What is "OSAS"?

[Marymog]

, you have your dead mens words.

Lol....So we should adhere only to the words of men who are alive????????????

 

[Marymog]

I realize you're speaking to Taken, here, Mary, but, well, I'm sorry to hear that...

Grace and peace to you.

Lol...I was. I am not sure how that got pasted into our conversation.

Mary

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Jesus was baptized of John bc John was the forerunner of the Christ
Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becomes us to fulfill all righteousness.


John the Baptist was fulfilling the ministry the Father had called him to do in preaching repentance.
Preparing men's heart of the need of turning away from sin unto God. Jesus established John's ministry by his own baptism.

Three years, Jesus stood toe to toe against those whom had corrupted the Laws of God for their own glory and personal gain. Many denominations and preachers do the same today. Telling ppl things that are out of sync with God's word, corrupting salvation, not as a gift of God but a ritual & doctrine of men.

There will come a time in these last days where eyes will be opened to the hypocrisy of their leaders. When there will be no trust to be had in a corporation or affiliate, for they will be serving their own up to the devil on a silver platter !

 

[rwb]

Yep equally adverse one to the other, not news. And that adverse standing is expressly Because I am Sanctified IN Him according to Gods Word and you, well, as you have repeatedly revealed, you have your dead mens words.

Equally adverse IS Enemies…Why that makes you giddy reveals much about your character.

Do you think perhaps this person is a troll?

 

[Marymog]

Did Jesus or the Spirit tell you that Taken had/has a tickling in the tummy? :) Wow?


Grace and peace to you.

Nope, the Holy Spirit didn't tell me that. I have made it VERY clear that the Holy Spirit does not reveal any new Truths from Scripture to me personally. Scripture makes that clear also.

I have no tickling in my tummy....Only those that THINK John 14:26 applies to them personally have that false tickling and twist Scripture to their own destruction.

 

[Marymog]

You repeatedly are pointing to, saying, revealing your WAY is according to dead men who called themselves Catholic.

You keep repeating what your dead Protestant men tell you.....How are we different?

 

[Rockerduck]

Yes, I am saying that because Scripture does not say that a person who is baptized in water (born again) has direct contact with God via the Holy Spirit.

If it is in Scripture, please give me that passage.

John 16:13 - However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears (from Me) He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

Here is a conversation between Jesus and Ananias. by the way, I've had conversations with Jesus too.

Acts 9:10-16 -
Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.”

And he said, “Here I am, Lord.”

11 So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. 12 And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.”

13 Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much [b]harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.”

15 But
, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children[c] of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”

 

[Marymog]

John 16:13 - However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears (from Me) He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

Hey Rockerduck,

Thanks for joining the conversation and your interpretation of that passage. How about we put that passage in context:

16 “All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. 2 They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. 3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4 I have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them. I did not tell you this from the beginning because I was with you, 5 but now I am going to him who sent me. None of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 Rather, you are filled with grief because I have said these things. 7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Can you now see how that passage you provided as your proof text to support your theory is in PRESENT tense....NOT future tense? That is unless you think that YOU will be put in the synagogue? Or that Jesus told you those things from the beginning when He was with YOU?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

Here is a conversation between Jesus and Ananias. by the way, I've had conversations with Jesus too.

Really? And what did He say to you?

 

[Marymog]

Yep equally adverse one to the other, not news. And that adverse standing is expressly Because I am Sanctified IN Him according to Gods Word and you, well, as you have repeatedly revealed, you have your dead mens words.

Equally adverse IS Enemies…Why that makes you giddy reveals much about your character.

OHHHHHHH NO......Marymog is not sanctified in Him..........Taken said it so it MUST BE TRUE!

 

[Marymog]

Do you think perhaps this person is a troll?

Are you speaking of me RWB? If so, I would like to address that......

It has been alleged on this thread that The Holy Spirit speaks through YOU. Does the Holy Spirit speak through YOU rwb?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

thats ok, It is found in the word.

Then give the passage.....

 

[Ritajanice]

Hey Ritajanice.....

To be indoctrinated one has to be taught or learn by hearing or reading the subject they are being indoctrinated into. And it is true that most Christians have been 'indoctrinated' by religious leaders. The Apostles were religious leaders who indoctrinated many.


I suspect when you say 'indoctrinated' that you mean brainwashed? I can tell you who indoctrinated me....... Who indoctrinated you? Or are you self-taught?

Curious Mary

The Holy Spirit is my teacher..

 

[Ritajanice]

Yes, I am saying that because Scripture does not say that a person who is baptized in water (born again) has direct contact with God via the Holy Spirit.

If it is in Scripture, please give me that passage.

Oh but it does, we are Born Again of the Holy Spirit, that is biblical,

Only a Born Again can see the Kingdom of God, thats scripture.

You must be Born of water and the Spirit.

Water is the human birth.

Born of God is the birth from our Father via the Holy Spirit.

Baptised in water..is the declaration, which we do in obedience and is symbolic....to the New birth...we have gone from the old life, into the new life..

That new spirit filled life is in Christ and as his word says.

◄ Romans 8 ►

Berean Standard Bible Par ▾ Walking by the Spirit (Ezekiel 36:16–38; Galatians 5:16–26) 1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.a2For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set youb free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.c He thus condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace,7because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the fleshd cannot please God. 9You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alivee because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the deadf will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you. Heirs with Christ 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him. Future Glory (2 Corinthians 5:1–10) 18I consider that our present sufferings are not comparable to the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. 23Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently. 26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words. 27And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. God Works in All Things (Ephesians 1:3–14) 28And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. 29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. 31What then shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us. More than Conquerors (Psalm 44:1–26) 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written: “For Your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”g 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[PinSeeker]

Would you agree that He did it as an example that we were to follow?

Sure. There's more (much more, really) to it than that, but sure.

And if we follow His example (get water baptized) the Holy Spirit would descend upon us?

The crux of the difference between us, really, Mary, is what water baptism is. You may agree with what I said before, that water baptism is a sacrament, but by definition, water baptism, since it is a sacrament, is not therefore salvific. No act of man does or can save another.

In the New Testament, baptism becomes the outward sign of the new covenant people of God, replacing circumcision as such. Jesus commands His followers to make disciples of all nations and peoples and to mark them out with water baptism (Matthew 28:18-20). in Acts 2, Peter instructs would-be followers of Christ to “repent and be baptized” (v. 38). The point is that beginning with the end of Christ’s earthly ministry, all who turn to Jesus in faith are to be marked out with the sign of baptism: it is something that everyone who puts his faith in Christ must now do. Baptism took on added significance in the ministry of the Apostles and the early church. It was and still is still an outward rite of washing or cleansing with water, just as it was in the Old Testament, but it is now specifically commanded by the Lord to be administered to every disciple as an outward sign of God’s covenant with them. Baptism functions in the same way that circumcision did, namely, as a sign and seal of the righteousness that is ours by faith. Circumcision did not earn Abraham his acceptance with God. It simply marked him out as one who was in right standing with God already. It was a visible pointer to an inward spiritual reality that belonged to Abraham by faith. So too was baptism for Christians in the first century and for us now: it is an outward sign that points to an inward spiritual reality and marks us out as belonging to the Lord. It is a confirmation that everything Jesus accomplished on the cross is ours by faith in Him. One more time... :)... Baptism is a rite of washing or cleansing in water that is commanded by the Lord Jesus Himself ~ and yes, after His own example ~ to be a sign and seal of the inward washing of all our sins and thus of being counted righteous in God’s sight ~ which only God can do; only God can remove our sin from us ~ and is through faith in Jesus Christ ~ which itself is God's gift.

...Matthew 19:26 has NOTHING to do with baptism or what we are debating.

Well, it does.

...you allege that 'both Johns' say "that water baptism itself is not effectual in making one eligible or conferring salvation upon the one receiving it." Would you share those passages with me that say that? I can't find them!!

LOL! They do so in effect; in John 1, John the Apostle quotes John the Baptist as saying:

"I baptize with water, but among you stands One you do not know, even He who comes after me, the strap of Whose sandal I am not worthy to untie.”

And then the next day, John the Baptist, upon seeing Jesus, says:

“Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! This is He of Whom I said, ‘After me comes a man Who ranks before me, because He was before me.’ I myself did not know Him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that He might be revealed to Israel.”

And then:

“I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on Him. I myself did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on Whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.”

So we can see from this that water baptism, even that given by John the Baptist himself, is a very different thing than being baptized by Jesus with the Holy Spirit. And that will take us back up to what I said above concerning water baptism...

According to the men who taught you, water baptism is not salvific.

LOL! Salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9, Psalm 3:8, 62:1), Mary. The central truth of God's saving grace is succinctly stated in the assertion, “Salvation is of the Lord.” This strong declaration means that every aspect of man's salvation is from God and is entirely dependent upon God. The only contribution that we make is the sin that was laid upon Jesus Christ at the cross.

According to the Apostle Peter and Paul, it was: 1 Peter 3:21, Titus 3:5

Peter is comparing salvation in the ark and baptism. In both instances, believers are carried through the waters of judgment, not the act of conferring salvation upon someone. The mere mechanical act of baptism does not save, for Peter explicitly says, "not as a removal of dirt from the body," meaning that the passing of water over the body does not cleanse anyone. It is, as I said, an outward sign of an inward reality, as I said above. Paul is reiterating, in slightly different words, what he says in Ephesians 2 and his other letters, that God saved us, not because of works but by the washing and renewal of the Holy Spirit, which cannot happen just by our water baptism, even as Peter says.

You have a choice of adhering to the writings of the men from the 16th century OR you can adhere to the writings of Paul, Peter...

I say both. Primarily the latter, of course, but the Reformers taught what they taught. So, yes, both.

That is ONE of the things we must do to be saved.

No, evangelism is one of the things we are to do in view of the salvation we have received.

But your men failed to teach you that so I will...

Yeah no. :) I mean, you quoted Scripture, so that's all well and good. But how you are using it is the issue...

No, the Holy Spirit does NOT remind US, 2,000 years later, of all that Jesus said.

Strongly disagree.

The APOSTLES were told that the Holy Spirit would remind THEM of all that Jesus said.

Well, at the time they were disciples of Jesus, and now we are, too, having been made such by God's calling and being born again of the Spirit.

The twisting of that passage (John 14:26) started in the 16th century...

<eyeroll>

Only those that THINK John 14:26 applies to them personally have that false tickling and twist Scripture to their own destruction.

Didn't you... say that about... yourself, Mary...? Maybe I'm recalling incorrectly, but I think you said, actually, that John 14:26 applies to you but not to Taken...

There will be the greatest confusion. Nobody will allow himself to be led by another man’s doctrine or authority. Everybody will be his own rabbi; hence the greatest scandals. There are as many sects and beliefs as there are heads. This fellow will have nothing to do with baptism; another denies the Sacrament; a third believes that there is another world between this and the Last Day. Some teach that Christ is not God; some say this, some say that. There is no rustic so rude but that, if he dreams or fancies anything, it must be the whisper of the Holy Spirit, and he himself a prophet. How many doctors have I made through preaching and writing! Now they say, “Be off with you! Go off with you! Go to the devil!” Thus it must be. When we preach they laugh …. When we get angry and threaten them, they mock us, snap their fingers at us and laugh in their sleeves. Since the downfall of Popery and the cessation of excommunications and spiritual penalties, the people have learned to despise the word of God. They no longer care for churches; they have ceased to fear and honor God … After throwing off the yoke of the Pope, everyone wishes to live as he pleases...Martin Luther.

"Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen." (final statement of Martin Luther at the Diet of Worms in 1521).

Grace and peace to you, Mary.

 

[Taken]

Lol....So we should adhere only to the words of men who are alive????????????

We? Ha, you don’t speak FOR me.
That would be “YOU” not “we”, who said that.

The “We” I am brothers with, Listen to the TRUTH, and KNOW their TRUTH is JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (The multiple and unnecessary punctuation marks for your benefit of common elementary understanding).

 

[Marymog]

Sure. There's more (much more, really) to it than that, but sure.


The crux of the difference between us, really, Mary, is what water baptism is. You may agree with what I said before, that water baptism is a sacrament, but by definition, water baptism, since it is a sacrament, is not therefore salvific. No act of man does or can save another.



Grace and peace to you, Mary.

Great. We agree that we must follow His example and get water baptized. Pretty simple and really NO MORE than that. We must follow His example if we are to be like Him.

Yes, we agree water baptism is a sacrament. A sacrement is a Christian rite that has been ordained by Christ

According to Scripture it IS salvific: 1 Peter 3:21.

When we do what He tells us to do OR what we do what the Apostles tell us to do, it also saves us. If we don't do what they told us to do, we will not be saved.

When we follow His example, we are also saved. If we don't follow His example, we will not be saved.

So your opinion that baptism doesn't save is false on all three fronts with the highest evidence of your false teaching being 1 Peter 3:21 in which it says "baptism now saves you".

Where you are going wrong is that your men taught you that an act of man does not save another man. One can NOT baptize themselves; it takes the act of another man to do that. The sacrament of anointing of the sick is in the bible. Scripture says to call an elder to convey that sacrament. You cannot self-anoint with oil.

Mary

 

[Taken]

Jesus was baptized of John bc John was the forerunner of the Christ
Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becomes us to fulfill all righteousness.


John the Baptist was fulfilling the ministry the Father had called him to do in preaching repentance.
Preparing men's heart of the need of turning away from sin unto God. Jesus established John's ministry by his own baptism.

Three years, Jesus stood toe to toe against those whom had corrupted the Laws of God for their own glory and personal gain. Many denominations and preachers do the same today. Telling ppl things that are out of sync with God's word, corrupting salvation, not as a gift of God but a ritual & doctrine of men.

There will come a time in these last days where eyes will be opened to the hypocrisy of their leaders. When there will be no trust to be had in a corporation or affiliate, for they will be serving their own up to the devil on a silver platter !

Yes. John’s Baptism was for transgression of sins….AND to introduce Jesus, without sin, without need of forgiveness;
…. IS: the Son of God….
just as Mary was told the Son of man would be called the Son of God.

 

[Marymog]

In the New Testament, baptism.....

Grace and peace to you, Mary.

In the New Testement baptism now saves you by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost!

 

[Marymog]

"Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen." (final statement of Martin Luther at the Diet of Worms in 1521).

Grace and peace to you, Mary.

And now you can see how confused Martin Luther was. He alleges that The Church contradicts itself, but HIS conscience is captive to the word of God! But the men of The Church conscience weren't captive to the word of God. He goes on to say that he won't recant anything that he taught to himself. But as I showed you in his other statements, he did not like how everyone else was contradicting HIM.

You and Martin Luther crack me up.....