The Alternative to a Rapture
- Thread starter Keraz
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
- Jun 20, 2018
- 6,175
- 1,072
- 113
- 83
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- New Zealand
Thank you, Nancy.Actually...there are the Martyrs under the altar in heaven, during the trib....
The souls of the martyrs killed for their faith, ever since Stephen; are kept under the Altar in heaven. They 'sleep' there, but they are allowed to cry out at times.
When Jesus Returns, He will bring the souls of those martyrs killed during the 42 month reign of the 'beast'. They will be brought back to life and will serve King Jesus as priests and co-rulers. revelation 20:4-6
Yes, they are waiting for The Lord's wrath to fall on the ungodly. Thanks for the answer as it kind of threw me when I remembered them under the altar.
It is very, very important to note that in Revelation 20:4, John explicitly says that in this vision he "saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands." All these, collectively, "came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." So who he "saw" there are not just the martyrs, but all those called by God ~ all Christians. And, as people are still being born again of the Spirit and coming to Christ even now... :) The millennium, the "thousand years," the fullness of God's time in which He brings the fullness of the elect Gentiles and the elect ethnic Jews into His Israel, is present, and not ended... yet. For now, God is still drawing people to Himself.
So... yes, when Jesus returns, He will bring with Him all the saints who have gone before. And the second resurrection ~ general and bodily, believer and non-believer alike ~ for many, resurrection to eternal life, and for many others, resurrection to judgment (John 5:28-29) will occur (after Christ's final victory over the devil and his minions). And we all will stand before Him for the judgment, many of us on His right and many others on His left (Matthew 25:31-46). Specifically, regarding the final Judgment, Revelation 20:12 is the judgment of those who are in Christ, those on His right, whose advocate is Jesus (those judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done), and Revelation 20:13 is the judgment of those still in Adam (those given up by the sea and death and Hades), those on Jesus's left, who have no advocate but stand on their own merit.
For John, in the vision, it is as if all these things have happened and are past tense. But it is not yet for him, from his human, temporal perspective... and not yet fully for us, likewise from our human, temporal perspective. However... the outcome is sure. God at the center of everything and is in complete control at all times. Jesus wins, and we in and with Him. And in reading this, we are all blessed, as John says in Revelation 1:3. This is the whole point of John's Revelation.
Grace and peace to all.
So... yes, when Jesus returns, He will bring with Him all the saints who have gone before. And the second resurrection ~ general and bodily, believer and non-believer alike ~ for many, resurrection to eternal life, and for many others, resurrection to judgment (John 5:28-29) will occur (after Christ's final victory over the devil and his minions). And we all will stand before Him for the judgment, many of us on His right and many others on His left (Matthew 25:31-46). Specifically, regarding the final Judgment, Revelation 20:12 is the judgment of those who are in Christ, those on His right, whose advocate is Jesus (those judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done), and Revelation 20:13 is the judgment of those still in Adam (those given up by the sea and death and Hades), those on Jesus's left, who have no advocate but stand on their own merit.
For John, in the vision, it is as if all these things have happened and are past tense. But it is not yet for him, from his human, temporal perspective... and not yet fully for us, likewise from our human, temporal perspective. However... the outcome is sure. God at the center of everything and is in complete control at all times. Jesus wins, and we in and with Him. And in reading this, we are all blessed, as John says in Revelation 1:3. This is the whole point of John's Revelation.
Grace and peace to all.
Last edited:
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
No the saved Israelites are the Israelites of God. The church is the joining of jew and Gentile into one body.
I accept the entire New Testament as written, not reinterpreted.
So you believe the New covenant is now fulfilled. I assume you use the dictionary definition of fulfilled:
fulfilled; fulfilling
Synonyms of fulfill
transitive verb
1
a
: to put into effect : EXECUTE
He fulfilled his pledge to cut taxes.
b
: to meet the requirements of (a business order)
Their order for more TVs was promptly fulfilled.
c
: to measure up to : SATISFY
She hasn't yet fulfilled the requirements needed to graduate.
d
: to bring to an end
she came to install herself and fulfill her time at the house—Willa Cather
2
a
: to develop the full potentialities of
He has a lot of talent, but he hasn't really fulfilled his potential.
b
: to convert into reality
a sense of the failure of life to fulfill its ultimate expectations—Leslie Rees
3
archaic : to make full : FILL
Now as Hebrews 8 is a direct quote of Jeremiah 31 let us post Jeremiah and the first mention of the New Covenant.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.
So now you are declaring that God has fulfilled this covenant with Israel. Let us remember that it is with ethnic Israel for it is to them that the Old covenant was made and it was the fathers of ethnic Israel that broke the Old Covenant.
Now this is to the whole of Israel (as this is what house means here) So all Jews now have the law of God in their inward parts and god is once again their god and Israel is once again gods people.
YOu are also declaring that ethnic Israel no longer has to teach any one to know th eLord for all ethnic Israelis know the Lord from the least to the greatest.
YOu are also declaring that all ethnic Israel has had their sons forgiven and forgotten by god!
This is what the covenant God declared is and what is quoted in Hebrews. If you believe it means different- then the ball is in your court and you must show biblically how this covenant changed form Israel to the church. And you must also show when the church (the body of Christ/the bride of Christ) was called "Spiritual Israel". And make sure you do not violate rules of grammar!~
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
The rest of believers will inherit the earth!
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
King James Version
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
We will be drawn up, meet the Lord in the air and forever dwell with the Lord. The church is promised heaven, not earth.
John 14
King James Version
14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
The rapture is not the second coming of jesus.
I do not make doctrine by songs.
But as for heaven and earth?
Revelation 21
King James Version
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away
I agree! this is for eternity! but for the millenial kingdom, New Jerusalem where the bride of Christ (the church) resides
After the thousand year kingdom! Until Rev. 21 takes place, the church is in heaven in the thhe third heaven.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Your rationale denies what Jesus said in JOhn!
Jesus said "In my Fathers house" that is heaven.
"I go and prepare a place for you" He is not preparing earth for us now.
So our rooms are in the Fathers house and not planet earth.
Too many assume that "come again" means the physical return of Jesus to earth. thesselonians shows that not to be so. the second coming is completely different from the rapture.
I would encourage you to read this short manuscript to see that how jesus deals with teh church follows to a T the Jewish wedding system in the times of Jesus and the rapture is when the groom grabs His bride- and then in front of a small band marries her. that is REv. 19:6-9
All believers will inherit the earth. With Jesus... co-heirs, as it were.
We will go out to meet Him in His return. And yes, we will forever dwell with the Lord. And even now, we are comforted by that. There is nothing there about being taken anywhere or removed to anywhere else.
Both.
There is no rapture. Only the return of Christ Jesus. It will most certainly be rapturous ~ Jesus will take back for good what always was, is, and forever will be His, and even forcefully in effect. But there will be no "rapture."
Ummmmm... O...kaaaaaay... :)
Great! :)
I will ask you, too, Ronald, what I asked ~ rhetorically ~ of another poster a few posts ago: Who is your King? Who is your King, Ronald, right now? Who ~ right now ~ is your King? :)
Well, I agree. I wish you would agree with yourself... :)
Hmmm. So you and I are not part of Christ's Church? We are... The "third heaven" that Paul alludes to in 2 Corinthians 12:2 ~ paradise ~ comes down out of heaven to us. This is new Jerusalem ~ which... yes, Revelation 21... ~ comes down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And then, finally, the dwelling place of God will be ~ as it was in the beginning ~ with man. This is the new heaven and new earth. The two will be finally be one... again, as it was before the fall of Genesis 3.
Grace and peace to you, Ronald.
- Jun 20, 2018
- 6,175
- 1,072
- 113
- 83
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- New Zealand
The 'and', which you bolded, is not in my REB translation, just a comma between - God, those who......
A normal reading of that verse would be to think all of that sentence applied just to those martyrs. Which it does, proved by the next verse; Rev 20:3 though the rest of the dead did not come to life util the thousand years were ended.
The belief of a general resurrection when Jesus Returns is wrong and will not happen.
The point of and the reason for the Book of Revelation, is to inform His servants what must soon take place. Rev 1:1
Do you what that will be? The event which will commence all the end time things, leading up to the glorious Return?
Your confusion is very apparent.
There is only ONE people of God, we Christians are the Overcomers for God; His Israelite people.
More confusion!
I make the case for the New Covenant to be made AFTER all of the Lord's peoples have gathered into all of the Holy Land. It is plainly seen that Hebrews 8:8-12 remains unfulfilled.
ewq1938
Well-Known Member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 7,298
- 1,454
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
I'm quoting the ESV, which I believe to be more true to the manuscripts than others... "Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands." The comma and the 'and' are there, and it is more accurate. The RSB is the result of collaboration between biblical scholars in the mainline Protestant Christian churches in the United Kingdom and Ireland to revise the New English Bible and was released in 1989 but has never been popular or widely used. I don't really mean that to be an indictment on the RSB, but... it kind of is. At any rate, the effect is the same.
Well, I would say two things to that: 1) if so, it would likely be that they already have an idea of what it should be and are just trying to find a way to make it fit with their... "preferred narrative", and/or 2) normal and good are two different things; yes, at least somewhat normal that reading may be, but even if so does not make it a good reading. :)
Ah. Well, what I would say to this assertion, Keraz, is that your inference from Revelation 20:3 is valid ~ that absolutely none of "the rest" come to life until the thousand years first end ~ but not accurate. There is another very valid way to understand Revelation 20:3 ~ that "the rest" come to life over the course of the thousand years, and then the thousand years were (past tense, but John is being given this vision in the context of it being past, therefore the past-tense 'were') ended ~ and it is the accurate one. :) You may say the latter is "convoluted," or characterize it as "verbal gymnastics," or some such, but it's not. I would exhort you to try to see it from that perspective.
Disagree. I agree that what you say is very important, else this vision might not even have been given to John, and the Spirit probably would not have included it in God's Word. But the question then, is, why must these things take place? And, like I said, everything that happens will be for God's glory, first and foremost. What is revealed in Revelation is certainly for our benefit, for sure; thus, what John ~ and really God ~ says in Revelation 1:3... "Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near."
Absolutely.
The New Covenant, Keraz, is prophesied by Jeremiah ~ you probably agree with that ~ and commenced with the coming of Jesus and then the Holy Spirit, when, as opposed to previously, God began to put His law within us, and write it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33) by His Spirit through Jesus... rather than on tablets of stone given through Moses. As Christians, God has written His law on our hearts by His Spirit through Jesus, Who, actually, is the Covenant in its fullness... after it was revealed progressively in lesser but newer and better cumulative ways, through Adam and Noah (life and life renewed), Abraham (land and a people/nation), Moses (law), and David (a king).
...completely. Not yet completely filled. :)
Grace and peace to you.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
This is why you are not making sense. You indicate John wrote about those in the first century whose souls left their physical body. Some had heads, others not so much, but it does not matter. In both cases the souls left a healthy body, while other souls left a body that no longer has a head connected to it. These souls have been reigning ever since the first century without a body. The first resurrection is not having a body at all, but only a soul?
Why would John leave those in the first century until last, when all the other chapters were about the Second Coming souls?
If there were only souls in heaven who was left on the earth, because the first resurrection has to happen prior to the return of Jesus?
Having pointed that out, would it not be easier to say these were physically resurrected after the return of Christ? The return was when Satan was defeated who was responsible for these souls loosing their head in the first place. And also the time many were not worshipping Satan nor receiving the mark. The return brought an end to that time period.
- Jun 20, 2018
- 6,175
- 1,072
- 113
- 83
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- New Zealand
Rather than people being resurrected during the Millennium, more faithful Christians will die. Isaiah 65:20My perspective, my paradigm, my belief, is the Biblical truth that no one is raised to immortality until the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium.
Those martyrs that Jesus will raise back to life at His Return, do not become immortal, as the example of Lazarus did not. But for Lazarus and those GT martyrs, their second; natural death, will not affect their eventual receiving of immortality., as their names will be found Written in the Book of Life. Revelation 20:11-15
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
John 14 proves that wrong.
Nothing there about Jesus coming to earth. It just says He descends and we meet Him in the air! Nothing about us coming back to earthj after being caught up into the air.
Already showed you the bible says you are wrong.
Jesus, who is also my fiance' and my groom to be.
I agree with the bible as written.
I said we are the church several times. If you cannot read well, that is your problem not mine.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
sorry but you have dead Christians going to heaven and living christians staying on earth at the rapture. But in the rapture:
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
King James Version
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
we meet the dead in the air and go to our Fathers house! YOu have Christians split between heaven and earth. Scriptural proof?
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
In this age but the OT saints do not have the same inheritance as the church or the trib saints, the bible makes that clear. NOwhere does Paul call the church nor does Jesus.
In this age we the church are the overcomers.
But the OT saints are not part of the church!
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
To be fair, the term church by itself is just a called out assembly. That is the Greek word used as church in English translations. The dictionary definition is not even how we use the word in these forums. Nor does the term ecclesia mean something spiritual in Greek. Matthew 18:20
"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
Also the term church has no relevance in heaven. There is no one else there but sons of God. So a called out assembly only works on earth in opposition to the world. Israel called out of Egypt defines exactly what a church is.
No one has an inheritance prior to the Second Coming. Hebrews 11:10
"For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.... These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."
A city? All since Abraham have looked for that city. That never changed at the Cross. Revelation 21:2-4
"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."
That city holds all the redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. No one who has entered heaven returns to earth until the NHNE. The Millennium is not for the church. The Millennium is not for any one currently in Paradise. Let's read that again:
"And truly, if they had been mindful of that country (earth) from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly (Paradise) : wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city (the New Jerusalem)."
Paul never said we will be with Jesus forever on the earth. He did not even say the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul said the Lord. That is the entire trinity in one.
When the rapture happens the redeemed are going up, and remain in Paradise until the NHNE. Jesus is on the way to the Mount of Olives. Matthew 25:31
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"
Jesus will sit as King on earth until the NHNE. 1 Corinthians 15:25-28
"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."
In the New Jerusalem there will not even be a separation of heaven and earth, nor even the need for a trinity even if still in tact. The Lord will be as one building, the temple of the New Jerusalem.
"And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."
- Jun 20, 2018
- 6,175
- 1,072
- 113
- 83
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- New Zealand
Isaiah 57:1-2 The righteous perish and no one is concerned, those loyal to their faith are persecuted; they achieve peace at last on their deathbed.
Isaiah 57:3-11 Come near, you children of sin; spawn of a lie. You practice idolatry, desert your Maker and make bargains with men. You don’t think that your plight is desperate, because now, you have renewed vigour, you do not worry about your future. As the Lord kept silent and looked away, so you don’t fear Him, don’t remember Him or give Him a thought.
Isaiah 57:12-15 Now I shall expose your conduct, that what you think is right. Your idols will not help you; when disaster comes, your strength will vanish.
But he who puts his trust in Me will possess the Land and inherit My holy Place. Then the Lord will say: Prepare the way for My people, let them come to the Place of My dwelling. I will revive the spirit of the humble and the courage of the disheartened.
Isaiah 57:16-19 I shall not always be accusing, I shall not keep My wrath forever, or else the spirit of mankind would fail because of Me. For a short time, I was angry with My people, I withdrew My favour from Israel because of their sins. Despite their conduct, I will heal them and give them relief and comfort. Those who mourn for Israel will then praise Me, as I heal and save them. There will be peace for all, both far and near. Reference: REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.
‘the righteous perish’ - the persecution of Christians now and throughout the ages. Matthew 23:35, Revelation 6:9-11
‘you practice idolatry - The apostate and atheistic peoples of today have no idea that their judgement is coming. Ezekiel 20:39, Romans 2:9-11
‘renewed strength’- The descendants of Jacob today, in the Christian nations, have become numerous, rich and powerful, so they no longer ‘give the Lord a thought’.
‘when disaster comes, your strength will vanish’ - the Lords Day of vengeance and wrath. Isaiah 17:4-6 The military powers of the world will be destroyed or neutralized by this judgement against the Lord’s enemies, which will ‘prepare the way’, for the return to the Land of My people. Jeremiah 31:21, Isaiah 43:5-7, Ezekiel 20:34
The punishment and exile of Israel and Judah is for a decreed time; ‘a short time’, to the Lord. Now, as that term of exile nears completion, we look forward to ‘relief and comfort’ and ‘peace for all’, for EVERY faithful Christian, from every tribe, race, nation and language, in the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Ezekiel 37:26
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
1. The two are three, you are ripping way out of its context to mean something the bible did not declare it to be.
Yes ecclesia is formally a called out group. So a political crowd can be an ecclesia! Same with a crowd who all go to a ball game.
But the church as we use it is the body of Christ and more specifically a local assembly of believers under a believing pastor teacher.
Well if you wish to be extremely punctilious, then what we call the church is called biblically the bride of Christ and we are ion heaven in Rev. 19:
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
OT saints and tribulation saints are not part of the bride of christ.
I have said that in many threads. the millenial kingdom is for the survivors of the tribulation.
YOur first statement is silly. god is a trinity. Has been from eternity past and will remain so in eternity future.
And once again the New Jerusalem is part of what can be called the eternal order. It is different than thte order for the millenial kingdom which will be on earth.
- Jun 20, 2018
- 6,175
- 1,072
- 113
- 83
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- New Zealand
Discuss this!
Read and believe what the Bible Prophets have told us, or remain in the darkness of confusion and false beliefs.
Similar threads
