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mailmandan

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And how, exactly, do you think that happens? Do you believe that God talks to you directly? That is not what 1 Thessalonians 1:5 is saying. Paul is once again affirming his own divine revelation, It has nothing to do with you, personally. When he stated in the last part of that verse, "You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake", the "we" is not you, but is the editorial "we" of the apostles and prophets of Jesus Christ to whom divine inspiration was given.
You are in denial. It sounds to me like you fall into the paper, ink and human intelligence (minus the Holy Spirit) category. The "you" is to the church of the Thessalonians (vs. 1). For our gospel did not come to "you" in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men, we were among you for your sake. And you became followers of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit, so that you became examples to all in Macedonia and Achaia who believe. (1 Thessalonians 1:5-7)
 
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mailmandan

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And you have done it again. You have changed the meaning of the word faith as it is used in scripture. "Muster up faith in Christ thereby believing Him" ? ? ? That is a completely nonsensical statement. Faith in Christ IS believing Him. But it is more than just believing Christ, it is believing IN Christ. Faith in Christ is believing in Christ. That is the definition. And that, we are told, "comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ" (Rom 10:17).
Hebrews 4:12 - For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So much for mere paper, ink and human intelligence. ;)
 
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JBO

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You are in denial. It sounds to me like you fall into the paper, ink and human intelligence (minus the Holy Spirit) category. The "you" is to the church of the Thessalonians (vs. 1). For our gospel did not come to "you" in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men, we were among you for your sake. And you became followers of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit, so that you became examples to all in Macedonia and Achaia who believe. (1 Thessalonians 1:5-7)
Yes the "you" are the church. The "we" are the divinely inspired messengers of God, His apostles and prophets. You, mailmandan, are neither.
 

JBO

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Hebrews 4:12 - For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So much for mere paper, ink and human intelligence. ;)
The word of God is sufficiently contained in the scriptures produced by the apostles and prophets of God through the Holy Spirit. There is no need for anything else; it is complete. That you think that more is needed is an afront to God.
 

Ritajanice

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Hebrews 4:12 - For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
How could a “ carnal” mind understand this.....they couldn’t.

Romans 8:7-9​

Romans 8:7-9 NKJV​

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His
 
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CadyandZoe

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First, the spiritually dead do not suffer any particular physical ability. They do not gain any physical abilities when they are born again. Becoming born again, i.e., regenerated, does not produce any sudden increases in intellect or wisdom.
Although I understand your point that regeneration may not necessarily enhance one's intellect or wisdom, I would like to discuss the concept of unbelief. Do you agree that unbelief is not simply a lack of knowledge or intellect? The apostle Paul, in the first chapter of Romans, describes unbelief as a resistance to truth and a willful suppression of knowledge. The wrath of God was not poured out on the ignorant or the inexperienced. The wrath of God was poured out on those who already knew the truth, but chose to ignore it.

The biblical definition of "unbelief."
Knowing the truth and yet choosing to ignore the truth or suppress the truth. (Romans 1:18 ff)

According to this definition, unbelief is a matter of the will, so regeneration is a restoration of the will. An unregenerate person refuses to accept that they are a sinner, whereas a regenerate individual not only recognizes their sinfulness but also accepts it without question. Being born again and sanctified by the Spirit of God involves removing self-imposed barriers to belief. The Bible describes this process as removing scales from the eyes, unstopping the ears, and softening hearts that were hardened against the truth.

Thus, the ordo-salutis begins with the opening of the eyes, the loosening of the ears, the softening of the heart, and removing all self-imposed barriers to belief within a single individual. Salvation is a personal encounter with the divine.

@mailmandan @rwb
 
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CadyandZoe

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Hebrews 4:12 - For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So much for mere paper, ink and human intelligence. ;)
Right. Just as a Roman sword would open up a gapping wound, exposing what is underneath the skin, the word of God (the promise of God) reveals what is below the surface, spiritually speaking. How we respond to the promises of God reveals who we are inside.
 
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CadyandZoe

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How could a “ carnal” mind understand this.....they couldn’t.

Romans 8:7-9​

Romans 8:7-9 NKJV​

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His
In this context, Paul's argument is centered on the content of the mind rather than the mind itself. He is not implying that the human mind is made of flesh. Instead, his conclusion is based on those who rely on the flesh to seek God's justification. Here, the term 'flesh' refers to two primary concepts, namely, pedigree and ritual practices.

Some folks believe that God favors the Hebrew people, simply because they are Hebrew. The mind focused on pedigree is at enmity with God. With regard to salvation, there is neither Jew or Gentile, Male or Female, Slave or Free. God is no respecter of persons and doesn't judge a person as "justified" based on human categories such as race.

Other folks believed that God favors those who keep Moses and perform every required ritual practice. Those who keep their minds on ritual practices as the means to gain God's favor are also at enmity with God.

The child of God's focus is inward and involves having faith, trust, loyalty, and a true self-assessment. It also means having a genuine understanding of God's values, likes, dislikes, and love. Therefore, our battle is within ourselves, where our life and the Spirit intersect.
 
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JBO

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Although I understand your point that regeneration may not necessarily enhance one's intellect or wisdom, I would like to discuss the concept of unbelief. Do you agree that unbelief is not simply a lack of knowledge or intellect? The apostle Paul, in the first chapter of Romans, describes unbelief as a resistance to truth and a willful suppression of knowledge. The wrath of God was not poured out on the ignorant or the inexperienced. The wrath of God was poured out on those who already knew the truth, but chose to ignore it.
Yes, I would agree with most of that. The truth that they knew was a truth that is available by observation of creation.
The biblical definition of "unbelief."
Knowing the truth and yet choosing to ignore the truth or suppress the truth. (Romans 1:18 ff)
Paul says, they did not honor God or given thanks to Him.

According to this definition, unbelief is a matter of the will, so regeneration is a restoration of the will.
No, that is no quite right. It is not the will that is restored; it is spiritual life that is restored.
An unregenerate person refuses to accept that they are a sinner, whereas a regenerate individual not only recognizes their sinfulness but also accepts it without question. Being born again and sanctified by the Spirit of God involves removing self-imposed barriers to belief. The Bible describes this process as removing scales from the eyes, unstopping the ears, and softening hearts that were hardened against the truth.
You would have one believe, i.e., have faith, after they have been regenerated. But God says that it is they who believe, i.e., have faith, that are regenerated. Paul says in Ephesians 2:1,5 that "you were dead in the trespasses and sins "; but God, "even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- " That is the description of the condition of the spirit; once dead in trespasses and sins but now alive.

He then in verse 8 says that this was done by grace through faith. Similar descriptions as this are given in several passages in the NT. One I particularly like is the description given in Colossians 2: 11-13. Paul says there, "In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, "

Notice specifically what is said there. That is a description of regeneration. The spirit, once dead in trespasses and sins, is now made alive by forgiving all the trespasses. It is called there a circumcision made without hands. Paul says this was all accomplished through faith. That is important, because it shows without question that it is first faith then regeneration, not vice-versa as you proclaim.
 

CadyandZoe

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Yes, I would agree with most of that. The truth that they knew was a truth that is available by observation of creation.

Paul says, they did not honor God or given thanks to Him.
Yes, of course. My point was focused on Paul's argument concerning God's wrath, which he poured out on those who suppressed the truth in unrighteousness. Suppressing knowledge about God, even though God's existence is evident from what he created, is worthy of God's wrath. Unbelief is essentially the act of refusing to acknowledge what one already knows to be true. Jesus often spoke about unbelief in the context of the Pharisees' reactions to his miracles. These men knew that Jesus could not perform the miracles unless God was with him. Despite witnessing the miracles, the Pharisees refused to believe that Jesus was the messiah.



No, that is no quite right. It is not the will that is restored; it is spiritual life that is restored.
Is not the will an aspect of spiritual life? Doesn't spiritual restoration have an impact on our intent?
You would have one believe, i.e., have faith, after they have been regenerated.
"Studying the Gospel of John sheds light on the topic of belief. The book is essentially a treatise on belief, answering the question of why some people believe while others refuse to do so. It's fascinating to ponder how someone with a closed mind, closed ears, and a hardened heart can suddenly confess that Jesus is both Lord and Savior. Such an event is inexplicable in the natural world, but as a miracle of God, it makes sense." Faith in God is not the cause of salvation; faith in God is the result of salvation.
But God says that it is they who believe, i.e., have faith, that are regenerated. Paul says in Ephesians 2:1,5 that "you were dead in the trespasses and sins "; but God, "even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- " That is the description of the condition of the spirit; once dead in trespasses and sins but now alive.
In the given passage, Paul does not mention the spirit. Hence, it is not right to suggest that anyone has a 'dead' spirit. The term 'dead' is often used by Paul to refer to being 'condemned to death.' Therefore, when we lived in sin, we were under the sentence of death. But now, as we are 'with Christ' or 'in Christ,' we have the hope of eternal life. God's grace is the means through which we are saved.
He then in verse 8 says that this was done by grace through faith.
In this sentence, the words "by" and "through" have different meanings. "By Grace" means that grace is the reason why someone is saved. On the other hand, "through faith" means that faith is the tangible evidence that salvation is taking place.
Similar descriptions as this are given in several passages in the NT. One I particularly like is the description given in Colossians 2: 11-13. Paul says there, "In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, "

Notice specifically what is said there. That is a description of regeneration. The spirit, once dead in trespasses and sins, is now made alive by forgiving all the trespasses. It is called there a circumcision made without hands. Paul says this was all accomplished through faith. That is important, because it shows without question that it is first faith then regeneration, not vice-versa as you proclaim.
I wonder if Paul is talking about our faith or Christ's faith here. I need to study this passage further. Was Jesus putting his faith in the powerful working of God when he went to the cross?
 

JBO

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Is not the will an aspect of spiritual life? Doesn't spiritual restoration have an impact on our intent?
Not directly. In spiritual restoration, i.e., being born again, the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit is given. The Holy Spirit provides help to the one restored to live as God would have him live.
"Studying the Gospel of John sheds light on the topic of belief. The book is essentially a treatise on belief, answering the question of why some people believe while others refuse to do so. It's fascinating to ponder how someone with a closed mind, closed ears, and a hardened heart can suddenly confess that Jesus is both Lord and Savior. Such an event is inexplicable in the natural world, but as a miracle of God, it makes sense." Faith in God is not the cause of salvation; faith in God is the result of salvation.
That is simply not true. That of course is the soteriology promoted by Calvinist/Reformed Theology. But it is wrong. There is not a single passage in all of the Bible that ever makes the statement that faith is the result of salvation. Faith of a person is a condition through which God promises to save that person. Perhaps the most straightforward statement of that fact is Mark 16:16 in which Jesus says, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved". Jesus also says In John 5:24,25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment but has passed from death to life. Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live." What Jesus has described there is regeneration. The conditional element there is hearing Jesus and believing God. Thus there again, it is the one who believes, i.e., has faith, that lives. That he does not come into judgment but has passed from death to life is a statement of salvation. We know that is not the resurrection at the end of the age when Jesus returns because He said, "and hour is coming and now is" He speaks of the resurrection at the end of the age in verses 28 and 29.
In the given passage, Paul does not mention the spirit. Hence, it is not right to suggest that anyone has a 'dead' spirit. The term 'dead' is often used by Paul to refer to being 'condemned to death.' Therefore, when we lived in sin, we were under the sentence of death. But now, as we are 'with Christ' or 'in Christ,' we have the hope of eternal life. God's grace is the means through which we are saved.
Where does Paul use the term 'dead' to refer to being condemned to a death other than spiritual death? There are basically three deaths in scripture. There is a fouth use of the term dead and that is being dead to sin (Rom 6). But that is a bit different and I won't bother to go there now. There is physical death, there is spiritual death and there is the second death. The phrase, dead in trespasses and sins is used only in reference to spiritual death. And that is certainly the case in Ephesians 2:1,5.
In this sentence, the words "by" and "through" have different meanings. "By Grace" means that grace is the reason why someone is saved. On the other hand, "through faith" means that faith is the tangible evidence that salvation is taking place.
Wrong again. Faith is the differentiating factor in God's choice of whom He saves.
I wonder if Paul is talking about our faith or Christ's faith here. I need to study this passage further. Was Jesus putting his faith in the powerful working of God when he went to the cross?
The very idea that Jesus had or needed faith in God is an oxymoron. There is never a time in the life of Jesus, where it is stated that He had faith or needed faith in God to be the perfect sacrifice for all humanity. Hebrews eleven is the faith chapter. It defines faith as "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.." There is no way whatsoever to apply that to Jesus. Jesus knew precisely everything about the salvation of mankind. There was nothing about God's plan of salvation that Jesus did not know in the absolute. The chapter goes on to describe the results that were brought about by the faith of some of the major 'men of old'. I find it particularly interesting and instructive that in that entire 'faith' chapter, Jesus is not mentioned once. In chapter twelve the writer does talk about Jesus in relation to faith. In Hebrews 12 2 he says that Jesus is the 'author and perfector of faith'. Clearly the author and perfector of faith is not one who himself would need faith.
 

Ritajanice

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Can someone show me where the gift of the Holy Spirit is given, in Gods word?

We are Born of God, Spirit gives birth to spirit, nowhere can I find that God says “the Holy Spirit is given”?

God says .

John 3:3​

King James Version​

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
 
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JBO

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Can someone show me where the gift of the Holy Spirit is given, in Gods word?

We are Born of God, Spirit gives birth to spirit, nowhere can I find that God says “the Holy Spirit is given”?

God says .

John 3:3​

King James Version​

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Act 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
 

Ritajanice

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Faith comes from God and no one else....he gives us a measure of Faith....Faith is Alive and it comes via the Holy Spirit, who testifies with our spirit that we are children of God...

Without faith given by God, we are unable to please him...

Ephesians 2:8-10​

Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV​

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 
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CadyandZoe

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Perhaps the most straightforward statement of that fact is Mark 16:16 in which Jesus says, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved". Jesus also says In John 5:24,25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment but has passed from death to life. Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."
Jesus is not prescribing how people are being saved, but rather describing what happens and indicating who is being saved. Therefore, the order of salvation cannot be discerned from this statement.

Where does Paul use the term 'dead' to refer to being condemned to a death other than spiritual death?
Almost everywhere. But there is no such thing as spiritual death. Either one is dead or they are alive.
Wrong again. Faith is the differentiating factor in God's choice of whom He saves.
Not in that context. Paul says that we are saved by Grace through faith. Grace is the causal agent of salvation. Faith is the evidence that Grace has been applied to a specific person. (Hebrews 11:1)
The very idea that Jesus had or needed faith in God is an oxymoron.
An oxymoron is a figure of speech that combines two words or phrases that have opposite or contradictory meanings, such as "jumbo shrimp" or "deafening silence". I don't think you meant to say "oxymoron." Did you? And why don't you think that Jesus had faith? Faith is trusting God's word. I don't think you mean to say that Jesus didn't trust in God's word do you?
Hebrews eleven is the faith chapter. It defines faith as "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.."
"That is a mistaken interpretation. In the chapter being discussed, Paul does not define faith. Instead, he argues that faith, whatever it may be, serves as proof of justification. In other words, the presence of faith acts as evidence that God has justified us. But how can our faith serve as evidence of what God has done if it wasn't God who caused us to have faith in the first place?"
There is no way whatsoever to apply that to Jesus. Jesus knew precisely everything about the salvation of mankind. There was nothing about God's plan of salvation that Jesus did not know in the absolute.
Well, Jesus admits that he doesn't know the day or the hour of his coming. Therefore, we conclude that unlike the Father, Jesus was not omniscient. But we are talking about faith, which is trusting in God's word. And Jesus certainly trusted in God's word.
The chapter goes on to describe the results that were brought about by the faith of some of the major 'men of old'. I find it particularly interesting and instructive that in that entire 'faith' chapter, Jesus is not mentioned once. In chapter twelve the writer does talk about Jesus in relation to faith. In Hebrews 12 2 he says that Jesus is the 'author and perfector of faith'. Clearly the author and perfector of faith is not one who himself would need faith.
Here the term "faith" is in the noun form. Paul is saying that Jesus is the author and perfecter of THE FAITH, meaning the content of what we believe.
 

Ritajanice

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Almost everywhere. But there is no such thing as spiritual death. Either one is dead or they are alive.

Ephesians 2:1-10​




1 In the past you were spiritually dead because of your disobedience and sins. 1
2 At that time you followed the world's evil way; you obeyed the ruler of the spiritual powers in space, the spirit who now controls the people who disobey God.
3 Actually all of us were like them and lived according to our natural desires, doing whatever suited the wishes of our own bodies and minds. In our natural condition we, like everyone else, were destined to suffer God's anger.
4 But God's mercy is so abundant, and his love for us is so great,
5 that while we were spiritually dead in our disobedience he brought us to life with Christ. It is by God's grace that you have been saved.
6 In our union with Christ Jesus he raised us up with him to rule with him in the heavenly world.
7 He did this to demonstrate for all time to come the extraordinary greatness of his grace in the love he showed us in Christ Jesus.
8 For it is by God's grace that you have been saved through faith. It is not the result of your own efforts,
9 but God's gift, so that no one can boast about it.
10 God has made us what we are, and in our union with Christ Jesus he has created us for a life of good deeds, which he has already prepared for us to do.
 

CadyandZoe

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Ephesians 2:1-10​




1 In the past you were spiritually dead because of your disobedience and sins. 1
2 At that time you followed the world's evil way; you obeyed the ruler of the spiritual powers in space, the spirit who now controls the people who disobey God.
3 Actually all of us were like them and lived according to our natural desires, doing whatever suited the wishes of our own bodies and minds. In our natural condition we, like everyone else, were destined to suffer God's anger.
4 But God's mercy is so abundant, and his love for us is so great,
5 that while we were spiritually dead in our disobedience he brought us to life with Christ. It is by God's grace that you have been saved.
6 In our union with Christ Jesus he raised us up with him to rule with him in the heavenly world.
7 He did this to demonstrate for all time to come the extraordinary greatness of his grace in the love he showed us in Christ Jesus.
8 For it is by God's grace that you have been saved through faith. It is not the result of your own efforts,
9 but God's gift, so that no one can boast about it.
10 God has made us what we are, and in our union with Christ Jesus he has created us for a life of good deeds, which he has already prepared for us to do.
Paul doesn't use the terminology "spiritually dead" as your translation has it.* Paul uses the terms "dead" and "alive" to connote my status with respect to God's commandments and statutes. If I am walking in the way of God's commandments, then I am "alive"; but If I am not walking in the way of God's commandments then I am a "dead man."

The terms "dead" and "alive" have been used in passages such as Genesis 20:1-7 and by Paul in the same sense. In Genesis 20:3, God warns Abimelech that he is "a dead man" if he doesn't release Sarah, Abraham's wife. Similarly, in verse 7, God warns Abimelech that he and his people shall surely die if they don't comply. Paul also uses these terms to describe his conversion experience in Romans chapter 7.

Romans 7:7-12
What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Paul isn't speaking about literal death here. He has employed the terms "dead" and "alive" in a figurative sense to indicate his status with regard to eternal life. Before he came to understand the sin of coveting he was "alive" with respect to the Law and God's promise of life. But once he understood the profound significance of the sin of coveting, he "died" and was no longer "alive" with respect to the law. This kind of language points back to God's promise to Israel that if they kept the law, they would live long and prosper in the land of promise. He was "dead" with respect to God's promise of life.

Once Paul realized this, he was free to seek another means to find life, which is the eternal life that is found in Jesus Christ.

In the past, the Law dictated that if you followed it, you would live. However, Paul realized that he couldn't follow the Law, which meant that he was essentially a dead man walking. In one of his earlier writings, Paul also expressed that the consequences of sin are death. Therefore, if someone is living in sin, they are considered "dead" in their sins. On the other hand, if someone follows Christ, they are "alive" and are destined for eternal life.

______________________
*In fact, your translation contains a lot of errors.
 

Ritajanice

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Paul doesn't use the terminology "spiritually dead" as your translation has it.* Paul uses the terms "dead" and "alive" to connote my status with respect to God's commandments and statutes. If I am walking in the way of God's commandments, then I am "alive"; but If I am not walking in the way of God's commandments then I am a "dead man."

The terms "dead" and "alive" have been used in passages such as Genesis 20:1-7 and by Paul in the same sense. In Genesis 20:3, God warns Abimelech that he is "a dead man" if he doesn't release Sarah, Abraham's wife. Similarly, in verse 7, God warns Abimelech that he and his people shall surely die if they don't comply. Paul also uses these terms to describe his conversion experience in Romans chapter 7.

Romans 7:7-12
What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Paul isn't speaking about literal death here. He has employed the terms "dead" and "alive" in a figurative sense to indicate his status with regard to eternal life. Before he came to understand the sin of coveting he was "alive" with respect to the Law and God's promise of life. But once he understood the profound significance of the sin of coveting, he "died" and was no longer "alive" with respect to the law. This kind of language points back to God's promise to Israel that if they kept the law, they would live long and prosper in the land of promise. He was "dead" with respect to God's promise of life.

Once Paul realized this, he was free to seek another means to find life, which is the eternal life that is found in Jesus Christ.

In the past, the Law dictated that if you followed it, you would live. However, Paul realized that he couldn't follow the Law, which meant that he was essentially a dead man walking. In one of his earlier writings, Paul also expressed that the consequences of sin are death. Therefore, if someone is living in sin, they are considered "dead" in their sins. On the other hand, if someone follows Christ, they are "alive" and are destined for eternal life.

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*In fact, your translation contains a lot of errors.
Spiritual death is spiritual death and I understand it well....As I was once dead and void of Gods Spirit......until he decided to make me Alive in his Spirit.

We were once “ void” of Gods Spirit...until as I just said, decided to Spirit gives birth to spirit.....he births our spirit into his....that’s what Spirit gives birth to spirit means.....his Spirit is Alive and he brings our spirit Alive..via the Holy Spirit....

There is nothing complicated in being Born of God...very easy to understand...I don’t needs loads of commentary to understand what Born Again means...that is testified with our spirit that we are Gods children....it’s a “ Living “ birth...you know that right?

I only understand the word of God through the Holy Spirit...I know you try to help others understand.but, with respect I only understand a little of what “ you teach”....

The Holy Spirit is my teacher and I only recognise his voice......he’s in control of all of my understanding of HIS word....I have and do ignore a lot of what is said by others.....as I don’t recognise the word of God through them...and I’m sure they do / think the same about what I say...

And the translation that I posted , contains no errors..that’s a matter of opinion..

Spiritual death is real...which you seem not to understand........he brings our spirit that is dead and in sin, Alive...which is a supernatural act that only God can do......

Maybe Got commentary will help you understand..that’s if it’s Gods will.


What is spiritual death?​

translate spiritual death
audio

ANSWER

Death is separation. A physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death, which is of greater significance, is the separation of the soul from God. In Genesis 2:17, God tells Adam that in the day he eats of the forbidden fruit he will “surely die.” Adam does fall, but his physical death does not occur immediately; God must have had another type of death in mind—spiritual death. This separation from God is exactly what we see in Genesis 3:8. When Adam and Eve heard the voice of the Lord, they “hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God.” The fellowship had been broken. They were spiritually dead.

A man without Christ is spiritually dead. Paul describes it as “being alienated from the life of God” in Ephesians 4:18. (To be separated from life is the same as being dead.) The natural man, like Adam hiding in the garden, is isolated from God. When we are born again, the spiritual death is reversed. Before salvation, we are dead (spiritually), but Jesus gives us life. “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,” (Ephesians 2:1 NKJV). “When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins” (Colossians 2:13).

To illustrate, think of Jesus’ raising of Lazarus in John 11. The physically dead Lazarus could do nothing for himself. He was unresponsive to all stimuli, oblivious to all life around him, beyond all help or hope—except for the help of Christ who is “the Resurrection and the Life” (John 11:25). At Christ’s call, Lazarus was filled with life, and he responded accordingly. In the same way, we were spiritually dead, unable to save ourselves, powerless to perceive the life of God—until Jesus called us to Himself. He “quickened” us; “not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy” (Titus 3:5).

The book of Revelation speaks of a “second death,” which is a final (and eternal) separation from God. Only those who have never experienced new life in Christ will partake of the second death (Revelation 2:11; 20:6, 14; 21:8).
 
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Ritajanice

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Almost everywhere. But there is no such thing as spiritual death. Either one is dead or they are alive.
Yes there is such a thing as “ spiritual death”...only you don’t understand what it means..therefore you are not in a position to say such a thing....

I just hope my post above helps you understand it better...that’s if it’s Gods will....I’m quite surprised to be honest, that you say such a thing.

I was alienated from God as a non believer..only I never knew such a thing...not until God brought my spirit Alive in his, by Spirit gives birth to spirit...Born of God......an incredible act from God....when he brings our spirit out of the worlds darkness and sin....then transfers us into his light, by the Holy Spirit....


I thank God that I only listen to the Spirit of God and not mans/ woman’s words, as they are full of errors...including my own no doubt....but, until God shows me my errors and we all are in error at times...only then can we hear his voice, which penetrates our heart...until that time...I will carry on in the Spirit..
 
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JBO

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Jesus is not prescribing how people are being saved, but rather describing what happens and indicating who is being saved. Therefore, the order of salvation cannot be discerned from this statement.
That is a terrible distortion of the truth presented in that verse. The meaning is simple and straightforward for anyone not disoriented through false doctrines.
Almost everywhere. But there is no such thing as spiritual death. Either one is dead or they are alive.
Are you seriously suggesting that Ephesians 2:1 is speaking about persons being physically dead? Or that Ephesians 2:5 is speaking about physically dead persons brought back to life?. I would hope that is not what you believe.

Not in that context. Paul says that we are saved by Grace through faith. Grace is the causal agent of salvation. Faith is the evidence that Grace has been applied to a specific person. (Hebrews 11:1)
Another gross distortion.
An oxymoron is a figure of speech that combines two words or phrases that have opposite or contradictory meanings, such as "jumbo shrimp" or "deafening silence". I don't think you meant to say "oxymoron." Did you? And why don't you think that Jesus had faith? Faith is trusting God's word. I don't think you mean to say that Jesus didn't trust in God's word do you?
Yes, faith indeed involves trust in the object of that faith. However, faith involves mental assent of something that is not known absolutely or cannot be proven existentially. John 1:1 tells us that "In the beginning was the Christ, and the Christ was with God, and the Christ was God." Jesus being God in the flesh knew absolutely and existentially the fact of God and God's Word. There was nothing of the sort described and defined by Hebrews 11:1 in Jesus' knowledge of God. He neither had nor needed faith in God. He was God, the Son.
"That is a mistaken interpretation. In the chapter being discussed, Paul does not define faith. Instead, he argues that faith, whatever it may be, serves as proof of justification. In other words, the presence of faith acts as evidence that God has justified us. But how can our faith serve as evidence of what God has done if it wasn't God who caused us to have faith in the first place?"
Hebrews 11:1 most definitely defines faith. In the rest of the chapter, the author demonstrated, through the the results of the faith of each person spoken of, what he meant by the definition he gave in that first verse. That is made evident by the last statement in the chapter, "And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect."
Here the term "faith" is in the noun form. Paul is saying that Jesus is the author and perfecter of THE FAITH, meaning the content of what we believe.
Yes, Jesus is the object of our faith. He is not a demonstration of what faith is. As I said, "Jesus' faith" is an oxymoron.