The Alternative to a Rapture

[PinSeeker]

JOhn 14 goes into more detail as to the where the snatched away will go after they are snatched off the earth as thesselonians declares.

Ah, so now you're reversing course again... re-contradicting yourself. Okay, I think we're done, Ronald. Grace and peace to you.

Well belief in the rapture is only held among about 25% of believers. But Thessalonians declares that those living will be caught up (harpazo) to meet the dead who were resurrected from their graves and we both will meet the Lord in the air (aer-atmosphere) so the bible teaches the living will be harpazo (siezed or snatched), I simply take it at face value.

Well, I agree, but you actually make it more than face value; that's the issue. You don't think you do, obviously; no Premillennial believer does, or intends to do so, but they do... :)

So this present earth is the millenial reign of Jesus?????

Absolutely. And when He returns, it will be because His millennial reign has been brought to a close, and His eternal reign will begin... and have no end, of course.

Wow your concept of Jesus is one of an impotent king if this sin sick world is Jesus reigning as King of Kings and Lord of Lords!

Ah, the problem of evil and sin in the world... I'll just say here, Ronald, that the Kingdom is here now, but not yet in its fullness.

So to you REv. 20 is simply retelling a prior event in a different way with different descriptions and differing out comes. Lousy hermeneutics to me.

LOL! Not different outcomes... :)

At least I use grammar and the knowledge Jesus did not try to hide the word from His children.

And you think I don't? Well that's too bad... :)

We all think in an order and a simple reading without any bias- one concludes REv. 20 follows REv. 19 in the order of events.

Yes, premillennial believers do that, and it's incorrect.

It all makes simple sense.

Well yes, but not in an overly simple sense.

You have to have others teach you some kind of code to show how these things are not chronological but whatever.

There are no "codes." :) But things can be read and misconstrued in a variety of ways for a variety of reasons, despite the fact that we all read the same things, that God's Word is what it is and says what it says.

PinSeeker: "the final battle in Revelation 20:7-10 is the same event seen in Revelation 16:14, 16... and Revelation 17:14... and Revelation 19:11-21.​

That is so patently a lies as to be laughable

In your opinion. Yes, I'm very aware of that. Painfully so. :) But... it's okay. :)

You then have to believe that satan and the false prophet and the antichrist are already abyssed because you declare the 1,000 year reign of Jesus is happening now!

Sure. They are. And it is. But you disagree, and that's... okay. :)

REv. 16, 17 and 19 are all speaking of what is termed the battle of Armageddon. Rev. 20 is a different war.

Disagree. There is only one "war," and there will be only one "final battle/conflict."

REv. 19 Jesus comes down defeats the antichrist and throws the beast and false prophet into the lake of fire!

Right, and the "fire (coming) down from heaven and (consuming) them, and the devil who had deceived them (being) thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were" in Revelation 20:9-10 is the same event described in a slightly different but very parallel way. You disagree. And that's... okay. :)

The battle in Rev. 20 occurs after Satan is loosed for a season!

Yes, I certainly agree with this, but, although we don't see it explicitly, I would submit that the same is true (with regard to Satan's being loosed) in Revelation 19, specifically verse 11-21. Regarding Revelation 19 in particular, I would submit that Satan's loosing has happened just prior to the events described in verses 11-21, and are the reason those events take place.

He is not bound by an angel and the armies are not destroyed by god the Father with a blast form heaven.

In Revelation 19:11-21? Yes, with regard to "not bound by an angel," not anymore in that specific passage... :). And with regard to "the armies are not destroyed by god the Father with a blast form heaven," yet again I would submit that these two things are the same event:

• "...heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The One sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war... the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against Him who was sitting on the horse... the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet... these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur..." (Revelation 19).
• "...fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were..." (Revelation 20).

In Revelation 19, Jesus is the "rider on the white horse called Faithful and True," and in Revelation 20 is the "fire coming down out of heaven" (in the very same sense that our God is a consuming fire, as in Deuteronomy 4:24 and 9:3 and Hebrews 12:29).

You don't see it that way, obviously. I think that's somewhat... unfortunate... :)... but that's... okay. Need we keep going back and forth, treading the same ground over and over and over again? :)

You should read more carefully.

LOL! Ronald, just because two people don't agree on something does not mean that one or the other has not been careful in his or her reading. :) To think otherwise is... well, quite ridiculous. :)

Of course it doesn't. but those who have taught you this reinterpreted version of Scripture and changed the words as written are the ones deceiving you.

Ronald, these kinds of assertions are ridiculous. You think I'm wrong. I think you're wrong. That's okay, man. Really. It's okay. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ah, so now you're reversing course again... re-contradicting yourself. Okay, I think we're done, Ronald. Grace and peace to you.

No, you only make that false allegation because of whatever reason you seek to defame.

Well, I agree, but you actually make it more than face value; that's the issue. You don't think you do, obviously; no Premillennial believer does, or intends to do so, but they do... :)

So now you pretend to know what I think or do not think? No I take the words at face value. Regardless of how erroneous you are in thinking you can read my mind.

Absolutely. And when He returns, it will be because His millennial reign has been brought to a close, and His eternal reign will begin... and have no end, of course.

Wow He sucks worse as king in your scenario than the government of Chicago does at reducing murder. I take it you have not read the OT and all the detailed descriptions of life on the earth during the 1,000 year reign of jesus. but then again you do not believe 1,000 means 1,000 either.

Yes, premillennial believers do that, and it's incorrect.

Well yes, but not in an overly simple sense.

There are no "codes." :) But things can be read and misconstrued in a variety of ways for a variety of reasons, despite the fact that we all read the same things, that God's Word is what it is and says what it says.

Yes you are an allegorist and rely on secret revelations to reinterpret Scripture. You are a very typical amillenialist. Yes you rely on codes. for you do not believe 1,000 means 1,000 and being snatched up does not mean taken from one place to another etc. So you rely on the teachings of others who got it from teachings of others who supposedly receive "special revelation" to show them that what is written is not what is to be understood. Just like the RCC, Mormons and JW's.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

LOL! Not different outcomes... :)

Well then tell me what you declare Rev. 20 to be and what chapter it is retelling. YOu say it is what pre'mils call the battle of Armegeddon. So you have to declare that Rev. 20 is written with a totally differing outcome.

Battle of Armegeddon and its aftermath (Rev. 16, 17, 19,20)

Antichrist gathers armies of the world to fight Jesus.
Jesus returns and fights the forces.
Jesus defeats Antichrist and false prophet
Abysses Satan. Casts alive the FP and AC inot the lake of fire.
First resurrection- before the 1,000 years (so according to you before Jesus began His reign)
These raised before Jesus begins to reign are called blessed.


War after the millenial reign:

Satan is loosed
Gathers all nations
Instead of Jesus returning (chapter 19) God sends fire fromo heaven and destroys them.
Great white throne set up
the rest of the dead are resurrected.

Now please tell me how these two are the same.

In Revelation 19, Jesus is the "rider on the white horse called Faithful and True," and in Revelation 20 is the "fire coming down out of heaven" (in the very same sense that our God is a consuming fire, as in Deuteronomy 4:24 and 9:3 and Hebrews 12:29).

You don't see it that way, obviously. I think that's somewhat... unfortunate... :)... but that's... okay. Need we keep going back and forth, treading the same ground over and over and over again? :)

So Jesus is not Jesus or fdire from heaven is not really fire from heaven? which one is literal and which allegorical or are both allegorical to you?

LOL! Ronald, just because two people don't agree on something does not mean that one or the other has not been careful in his or her reading. :) To think otherwise is... well, quite ridiculous. :)

Maybe to you, but this is the word of God we both are declaring. YOu being an allegorical interpreter tend to redefine words when the grammar of the passage does not tell us, I let The Word lead me. God gave His Word to common folk, not to puzzle solvers as you make people need to be in order to "correctly" understand His Word. That is what the cults to me.

Ronald, these kinds of assertions are ridiculous. You think I'm wrong. I think you're wrong. That's okay, man. Really. It's okay. :)

As far as soteriology is concerned, yeah it is fine. as for eschatology and rightly dividing the word- that is a much different issue.

But let me ask you an honest question. Do you believe a born again believer can lose their salvation?

I do want to let you know, I do not hold you in any anger or animosity at all. None of my responses were written with any malice in my heart. I am one who gets right to the point and do not dance around with words. So to many people here I come off as gruff and angry. Not true, I am just very very direct which is more and more a lost art.

 

[PinSeeker]

No, you only make that false allegation because of whatever reason you seek to defame.

Well, you think it's a false allegation, and that's fine with me. Defame? You think I seek to defame you? Pffft. Absolutely not.

So now you pretend to know what I think or do not think?

You've told me very clearly what you think. :)

Wow He sucks worse as king in your scenario than the government of Chicago does at reducing murder.

LOL! Maybe, Ronald... maybe... His thoughts and ways are not ours... much higher... Seems like I've heard that before somewhere... :) Oh yeah! Good ol' Isaiah (55:8-9)... :)

I take it you have not read the OT and all the detailed descriptions of life on the earth during the 1,000 year reign of jesus.

Well... <in my best falsetto voice> Yes, I haaaaaaaave... :) <now back in my normal voice> And New Testament, too... :)

but then again you do not believe 1,000 means 1,000 either.

<in my best falsetto voice> Yes, I doooooo... :) <now back in my normal voice> But I maintain (as I have said so many times now) that "thousand" in Revelation 20 ~ like several other places in Scripture and throughout Revelation itself ~ is not in the wooden, strictly numerical context you think it is. We don't disagree on the face value thing in and of itself; thousand does in fact mean thousand. However... :)

Yes you are an allegorist and rely on secret revelations to reinterpret Scripture.

Nope and nope.

You are a very typical amillenialist.

I hope so... for all other amillennialists' sake. But that's certainly not about me at all... :)

Yes you rely on codes.

Nope. Pfffft. That's just demagoguery, really.

...you do not believe being snatched up does not mean taken from one place to another etc.

Not in Paul's context in 1 Thessalonians 4, no. I thought you agreed on that. You did, actually.

So you rely on the teachings of others who got it from teachings of others who supposedly receive "special revelation" to show them that what is written is not what is to be understood. Just like the RCC, Mormons and JW's.

So now you're comparing me to... cultists. Hmmmm...

Well then tell me what you declare Rev. 20 to be and what chapter it is retelling.

Well I have, several times. It is another vision given to John, the seventh of seven, and a recapitualization ~ but with a slightly different focus than any of the previous six ~ of the time period between the coming of the Holy Spirit and the return of Christ... God's millennium, the time of God's bringing His elect into His Israel. I've been very clear on that many, many times, and not just with you.

So you have to declare that Rev. 20 is written with a totally differing outcome.

I think we all agree that Jesus wins, Ronald. :)

Battle of Armegeddon and its aftermath (Rev. 16, 17, 19,20)

Antichrist gathers armies of the world to fight Jesus.
Jesus returns and fights the forces.
Jesus defeats Antichrist and false prophet
Abysses Satan. Casts alive the FP and AC inot the lake of fire.
First resurrection- before the 1,000 years (so according to you before Jesus began His reign)
These raised before Jesus begins to reign are called blessed.


War after the millennial reign:

Satan is loosed
Gathers all nations
Instead of Jesus returning (chapter 19) God sends fire from heaven and destroys them.
Great white throne set up
the rest of the dead are resurrected.

Now please tell me how these two are the same.

Hmmm. You know, I certainly don't mean any offense in this... nor do I "seek to defame"... buuuuuuut... what you say here ~ both parts ~ is a mess. :) Sorry. Okay, I'll just say this... as if this is the first time, but it's not... ...that both Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 depict Jesus's return... explicitly... but more explicitly in Revelation 19 than in Revelation 20, because, yet again, the focus is a bit different. Unlike Revelation 19, Revelation 20 focuses on the second resurrection, final Judgment, and finally ~ well, this is actually the first few verses of Revelation 21 ~ the uniting (reuniting, really) of heaven and earth. Those things are not depicted at all in Revelation 19, but are (should be, anyway) understood as happening in very short order after the events of Revelation 19:11-21. But the events of Revelation 19:11-21 are depicted again in Revelation 20:7-10, the former more in detail ~ because that's the focus in Revelation 19 ~ than the latter. And the events described in Revelation 20:1-6 are (should be, anyway) understood to have taken place and come to a close in short order before the events of Revelation 19:11-21.

So Jesus is not Jesus or fire from heaven is not really fire from heaven?

Ugh. :) Ronald... :) Ronald, I would submit to you that Jesus IS the fire from heaven. :) Oh! Just had a flashback to Leviticus 9... :)

...which one is literal and which allegorical or are both allegorical to you?

LOL! See above.

YOu being an allegorical interpreter tend to redefine words...

Nope.

...I let The Word lead me.

Again, as if I don't... Hmmm.

But let me ask you an honest question.

Hmmm... :)

Do you believe a born again believer can lose their salvation?

Nope. Why do you ask?

I do want to let you know, I do not hold you in any anger or animosity at all.

Your posts undermine this statement. :) But whatever the case, I'm unconcerned about that.

None of my responses were written with any malice in my heart. I am one who gets right to the point and do not dance around with words. So to many people here I come off as gruff and angry. Not true, I am just very very direct which is more and more a lost art.

Okay, fair enough.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Well, you think it's a false allegation, and that's fine with me. Defame? You think I seek to defame you? Pffft. Absolutely not.

No it is a false allegation. YOu pretend to know my thoughts and that in turn defames the one you are falsely alleging.

I hope so... for all other amillennialists' sake. But that's certainly not about me at all... :)

Well like they say if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck-its a duck.

Nope. Pfffft. That's just demagoguery, really.

Well when your explanations do not match what is written- yes you do rely on codes. A normal reader never comes up with your interpretations.

Not in Paul's context in 1 Thessalonians 4, no. I thought you agreed on that. You did, actually.

Never did agree with you! And yes in Pauls context. If you disagree, then please tell me what meeting the dead in christ in the atmosphere means if not being snatched off the earth.

Well I have, several times. It is another vision given to John, the seventh of seven, and a recapitualization ~ but with a slightly different focus than any of the previous six ~ of the time period between the coming of the Holy Spirit and the return of Christ... God's millennium, the time of God's bringing His elect into His Israel. I've been very clear on that many, many times, and not just with you.

Once again you have a real problem. You believe that the millenial kingdom is happening now since Jesus ascension. so that means the dead in Rev, 20 were resurrected before Jesus ascended.

Hmmm. You know, I certainly don't mean any offense in this... nor do I "seek to defame"... buuuuuuut... what you say here ~ both parts ~ is a mess. :) Sorry. Okay, I'll just say this... as if this is the first time, but it's not... ...that both Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 depict Jesus's return... explicitly... but more explicitly in Revelation 19 than in Revelation 20, because, yet again, the focus is a bit different. Unlike Revelation 19, Revelation 20 focuses on the second resurrection, final Judgment, and finally ~ well, this is actually the first few verses of Revelation 21 ~ the uniting (reuniting, really) of heaven and earth. Those things are not depicted at all in Revelation 19, but are (should be, anyway) understood as happening in very short order after the events of Revelation 19:11-21. But the events of Revelation 19:11-21 are depicted again in Revelation 20:7-10, the former more in detail ~ because that's the focus in Revelation 19 ~ than the latter. And the events described in Revelation 20:1-6 are (should be, anyway) understood to have taken place and come to a close in short order before the events of Revelation 19:11-21.

So you believe that satan has been abyssed since Jesus resurrection! Interesting!!!!!

Please show me where the city of god in Scripture was ever on earth before.

And REv. 20 clearly delineates 2 resurrections. One before the millenium (which you say started at Jesus ascension) and then the rest of the dead after the millenium has ended. At least that is what the Word of god says as written.

Ugh. :) Ronald... :) Ronald, I would submit to you that Jesus IS the fire from heaven. :) Oh! Just had a flashback to Leviticus 9... :)

24 And there came a fire out from before the Lord, and consumed upon the altar the burnt offering and the fat: which when all the people saw, they shouted, and fell on their faces.

Easy to say- now prove it biblically. That Yahweh Jesus came out from before Yahweh the Father and Jesus consumed the burnt offering. I await your showing us all.

Nope.

I guess you have redefined nope as well.

Your posts undermine this statement. :) But whatever the case, I'm unconcerned about that.

Once again you do not take my word for it but allow your predisposed opinions to dictate to you.

 

[Keraz]

Back to the OP:

Zechariah 8:2-23
I am about to rescue My people from countries in the East and West and bring them back to live in Jerusalem. They will be My people and I shall be their God, in faithfulness and justice.

These are the words of the Lord of Hosts; Take heart, all you who now hear that the Temple is to be rebuilt as the prophets foretold. Before that time, there was no hiring of man or beast, because of your enemies, for I had set every man against his neighbour. But, I do not feel the same toward the remnant of this people as I did in former days, says the Lord of Hosts. For they will sow in safety, I will give them rain and the Land will yield it’s produce. This is the inheritance of My people. To the nations you, House of Judah and House of Israel, have become as a curse; now I shall save you – you will become proverbial as a blessing. Courage, do not lose heart!
Ref; REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.

‘I am about to rescue the faithful peoples…they will be My people and I will be their God’. We know from New Testament teaching, that the Lord’s people are every true Christian person, Jew or Gentile. 1 Peter 2:9-10, Rev 5:9-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16 Now I shall take thought for My sheep…I will rescue them from wherever they are scattered in the Day of cloud and darkness. I shall bring them home, to their own Land and make them prosper. Isaiah 60:4, Jeremiah 31:1-6, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Amos 9:14

‘the Day of cloud and darkness’, is the Day of the Lord’s wrath, a CME sunstrike that will depopulate the entire holy Land area, also causing worldwide devastation. Isaiah 30:25-30, Isaiah 66:15-17, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Revelation 6:12-17

‘I have set every man against his neighbour’. This is the current situation in the Middle East.

‘Courage, do not lose heart’. This proves that we must pass through the terrible testing and trials of the forthcoming Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath. A literal Day of fire from the sky, of earthquakes, storm winds and tsunamis. It will be a period of ‘cloud and darkness’, from the smoke and ash clouds that will envelope the earth. Zeph. 1:15, Matt.24:29,Joel 2:1-2

‘Peoples will come to Jerusalem to worship the Lord, in the new Temple’. From the context of this quote and from other prophesies, it is clear that this will happen before the Return of Jesus for His Millennial, worldwide reign. Ezekiel 43:4…the Shekinah Glory of God will come into the Temple by the East gate. And even though verse 23 mentions a Jew, as one who enjoys the Lord’s favour, we know from verse 13 and many other prophesies that Christians from every nation and language, Isaiah 56:1-8, will become citizens of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, the new nation formed after the judgement/punishment of fire has cleared and cleansed the entire Middle East. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 10:18, Amos 1:2-15

Be prepared to hold fast to your faith, as disaster strikes the world. Great blessings are promised to all who unwaveringly trust in the Lord for His protection.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I surely don't see that Jesus goes back to heaven, but millions of deceived people do.
That is why I post the truth of what our destiny really is.

Mat 25..they are taken to the marriage chamber..the fathers house
At the last supper..they are meeting in heaven as Jesus foretells.
At mat 24 the one taken is taken to heaven
In rev 14 the 144 k are taken to heaven
Later in rev 14 the main harvest is taken to heaven.
In the noah depiction by Jesus it is clear noah goes up into the heavens.
The 2 witnesses are taken to heaven
Paul was taken to heaven
John was taken to heaven
Enoch and elijah were taken to heaven
Your doctrine thrives on omission

 

[Keraz]

Your doctrine thrives on omission

Your doctrine relies on admission. And on denying the Words of Jesus. John 3:13, John 17:15 I do NOT pray for You to take my people out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.

Not one of your assertions above prove that anyone was or will be taken up to go to and live in God's holy dwelling place.
Did Elijan go to live in heaven? No, because he sent a letter to the king after his taking up experience.
Will the 2 Witnesses go to live in heaven? No, because Jesus has just then come down from heaven and resurrected them. They and all the martyrs killed during the GT, will be His priests and co-rulers on earth.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ah, the problem of evil and sin in the world... I'll just say here, Ronald, that the Kingdom is here now, but not yet in its fullness.

so it is just kind of His millenial reign? If it is not the fulness of His reign, then who has the rest? And where does it say that in Scripture.

> Yes, I doooooo... :) <now back in my normal voice> But I maintain (as I have said so many times now) that "thousand" in Revelation 20 ~ like several other places in Scripture and throughout Revelation itself ~ is not in the wooden, strictly numerical context you think it is. We don't disagree on the face value thing in and of itself; thousand does in fact mean thousand. However.

So 1,000 means 1,000 except in Revelation? Just like I said, you need the code book to understand what 1,000 means .

Nope.

Yup.


You also have another insurmountable problem.

Because you believe that Jesus has begun His Millenial reign (not in fulness but only in partness), the bible says this:

Revelation 20

King James Version

​

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

You have has Satan abyssed and bound in chains since Jesus ascension and He began His not fulness millenial reign bor the thousand years that is not 1,000 years.

Also:

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So t5his resurrection occurred before Jesus ascended. where are they seeing as thier bodies rose.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Your doctrine relies on admission. And on denying the Words of Jesus. John 3:13, John 17:15 I do NOT pray for You to take my people out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.

Not one of your assertions above prove that anyone was or will be taken up to go to and live in God's holy dwelling place.
Did Elijan go to live in heaven? No, because he sent a letter to the king after his taking up experience.
Will the 2 Witnesses go to live in heaven? No, because Jesus has just then come down from heaven and resurrected them. They and all the martyrs killed during the GT, will be His priests and co-rulers on earth.

you border on heretical beliefs.
I showed you where it is the heart of God to take men to haven as prophesied at the last supper and VIVIDLY declared in the parable of the virgins, plus the other examples i showed you.
So yes, your doctrine is against the bible.
You even change the fact of elijah raptured alive to heaven.
Such a pity of mans clever doctrine.
You made a big mess sir.
Time to repent.

 

[PinSeeker]

You believe that the millennial kingdom is happening now since Jesus ascension...

Yes, because it is... :)

...so that means the dead in Rev, 20 were resurrected before Jesus ascended.

No, it means that of those who have been dead in their sin previously (we all are from birth), many have been experiencing this first resurrection ~ which is spiritual, in which we are born again and raised/resurrected in spirit ~ since Jesus ascended.

So you believe that satan has been abyssed since Jesus resurrection! Interesting!!!!!

Well, I've been very clear on that...

And REv. 20 clearly delineates 2 resurrections.

Agreed. Yet again... But the first (the spiritual resurrection) is not of the same nature as the second (the physical resurrection).

One before the millenium (which you say started at Jesus ascension)...

Right, so during, not before or after...

and then the rest of the dead after the millenium has ended.

Yes, but there are two ways to understand Revelation 20:5... "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended" (ESV, NASB, NIV, others)... and they both seem/look valid, at least on first blush, but only one is accurate, the right way to understand it. You actually added the word "after," Ronald, so no, that is not what is written. The ending phrase there, "until the thousand years were ended" is important:

• You understand it in this way, that none of the rest of the dead came to life until the thousand years were ended.
• I understand it in this way, that all of the rest of the dead came to life by the time the thousand years were ended.

This is a further explanation of Revelation 20:4, specifically that "(t)hey came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years," where John is saying not that they all came to life and then every single one of them reigned with Christ for the full thousand years, but rather that their coming to life and reigning with Christ is over the course of the thousand years.

You can certainly stay with the former understanding, but you cannot with any credibility at all argue that the latter understanding "doesn't make sense" or that it is not a possible valid understanding of that verse. You may still choose to understand it the way you do, but I would submit to you again that in John's context there in Revelation 20:1-6, the latter is the correct way to see that ending phrase in Revelation 20:5.

At least that is what the Word of god says as written.


24 And there came a fire out from before the Lord, and consumed upon the altar the burnt offering and the fat: which when all the people saw, they shouted, and fell on their faces.

Easy to say- now prove it biblically. That Yahweh Jesus came out from before Yahweh the Father and Jesus consumed the burnt offering. I await your showing us all.

That's not what I was saying. I just had a flashback to the visual images in Leviticus 9. What took place there in the desert, I would argue, did and does have ultimate meaning, but I probably shouldn't have brought that up; I can see how that would be confusing. Anyway, by "submit(ting) to you that Jesus IS the fire from heaven," what I was saying was, the "fire (coming) down from heaven" in Revelation 20:9 is Jesus. :) And that one verse, Revelation 20:9, should be seen in the very same light ~ as the very same event, Jesus's return ~ as what John says in Revelation 29:11-16...

"Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems, and He has a name written that no one knows but Himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which He is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following Him on white horses. From His mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords."​

so it is just kind of His millennial reign?

"Kind of"? No, it is... It is what it is... :)

If it is not the fulness of His reign, then who has the rest?

It's not as if "somebody else has the rest," Ronald, it's just, well, the Kingdom is "still under construction," as it were ~ people are still coming to Christ now (the fullness of the Gentiles has not yet been brought in and the partial hardening that is on Israel not yet removed), and will be ushered in in it's fullness and His reign will be in Person when He returns.

So 1,000 means 1,000 except in Revelation?

There are several places in Scripture even beyond Revelation ~ Old Testament and New Testament alike ~ where 'thousand' is not a hard number but indicative of the concept of fullness and completeness, the full and complete amount, whatever that may actually be numerically speaking, according to God's will. And, as I said, in Revelation, this is true every time.

Just like I said, you need the code book to understand what 1,000 means .

LOL! There are no "codes," Ronald. All that's needed is to understand the context where it is used. And it's not hard. :)

You also have another insurmountable problem.

LOL!!!

Because you believe that Jesus has begun His Millenial reign (not in fulness but only in partness)...

You're... misunderstanding what I said about "in part now, but in full later," Ronald. Now you're taking me out of my own context. Which is... not surprising... LOL! His millennial reign is what it is; it is not "in partness." LOL!

You have has Satan abyssed and bound in chains since Jesus ascension...

Well, yes; as Jesus said in Matthew 12, "...if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house."

and He began His not fulness millenial reign for the thousand years that is not 1,000 years.

LOL! See above. You're a smart fella, Ronald. Does what I have said really not make any sense to you? Or are you just that shut off that you can't understand anything? Well, just won't, I guess... Sigh...

Also:

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So t5his resurrection occurred before Jesus ascended. where are they seeing as thier bodies rose.

Nope. And nope. See above. I've been very clear, Ronald.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes, because it is... :)


No, it means that of those who have been dead in their sin previously (we all are from birth), many have been experiencing this first resurrection ~ which is spiritual, in which we are born again and raised/resurrected in spirit ~ since Jesus ascended.


Well, I've been very clear on that...


Agreed. Yet again... But the first (the spiritual resurrection) is not of the same nature as the second (the physical resurrection).


Right, so during, not before or after...


Yes, but there are two ways to understand Revelation 20:5... "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended" (ESV, NASB, NIV, others)... and they both seem/look valid, at least on first blush, but only one is accurate, the right way to understand it. You actually added the word "after," Ronald, so no, that is not what is written. The ending phrase there, "until the thousand years were ended" is important:

• You understand it in this way, that none of the rest of the dead came to life until the thousand years were ended.
• I understand it in this way, that all of the rest of the dead came to life by the time the thousand years were ended.

This is a further explanation of Revelation 20:4, specifically that "(t)hey came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years," where John is saying not that they all came to life and then every single one of them reigned with Christ for the full thousand years, but rather that their coming to life and reigning with Christ is over the course of the thousand years.

You can certainly stay with the former understanding, but you cannot with any credibility at all argue that the latter understanding "doesn't make sense" or that it is not a possible valid understanding of that verse. You may still choose to understand it the way you do, but I would submit to you again that in John's context there in Revelation 20:1-6, the latter is the correct way to see that ending phrase in Revelation 20:5.


That's not what I was saying. I just had a flashback to the visual images in Leviticus 9. What took place there in the desert, I would argue, did and does have ultimate meaning, but I probably shouldn't have brought that up; I can see how that would be confusing. Anyway, by "submit(ting) to you that Jesus IS the fire from heaven," what I was saying was, the "fire (coming) down from heaven" in Revelation 20:9 is Jesus. :)


"Kind of"? No, it is... It is what it is... :)


It's not as if "somebody else has the rest," Ronald, it's just, well, the Kingdom is "still under construction," as it were ~ people are still coming to Christ now (the fullness of the Gentiles has not yet been brought in and the partial hardening that is on Israel not yet removed), and will be ushered in in it's fullness and His reign will be in Person when He returns.


There are several places in Scripture even beyond Revelation ~ Old Testament and New Testament alike ~ where 'thousand' is not a hard number but indicative of the concept of fullness and completeness, the full and complete amount, whatever that may actually be numerically speaking, according to God's will. And, as I said, in Revelation, this is true every time.


LOL! There are no "codes," Ronald. All that's needed is to understand the context where it is used. And it's not hard. :)


LOL!!!


You're... misunderstanding what I said about "in part now, but in full later," Ronald. Now you're taking me out of my own context. Which is... not surprising... LOL! His millennial reign is what it is; it is not "in partness." LOL!


Well, yes; as Jesus said in Matthew 12, "...if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house."


LOL! See above. You're a smart fella, Ronald. Does what I have said really not make any sense to you? Or are you just that shut off that you can't understand anything? Well, just won't, I guess... Sigh...


Nope. And nope. See above. I've been very clear, Ronald.

Grace and peace to you.

Well I cannot argue against your version of the bible. Have the last word if you wish. You are just plain silly and time will show these concepts that someone fed you are lies.

 

[Keraz]

you border on heretical beliefs.
I showed you where it is the heart of God to take men to haven as prophesied at the last supper and VIVIDLY declared in the parable of the virgins, plus the other examples i showed you.
So yes, your doctrine is against the bible.
You even change the fact of elijah raptured alive to heaven.
Such a pity of mans clever doctrine.
You made a big mess sir.
Time to repent.

You make it clear what you want God to do for you; 'beam me up Jesus'!
But what does God want from His faithful people? Does He need people in heaven, He has angels there to minister to Him.

God made the earth for us humans to inhabit, we are earth creatures. The Bible says the earth will continue forever. Eccl 1:4
If you think that you are holy and righteous enough, as Elijah was; to be removed from where he was in trouble, {note the Bible never says Elijah went to live in heaven] then; bye bye Rebuilder!

My desire is to stay here and do the tasks God has given me.
To prove to God how I will never lose my faith and trust in His saving power.
To be a part of the peoples who will be the citizens of the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5 In all of the Holy Land. Micah 7:11-12, Isaiah 54:2-3
To greet Jesus as He Returns, with the shout of; Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord!

 

[PinSeeker]

Well I cannot argue against your version of the bible.

"My version..." LOL! There is no PRV (PinSeeker Revised Version), as you seem to think... LOL! But yeah, that's a part of what I was saying; you can't really argue. You can maintain your own position, and that's fine, but you can't argue with what I said. You can't.

You are just plain silly...

Coming from you, Ronald, I'm going to take that as somewhat of a compliment. Thanks. :)

and time will show these concepts that someone fed you are lies.

Well, time and truth are on the same side, that's for sure. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yes, because it is... :)


No, it means that of those who have been dead in their sin previously (we all are from birth), many have been experiencing this first resurrection ~ which is spiritual, in which we are born again and raised/resurrected in spirit ~ since Jesus ascended.


Well, I've been very clear on that...


Agreed. Yet again... But the first (the spiritual resurrection) is not of the same nature as the second (the physical resurrection).


Right, so during, not before or after...


Yes, but there are two ways to understand Revelation 20:5... "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended" (ESV, NASB, NIV, others)... and they both seem/look valid, at least on first blush, but only one is accurate, the right way to understand it. You actually added the word "after," Ronald, so no, that is not what is written. The ending phrase there, "until the thousand years were ended" is important:

• You understand it in this way, that none of the rest of the dead came to life until the thousand years were ended.
• I understand it in this way, that all of the rest of the dead came to life by the time the thousand years were ended.

This is a further explanation of Revelation 20:4, specifically that "(t)hey came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years," where John is saying not that they all came to life and then every single one of them reigned with Christ for the full thousand years, but rather that their coming to life and reigning with Christ is over the course of the thousand years.

You can certainly stay with the former understanding, but you cannot with any credibility at all argue that the latter understanding "doesn't make sense" or that it is not a possible valid understanding of that verse. You may still choose to understand it the way you do, but I would submit to you again that in John's context there in Revelation 20:1-6, the latter is the correct way to see that ending phrase in Revelation 20:5.


That's not what I was saying. I just had a flashback to the visual images in Leviticus 9. What took place there in the desert, I would argue, did and does have ultimate meaning, but I probably shouldn't have brought that up; I can see how that would be confusing. Anyway, by "submit(ting) to you that Jesus IS the fire from heaven," what I was saying was, the "fire (coming) down from heaven" in Revelation 20:9 is Jesus. :) And that one verse, Revelation 20:9, should be seen in the very same light ~ as the very same event, Jesus's return ~ as what John says in Revelation 29:11-16...

"Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems, and He has a name written that no one knows but Himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which He is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following Him on white horses. From His mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords."​

"Kind of"? No, it is... It is what it is... :)


It's not as if "somebody else has the rest," Ronald, it's just, well, the Kingdom is "still under construction," as it were ~ people are still coming to Christ now (the fullness of the Gentiles has not yet been brought in and the partial hardening that is on Israel not yet removed), and will be ushered in in it's fullness and His reign will be in Person when He returns.


There are several places in Scripture even beyond Revelation ~ Old Testament and New Testament alike ~ where 'thousand' is not a hard number but indicative of the concept of fullness and completeness, the full and complete amount, whatever that may actually be numerically speaking, according to God's will. And, as I said, in Revelation, this is true every time.


LOL! There are no "codes," Ronald. All that's needed is to understand the context where it is used. And it's not hard. :)


LOL!!!


You're... misunderstanding what I said about "in part now, but in full later," Ronald. Now you're taking me out of my own context. Which is... not surprising... LOL! His millennial reign is what it is; it is not "in partness." LOL!


Well, yes; as Jesus said in Matthew 12, "...if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house."


LOL! See above. You're a smart fella, Ronald. Does what I have said really not make any sense to you? Or are you just that shut off that you can't understand anything? Well, just won't, I guess... Sigh...


Nope. And nope. See above. I've been very clear, Ronald.

Grace and peace to you.

Well, no, satan is not bound, and 1000 does in fact mean 1000.
You are making the bible fit your doctrine.

 

[PinSeeker]

Well, no, satan is not bound...

He is. Jesus says so in Matthew 12:28-29. The nature of Satan's binding is misunderstood by many.

and 1000 does in fact mean 1000.

It does, but it's context is quite different in Revelation and other passages than many think.

You are making the bible fit your doctrine.

No, quite the other way around.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Keraz]

Our heritage; the promises of God:
Ephesians 1:11-14 In Christ we have been given our share in the heritage, as was decreed in His design …for it was God’s will that we, who were the first to set our hope on Jesus and to praise His glory.

And, in Christ, you Christians also, once you believed and received the Holy Spirit, the promise of the inheritance that will be ours, when God has redeemed all of His own, to His glory and praise.

Ephesians 3:6 Through the Gospel, the Gentiles are joint heirs with the Jews, part of the same body, sharers together in the promises made through Jesus.

Romans 8:16-17 The Spirit of God affirms that we are His children and if children, then also the heirs of God and fellow heirs with Jesus, but we must share His suffering if we are to share His glory.
Romans 8:19 The Created universe is waiting with eager expectation for God’s sons to be revealed.



Our greatest hope as born again Christians, is the promise of Eternal life. John 3:16,Titus 3:5-7, +

But we also inherit the Land promises, Psalms 37:29, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Ezekiel 34:11-31 It is we Christians, from every tribe, race, nation and language, that are the vast multitude seen waving palm branches in Jerusalem. Revelation 7:9
Rev 7 depicts earthly scenes. Even the Throne of God will be on earth; Rev 14-17 is parallel to Revelation 21:1-7

We are the ones who have passed thru the great ordeal of the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster and have earned the white garments by standing firm in our faith. Revelation 7:14

Note: in Romans 8:19, that God’s true children are not yet made known, Jesus will come with His winnowing fork and sift the wheat from the chaff. Matthew 3:12

Those Christians who stood strong in their faith when He comes in fire, Luke 12:49, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8, are the wheat that will be gathered into the granary of the holy Land. The chaff of the ungodly peoples will be as ashes under our feet. Isaiah 66:17, Malachi 4:3, 2 Peter 3:7

 

[Ronald Nolette]

We are the ones who have passed thru the great ordeal of the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster and have earned the white garments by standing firm in our faith. Revelation 7:14

No seals have been opened yet. You should know that!

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

show with actual or even approx. dates when any of these occurred.;

 

[ewq1938]

No seals have been opened yet. You should know that!

Or

All the seals have been opened. You should know that!

Jesus opened them when he ascended into heaven which is why he appeared to John as a slain Lamb and also explains why at first no one could find him or anyone worthy to open the seals. Once Jesus went back to heaven he stays there at the right hand of the Father. The seals are prophecies, not events happening when they were opened.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Or

All the seals have been opened. You should know that!

Jesus opened them when he ascended into heaven which is why he appeared to John as a slain Lamb and also explains why at first no one could find him or anyone worthy to open the seals. Once Jesus went back to heaven he stays there at the right hand of the Father. The seals are prophecies, not events happening when they were opened.

But where would that place the trumps?