfilled. If the two witnesses represent something like the law and the prophets of the Old Testament then perhaps JtB symbolizes the end of the old covenant.

I’m not really sure what to do with JtB and those beheaded in Revelation 20:4 but I think they are all related to the two witnesses in some way.

 

[PinSeeker]

PinSeeker: (Paul) is, at the very least, saying the state we were formerly in but no longer is the same state of dead that the rest of mankind is still in... I agree with that...

Great.

and so the question is, what kind of dead is the rest of the world in?

Okay, sure...

I have postulated two possible interpretations: 1) condemned to death, and 2) spreading death.

Hm. The rest of the mankind, even while physically living, is dead. The are dead in their sin. They are, at any particular point in time, headed toward the second death (and the first, of course, along with everyone else, even us who are in Christ),

Are there two results of sinful behavior, or are there three? When we sin against God, we are guilty and as such we are under the curse of death. But as God said to Adam, "dying you shall die" meaning that when Adam dies, he has no hope of continuation. The same goes for us, apart from God's grace, we have no chance to exist in the "aion" the final age. For some people, they die once and then comes the judgment. For others, they die once, but then comes the free gift of existing in life everlasting.

That is one result of sin -- exclusion from the final age. In defining life, we find that sin can have a negative impact on it. According to the New Testament, we were meant to experience well-being, happiness, fulfillment, and human flourishing. Any actions we take that support life promote these positive outcomes. However, when we sin, it often opposes these positive outcomes and results in a lack of well-being, happiness, fulfillment, and human flourishing.

So then, those who practice sin are not only deserving of the death penalty (exclusion from the final age)...

Right, but we all are, in and of ourselves, but some of us are no longer in and of ourselves, we are clothed in the righteousness of Christ, so we will not experience the second death (which, again, is not a cessation of existence).

, the also spread death everyway they can...

Hm, well, but they are not knowingly doing so, right? And really, death has already spread to all through Adam and his trespass...

No. They did not die that day.

Well, not physically, no. But God did not lie to Adam. :) Or go back on Himself... :)

And God didn't say that they would die that day.

He most certainly did: "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, 'You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (Genesis 2:16-17, English Standard Version).

He said, On the day that you eat of the tree, "dying you shall die."

Oh.... boy. :) Young's Literal Translation, right? So, the YLT very likely is the most strictly literal English translation ever developed. In and of itself, that is not a bad thing; the literal renderings of the verb tenses are especially unique and can be quite valuable in studying God’s Word. Aspects that are usually only clear to those who can study the original Greek are clarified in the YLT. But the strictly literal translation method can make the YLT at least somewhat difficult to read and in some instances very unnatural sounding in English. I would say that's very true in the case of Genesis 2:17. In virtually all other translations, it is rendered "will surely die," "will certainly die," or "you shall die."

In other words, the day that they died, they would be lost forever. If someone is dead in their transgressions, the day they die they will be lost forever.

Ugh. :) See above. To what you say here, if someone is dead in his/her sin, he or she is destined to experience the second death. God can change that, of course; with Him, all things are possible. :) Adam and Eve died that very day. Not physically, but they died, that very day, just as God told Adam.

Now, yes ~ and this was true for Adam and Eve as well ~ if one remains dead in his/her sin, he/she will experience the second death, and he or she will, upon the final Judgment, depart... go away obediently into eternal punishment, and in this sense, be "lost forever" from the New Heaven and New Earth. This is the second death. He or she will then be... somewhere else... for all of eternity... <shudder> That's such a frightening thought that I don't even want to think about it.

If someone is alive in Christ, then the day they die is not the end of their story.

Ah, but still ~ and you just agreed to this ~ before one is made alive in Christ, even in this temporal, physical life, he or she is dead... in a very real sense. :)

I agree with what you say here in and of itself, but, if someone is not alive in Christ ~ and remains that way ~ that is not the end of his or her story either. :)

Even beyond that, though, you're speaking yet again of only the physical...

A slave to sin is not dead.

Well, not physically, no... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Yet, it is not referring to the first resurrection pertaining to Revelation 20, though.

We disagree.

As if it makes sense, that the most important resurrection event, other than Christ's, meaning the bodily resurrection of the saints, that John is not even going to mention that resurrection event in Revelation 20, he's going to mention a spiritual resurrection involving the here and now instead.

I'm... not even sure I can make sense of what you say here. :) I would rephrase it this way, that the most important resurrection event, other than Christ's physical resurrection (two millennia ago), is the spiritual resurrection of the saints ~ which occurs at some point in their lives here on earth ~ which ensures that the bodily resurrection of the saints will be the resurrection to eternal life. What John writes in Revelation, David, is a vision given to him. And that may seem to some a distinction of no consequence, or of no real import. Well, okay, however... :)

And there are only 2 resurrection events mentioned in Revelation 20 to begin with, but neither of them are meaning the bodily resurrection of the saints.

Disagree with this, too... I say the second is a bodily resurrection (in verses 11-15), and is not limited to the saints. In contrast, the first (verses 4-6), is limited to the saints (believers), but is ~ I agree ~ not a bodily resurrection.

There is something wrong with that picture.

Okay, well, we disagree. :) It's okay. :) That doesn't make either one of us stupid, or dumb, or unintelligent... or illogical, or irrational... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

That appears to be contradicting what I'm arguing if I'm arguing Premil. If I was arguing Amil instead, it wouldn't be contradicting Daniel 12:2 in that case, yet it would be contradicting Revelation 20 since Amils don't take the first resurrection to be meaning the bodily resurrection of the saints. What's the solution? I'm not sure.

Well, it's encouraging that you say you're not sure. No one is sure of everything, right? :) If they say they are, then that's a good enough reason to... well, stay away from them... :)

I don't really know if I'm speaking to what you say here or not, but I am ~ obviously ~ in the amillennial camp, so to speak, and I say that when Jesus, in John 5:28-29, says "an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment," He is referring directly to Daniel 12:2, that "...many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Do you not see any correlation there? I see the correlation as intense, there, to say the least. If you don't, I'm... not sure how.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[rwb]

Well, the first physical resurrection is that of Christ, yes. And then the way we have "a part in" that is to be resurrected in spirit, which is the immediate result of being born again of the Spirit.

Our spirit is only dead in trespasses and sins. Which means we have the breath of life (spirit) but being dead in trespasses and sins we are of the spirit of this world, sons of disobedience. Being born again is not being resurrected from spiritual death which we would have to be if our spirit was without any life. To be born again is to be raised from being dead in trespasses and sins to being spiritually alive through His Spirit in us. IOW when we are born again of His Spirit we receive a new heart, mind, will, and emotions, our spirit supernaturally changed, and we then have the Spirit of Christ in us to guide us and teach us what we should know about the ways of God. Calling our new birth a resurrection introduces unnecessary confusion, when all we need to say is what we read that without the Spirit of Christ we cannot know nor can we enter the Kingdom of God. We must be born again of the Spirit, not resurrected from physical death, which is what resurrection in Scripture is defined as.

And yes, we will be physically resurrected at Christ's return ~ along with (but immediately prior to) those not in Christ. And then will come the final Judgment, graphically portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15. And regarding Revelation 20, we have to distinguish between ~ somehow :) ~ between the resurrection of verses 11-15 and the resurrection of verses 4-6. Right?

You agree, right? I think @CadyandZoe does... :)

The only resurrection mentioned in Rev 20:4-6 is the first resurrection which says those who have part in it have overcome the second death. John writes of faithful souls who lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years alive after death, being faithful unto death. He makes no mention of them being resurrected to life again, and says only that they are alive. Then John makes a statement about the rest of the dead, or those who are not with the martyred faithful saints who shall not live again until the thousand years were finished.

Then John says, "This is the first resurrection." John is NOT speaking of the rest of the dead, he is speaking of the blessed and holy who have part in the first resurrection and overcome the second death calling them priests of God and of Christ who shall reign with Christ during this same time period a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The way when know for certain that John was not calling the rest of the dead holy and blessed etc. is because they are not among the martyrs who have lived and reigned with Christ in time, nor are they among the blessed and holy who have part in the first resurrection and overcome the second death. The rest of the dead are the same dead we find in vss. 11-15 who must stand before the judgment throne to give account according to what is written in the books and the book of life. The rest of the dead are those who shall be cast into the lake of fire that is the second death. That they belong to the second death is proof they are not among the blessed and holy, nor are they among the faithful martyrs. That's why they are called "the dead" and judged accordingly.

In this chapter John is showing that all who are of the first resurrection through the resurrection of Christ need not fear physical death. Because death of the body for faithful saints simply means we transition from this world to the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven. Which is why John writes of souls alive after physical death a spiritual body of believers in heaven.

 

[Zao is life]

Our spirit is made alive by/through or because of the first resurrection that is the bodily resurrection of Christ we must have part of in life before we die. It has caused much confusion in saying our spirit is resurrected, when our spirit was not altogether without life, being [SPIRITUALLY] dead only in trespasses and sins. We possessed a living spirit even before we were quickened to spiritual life through the Spirit of Christ in us. Therefore, we do NOT partake of a first physical resurrection, rather we partake of Christ's resurrection life because HE IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION from the dead to never die again. When we have part of His life during our lifetime, we are spiritually alive and have already overcome the second death because the life we have is everlasting. I have never changed my view, but I will agree I have tried to clarify my view again and again as I've come to greater understanding of biblical truth.

I can live with that. Thank you for clarifying why it had me confused with the things you stated or the wording you chose at one time. We argued a long time about that.

Where then do you think as spiritual body raised after our physical body dies goes if not to heaven?

You chose the word "ascended". Be careful with the terminology you use, is all I'm saying. We do not "ascend" to heaven. Christ ascended. The Bible states very clearly that the only one who has ascended into heaven is Christ, who also descended.

Christ has already ascended to where we will be with Him when we die physically. But we do not "ascend" there. He has already ascended there for us, and because we are in Him when we die in Him, we will be with Him where He has already ascended to.

Why does Solomon write that when our body is dead our spirit returns to God who gave it (Ecc 12:7)? What was Christ talking about being with Him in paradise when speaking to the thief who died with Him?

You never thought about what I was saying or never read my qualification of what I said. I've just given it to you again.

Why would the spirit in Jesus need to be quickened to life again since it was His body, not His spirit that died?

I did not say His soul or spirit needed to be quickened to life again. He was indeed quickened by the Spirit again.

He went spiritually alive to heaven while His dead body of flesh went into the tomb.

He did not go into heaven when He died. He went down to hades. On the third day He was resurrected from the dead. He only ascended into heaven 40 days later.

Psalm 16:10
"For You will not leave My soul [nephesh] in sheol; You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption."

It was quoted by Christ's apostle Peter:

Acts 2:27
"You will not leave My soul [psychḗ] in Hades, nor will You allow Your holy One to see corruption."

1 Peter 3:18-19
"For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive [zoopoieo] in the Spirit [pneûma]; in which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison."

The Spirit of God is omnipresent:

Psalm 139
7 Where shall I go from Your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from Your presence? 8 If I go up into Heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. 9 If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the furthest parts of the sea; 10 even there shall Your hand lead me, and Your right hand shall hold me. 11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me, even the night shall be light around me. 12 Yea, the darkness does not hide from You; but the night shines as the day; as is the darkness, so is the light to You. 13 For You have possessed my inward parts; You have covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise You; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Your works are marvelous and my soul knows it very well. 15 My bones were not hidden from You when I was made in secret and skillfully formed in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw my embryo; and in Your book all my members were written, the days they were formed, and not one was among them.

1 Corinthians 2:11
For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit [pneuma] of man [ánthrōpos] which is in him? even so the things of God [O theós] knows no man, but the Spirit [pneuma] of God [O theós].

Jesus the Man did not go into heaven when He died. His soul went down to hades. But the Spirit of God is omnipresent, by which Jesus preached in hades to the spirits in prison.

I honestly don't know where your question or statements are coming from. I thought you knew scripture and believed these basics of Christianity and the gospel.

The difference between our spiritual quickening and our bodily resurrection is that our spiritual quickening or awakening, raising is as you and I have both said is through the resurrection of Christ who is the first resurrection of the dead to die no more.

Raising from what? If your spirit wasn't alive (i.e did not have the Spirit of God until you were born of the Spirit), then raising from what? What is being born | quickened of the Spirit, and why is being born of the Spirit called the quickening or making alive, but never "raised" in the New Testament?

Is there a difference between your soul | spirit and your body? What is "raised" at the moment you are born | quickened | made alive by the Spirit? Is it your body that "raised" at the moment you are born | quickened | made alive by the Spirit?

Why is being born of the Spirit called quickening or making alive, but never called "raised" in the New Testament?

Our resurrection will be of our physical, mortal and corrupt body either resurrected to life again or resurrected to damnation. Scripture makes mention of only the first resurrection we both now know is the bodily resurrection of Christ alone. And the resurrection of all who have died in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds.

Yes. An hour is coming when all who are in the graves shall hear His voice and shall come forth, some to everlasting life and some to everlasting damnation. The last trumpet.

And when that occurs John sees some who had been beheaded for refusal to worship the beast living in their resurrected bodies and he sees them as beginning to reign with Christ a thousand years.

Just because the Gog-Magog rebellion doesn't seem to fit what is said about the resurrection does not mean "= Amil". That is a very hasty and simple (not very well thought out) way to explain away far too many other facts, some of which are mentioned in the OP of this thread.

 

[rwb]

Yet, it is not referring to the first resurrection pertaining to Revelation 20, though. As if it makes sense, that the most imprtant resurrection event, other than Christ's, meaning the bodily resurrection of the saints, that John is not even going to mention that resurrection event in Revelation 20, he's going to mention a spiritual resurrection involving the here and now instead. And there are only 2 resurrection events mentioned in Revelation 20 to begin with, but neither of them are meaning the bodily resurrection of the saints. There is something wrong with that picture.

You're right David, there surely is something very wrong with that understanding of Rev 20. The main focus of this chapter IMO is to give faithful saints assurance that we have everlasting life when we have part in Christ who is the first resurrection to never die again before we physically die. Also that physical death as Paul has said cannot separate the faithful from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Ro 8:34-39)

When you carefully read what John has written you will find him saying there are souls alive in heaven after being martyred for their faithfulness in life. They are alive in heaven because during their lifetimes they "lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." IOW during their lives before they died in this time symbolized a thousand years, they remained faithful unto death.

John also speaks of others who shall reign with Christ during their lifetimes also symbolically written as a thousand years. They are called blessed and holy, have part in the first resurrection and have overcome the second death by reigning with Christ during their lifetimes.

As for the rest of the dead, those who are not among the martyred saints, nor shall they be among those who shall reign with Christ in time, they shall have their end in the lake of fire that is the second death. Because in life during this time symbolized a thousand years they never lived or reigned with Christ. So we read of them again when the dead are called to stand before the judgment throne.

 

[rwb]

That appears to be contradicting what I'm arguing if I'm arguing Premil. If I was arguing Amil instead, it wouldn't be contradicting Daniel 12:2 in that case, yet it would be contradicting Revelation 20 since Amils don't take the first resurrection to be meaning the bodily resurrection of the saints. What's the solution? I'm not sure.

The first resurrection is the bodily resurrection of Christ because He is the first resurrection of the dead to never die again. We partake of His resurrection through His Spirit in us when we are born again, and the life we have through Him is everlasting. Daniel 12:2 is NOT referring to the bodily resurrection when the last trumpet sounds. If it were it would not say "many" shall awake. It would say "all" who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake. Daniel is referring to the first advent of Christ that will end when He comes again at the end of this Gospel age. Daniel, like Matthew 27:52-53 writes of when the graves were opened and many bodies of saints which slept arose. This was not the physical bodily resurrection that shall not be before an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. Matthew is writing of the spirits of just men being raised from the grave to ascend a spiritual body of believers to heaven, where John saw them as living souls.

Daniel 12:2 (KJV) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

[rwb]

Yea, I’m not sure either. I’m leaning towards it being the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrection but that requires reading things into the text that aren’t there.

What do you think must be read into the text that is not there if the many who arose from the graves after the resurrection of Christ is in view?

 

[ewq1938]

Ok, got it. When we see something that says “first” we know that there could be others that are truly first but just not first in that chapter of the Bible.

Correct.

There are different "first resurrections"

1. the first bodily resurrection of a dead person being raised back to life in the OT.
2. the first bodily resurrection of a dead person being raised back to life in the NT.
3. the bodily resurrection of Christ.
4. the first of two mass bodily resurrections described in Rev 20.

Context will dictate which of these 4 any certain scripture refers to. Applying all of them to the resurrection of Christ is clear error.

 

[grafted branch]

Daniel is referring to the first advent of Christ that will end when He comes again at the end of this Gospel age. Daniel, like Matthew 27:52-53 writes of when the graves were opened and many bodies of saints which slept arose. This was not the physical bodily resurrection that shall not be before an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. Matthew is writing of the spirits of just men being raised from the grave to ascend a spiritual body of believers to heaven, where John saw them as living souls.

Daniel 12:2 (KJV) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

It looks like we’re on the same page in regard to Daniel 12:2 and Matthew 27:52-53.

In Revelation 12:7 Michael fights the dragon and in Daniel 12:1 at that time shall Michael stand up … and there shall be a time of trouble. I place Revelation 12:7 and Daniel 12:1 happening at the same time as both are referring to an action by Michael.

The trouble in Daniel 12:1, do you place that trouble taking place in heaven? Do you think it’s the same trouble as the Matthew 24:21 great tribulation?

 

[grafted branch]

What do you think must be read into the text that is not there if the many who arose from the graves after the resurrection of Christ is in view?

Matthew 27:52-53 says “saints” arose so if some are going to everlasting contempt as Daniel 12:2 says then you have saints receiving everlasting contempt. I personally think the word “saints” in some cases can be referring to national Israel but that’s something that is debatable.