CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Your response did not effectively rebut his argument. It is evident to everyone but you that his claim pertains to scriptures that readers can access in their own language.
Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author
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ScottA
Well-Known Member
The biblical narrative certainly does elaborate all things as if they were coming to fruition on this worldly timeline--but that is just the revelation of all that is written--written before the world began. These events were written and did occur "before the foundation of the world" and are now only read as the words of a book as a testimony before the judgement.
So, yes, one can rightly examine the contents of the book as its on context--but not as if the reading or revelation of it is the actual reality of what is true in God and was "before the foundation of the world." But that--this would-be reality, is not what the book is even about, but rather is about what occurred before this world was ever created and is now only revealed.
Thus, the term "restoration" does apply in the context of events as they are now being revealed...but it is not an accurate term to describe the matter according to the "all truth" version of the matter as it actually exists in God--which is the knowledge that we should now be coming to understand.
Whats so significant about "before the foundation of the world?"
1 Peter 1:19-20
King James Version
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
I not so sure I understand your whole take of it.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
May I offer my "opinion?" :)
Consider the following verse.
John 17:24
Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
According to Jesus, the Father loved him even before the world was created. However, Jesus' message goes beyond this. He explains to his followers that he and his mission on Earth are the very reason for the world's existence. The world was created with Jesus in mind and its primary purpose is to reveal the magnificence of God's grace.
The phrase “before the foundation of the earth” means that something happened or existed before God created the world and everything in it. It is often used in the Bible to describe God’s eternal plan and purpose, especially his choice and love for his people. For example, in Ephesians 1:4, Paul writes that God “chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him” 1. This means that God had already decided to save and sanctify those who believe in Jesus Christ, even before he made the universe. Similarly, in 1 Peter 1:20, Peter says that Christ “was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you” 2. This means that God had already planned to send his Son to die and rise for our sins, even before he created the world.
The phrase “before the foundation of the earth” also shows that God is not limited by time or space, but he is eternal and sovereign. He knows the end from the beginning, and he works all things according to his will. He is not surprised or frustrated by anything that happens in history, but he has a perfect and wise plan for his glory and our good. Therefore, we can trust and praise him for his grace and power, knowing that he loved us before the foundation of the world.
Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion.
He claimed that the Hebrews scriptures have been around for everyone to read. Not true.
In reference to the whole Bible:
- What about those living before the fourth century?
- And not yet available in every language currently.
- Bibles are not available everywhere in the world.
- And only readable by the literate.
/
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
You referenced post #439, which does not contain the statement you mention. @Behold did not claim that the Hebrew Scriptures have been accessible to everyone to read, although I would agree with him if he did. The scriptures exist for the purpose of being read, so as long as they have existed, people have had access to them and have read them.
(He was reacting to your initial post where you claim to know the difference between the Book and the Author, though I am doubtful you know either.)
It has become apparent that your posts are meant to raise doubt and provoke distrust in the Bible, rather than seeking information or initiating discussions. Your rhetorical questions seem to be hidden disagreements with the truth of the Gospel, as if your view of yourself, God, and mankind might be defeated by the Bible. For instance, asking "Do you really think that's a good idea?" implies that it isn't, and this is what you do.
It seems that you brought up the topic of Bibliolatry not to discuss its merits, but rather to imply that studying the Bible is not worthwhile. I'm not sure why a Christian would express doubts about studying the Bible, but I won't speculate here. Your post seems to suggest the question, "Can the Bible be trusted?" as if to imply that it cannot.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
If we are to decrease and Jesus increase, it means changing our perspective from a worldly timeline perspective and rationale for everything to the timeless perspective of God where all things are the same yesterday, today, and forever (as they "were" "before the foundation of the world").
If you haven't noticed many things that we would otherwise consider to be future or present tense in the scriptures are actually referred to in past tense. Such a use of language is a prelude (eluding to) the knowledge of "all truth" from God via the Holy Spirit and the "finish" of the mystery of God as He declared to His servants the prophets.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
I might add...that it is that very "knowing the beginning from the end" perspective that is the actual reality according to the way of God whom is perfect, and the end of which we are to arrive at in Oneness with Him in Christ. So...while, yes, He has planned for us to walk it out on this timeline of history, the completion of the story (His story) is already written, and our being last to know the whole story as reading a book after the fact "each in our own order" is not the actual measure of what is ultimately true. God is true, and thus also His perspective and reality regarding time or the lack thereof.
Is there anything wrong with considering the evidences of history in general? What is all truth? Because of the whole before the foundation of the world? Why would one need to consider history ever anyway?
@ScottA, do you believe God is able to allow himself to not know things until it happens but consider all the surrounding possibilities of what may come forth? Everyone constantly says God is all knowing. He may be all knowing in what to do when a situation happens, however that doesn't mean he has to allow himself to know, though he couldnt be surprised.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
DISCLAIMER: I consider this aspect of God to be relative to the OP, as it addresses the fulness of God (the Author of the Bible).
Certainly there is nothing wrong with considering or discussing any of the various aspects of God in all His fulness, and yet the context for one aspect may not be the context of another. Context then, may be correct by context, or false if out of context.
I referred to "all truth" which is what Jesus promised would come by the leading of the Holy Spirit whom He would send after going to the Father. Which is a reference to all the knowledge of God by our becoming One with Christ in God (as they are One).
History within the greater context of God, is as the words of a book revealed or made manifest, the revealing of everything that is hidden before the Judgement. Which Paul elaborated in speaking of the times of men as being "first to the Jew and then to the gentile" but then specified "but each one in his own order" ("each one" defined as each "individual" according to the original language).
As for God being "able to allow himself to not know things until it happens", this is not the case of God in general, but is indeed the case of "God with us" as "Christ." Jesus only knew what was revealed to Him by the Father during His time of being here in the form of a man, as He himself said referring to His return, “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Which is therefore also true of those who become His body, from which Paul was even correct to say, "For me, to live is Christ." In other words, there are many who believe that receiving the Holy Spirit means all who have received the Holy Spirit are equal in their knowledge of truth from God, which simply is not true, as even Jesus knew less than the Father, but being the Head knew more than other men, who did not appoint others equally, but appointed "some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers," etc..
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Ill just believe that God is capable of doing of his choosing. If i start to say I know God in the sense of his mind and ways, I would suggest that I would be completely wrong and out of context.
““For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares Yahava.”
Isaiah 55:8 NASB2020
Isaiah 55:8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.
bible.com
All I can do is just think, and suggest.
Consider when God said in the Garden to Adam,
“Where are you?”
Wouldnt God know where he was the whole time? Why would he ask this when it just seems that God is knowing all the time?
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Ill just believe that God is capable of doing of his choosing. If i start to say I know God in the sense of his mind and ways, I would suggest that I would be completely wrong and out of context.
““For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares Yahava.”
Isaiah 55:8 NASB2020
Isaiah 55:8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.bible.com
All I can do is just think, and suggest.
Consider when God said in the Garden to Adam,
“Where are you?”
Wouldnt God know where he was the whole time?
That indeed was a good first word on the matter. However, with the coming of Christ, us becoming His body beginning 2,000 years ago, and His declaring the end as being "you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."...I wouldn't suggest such a discount.
What are you talking about? People building up the spiritual body in abiding in Christ? I dont discount Jesus at all. I believe everyone dies “in their own order” and in a sense will have a encounter with the LORD GOD Almighty.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
I was referring to your quoting the passage above as a reason seemingly to justify having no expectation of our ways being more than they were in Isaiah's time during these end times, when in reality being One with Christ began 2,000 years ago.
What God has revealed he has made known, however to be able to dictate what Gods thoughts and ways are is implausible. Its either I take your word about that or not. That is the fine line, you can suggest anything, one has to investiagate by the spirit if it is true or not.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
You don't have to take my word for it. You can read it for yourself. The thief on the cross was One with Christ in God that very day.
But it would also seem that you do not actually know how this works. You need only believe.
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ScottA, I like you. Youre a very intelligent person. Your interpertation is just to far advanced for me to understand perhaps.
People come to revelations by and through, thinking, and asking questions and having those questions answered for themselves alone with God, by the spirit and use of the word; something just are up in the air and we have to be honest and say we dont know for sure.
With your comment on the theif on the cross, I agree. Some people dont though, for whatever reason, it was Jesus and the theif dying and going forward to Hell. Paradise and the prison part of sheol with the chasm was all there. Today that chasm has been filled by Jesus, people become part of the Kingdom through adoption, and can become mature sons and daughters in Christ.
But yes, its not good to just accept what anyone says as a stated truth, perhaps people in “their own order”, will die. Dying to the self, and dying and moving forward to the heavenly realm, and experience the “second coming” as they call it - however it will be a surpise to unbelievers probably, and they will be given a resurrected body.
I dont personally say I belong the to bride of Christ today, but I do personally see myself as a child of God, by faith. People are able to become co-heirs with Christ, and those are all wondeful and great truths founded in the bible.
If a person does see themselves as the bride of Christ that is fine, and if they dont its fine, revelations come by and through the Spirit with the bible, and the Lord will judge us all based on the life lived rightly and justly.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that and being transparent.
If I may suggest: Yes, it can be said that many sort of wander in the desert thinking whatever comes to mind and weighing in on all matters of God out of their own experiences and opinions, but the scriptures also paint a different way. Which is that we indeed come and go "each in his own order" both physically and spiritually (as they are two different births) wherein God unfolds His truth by revelations "here a little, there a little" which comes personally between the person and God, or by those appointed to reveal from one person to others...which includes both what is written and also direct spiritual encounters.
As for what is written, we are not to make our own interpretations. By the example of "tongues", one speaks (or reads) and if need be another interprets, either the Holy Spirit, or another by the Spirit.
I suppose the point is, the "to each their own" way approach, is not "seeking first the kingdom of God", but seeking ones own counsel first and then expecting God to make all things good from a position of second priority.
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Sure it is a pleasure to be open and direct.
That is a good way to put it, all people in the world have to make up their decisions, whether or not they believe God; however when it comes to people deciding on things about God; it's impossible to know his ways, or his thoughts, because he is God. However, over all they will be changed, in the blink of an eye, when they get that ah ha! Moment, and even without a bible in hand. Looking at the seasons and how they change, life, death, and resurrection are founded upon within the natural realm such as a tree, growing, shedding its leaves, then comes back. The creation which God has made, declares the glory of God, and while that may be so, the scriptures also tells people about the LORD, and what his decisions where, and even things which he had stated in and through the prophets of old, which all in the end of course lead to Christ. The Word that created all things, by the speaking of God himself.
Yes that is true. There is the new born again spiritually person who realizes that their is more to this life, that what it may seen. That being God, and that he is the creator of all by his spoken Word. That is why people are ambassadors for Christ, and share the word with others who want to listen. However, that individual must of course choose for themselves, what they will decide, be it having faith in hope that God is there for them, or remain faithless. There are different measures of faith when it comes to people, it's just as much as people who continue to believe that Jesus is coming back, that is totally fine if they believe that, or that people are still going to hell, or that God initially, annihilates people in the end. The love which they express by following after the Creator, and having love for Him, and love for others, is measured by all the many factors of one humans life, and the decisions they choose to make, in loving God, and loving others, and all people will be judged rightly and given their spiritual body by God at the end of this life. There are people who are building up spiritual treasures already, while others may start later, when they finally have that ah ha! moment.
Sure, this reminds me of Jesus when he said "Let the dead bury their own dead" that would suggest there are people who remain spiritually dead, and have yet to becoming born again and build up faith to whatever measure and however close they decide to get to God. Some being close, some being far away, and some people who do not desire to get close to God at all, until they decide for themselves that perhaps just maybe there is an God that exist, because it's all predicated on faith that God indeed created the world, and the bible has to be taken in as a whole in order to get a fully picture and scope of what all that is going on in it with the nation of Israel, to God, to Jesus, to the destruction, return, and that of course is a choice on an individual to go and learn those things, or stay put wherever they may be in their life, be it accepting God, or rejecting Yahava, the God of Israel.
Some of your writings really just confuse me, to some degree or another. Perhaps others are able to comprehend what you may share with them. Some may have a problem with what you may be sharing, such as myself and that is why I continue to comment on some of your sharing cause it just doesn't make any sense (but that my be because of my own understanding of what I have come to know and learn not that there is not any more learning to be done.
Everyone has to come to their own decision God, regardless of what another person says, or shares from the bible, as proclaimed truth. They must in their heart, have that faith which God is pleased with, and allow God to be in their life, and allow him to work in and through them if they so desire to do the will of God. I believe that when it comes down to it, ScottA, the spirit is primary, and the bible is secondary and referential because while many may have conflicting views based on the decision to decide whether or not say, Hell is done away with, or that Jesus is coming back to get them, in the end everyone is going to die and meet him, in my opinion. And this is why the spirit is primary and the most important because it is from Yahava, because of Yeshua, and that a person is able to have newness of life, and also a change of heart from the former way that they had decide to be against God, and against their own fellow man.
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