Well Judas was an habitual thief during his time as one of Christ's disciples. I imagine you would have to be antinomian to believe he was in a saved state during that time. And I'm sure devils are not in saved states(John6:70)
Oddly OSAS
- Thread starter GracePeace
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Could I ask you to read the thread? Many users ask me to clarify, and imagine if I kept having to clarify over and over instead of them reading my clarifications.
He was thinking Judas had the Spirit, to try to use him as a case of how believers fall way today, and I was showing why that was not the case.
It means I had thought that I was NOSAS based on all the doctrines teaching that believers could fall away--and that gave me trouble, prevented me from believing I was foreknown and predestined, couldn't be lost by Christ, etc--but, with recognizing God forgets righteousness (Ez 18:24), I reocgnize I'm actually oddly OSAS, and can affirm both people can fall away, and that if we are saved we will continue with the believers (1 Jn 2).
"Oddly OSAS" means I had thought that I was NOSAS based on all the doctrines teaching that believers could fall away--and that gave me trouble, prevented me from believing I was foreknown and predestined, couldn't be lost by Christ, etc--but, with recognizing God forgets righteousness (Ez 18:24), I recognize I'm actually "Oddly OSAS", and can affirm both that people can fall away, and that if we are saved we will continue with the believers (1 Jn 2).
Taken
Well-Known Member
Thank you. For your perspective…
Disagree…”both” can fall away.
WHY can they NOT?
A “simple BELIEVER”….is a basically a “BEGINNER”, learning ABOUT God….
Using the disciples as an EXAMPLE…
Jesus says…follow me…
Oh….okay…
Jesus teaching this….okay, believe this
Jesus teaching that….um, could be, IDK
They with Jesus…He teaching this…OK agree
They distance from Jesus…they have claimed to believe, they claimed to doubt, they claimed to deny. WHOOPS…
See the conflict?
To Jesus’ face…yes believe.
Behind His back…to men they doubt /deny.
Other men can DO the same thing.
And Other men DO, DO the same thing.
* Point being…men are using their OWN POWER, to shift back and forth, AS the situation is Convenient for them.
What God “OFFERED”….was an “ORDER and WAY”…for a man, to RECEIVE:
* “Gods Power (Christ) to BE WITH-IN a believing man…
THAT….no matter WHERE the man IS….and no matter WHAT (another man, an evil spirit, a wondering question about Gods teaching)….
THAT….BECAUSE OF GODS POWER “IN” that man….
* THAT man could NEVER AGAIN….doubt or deny the Lord God…(in any shape or form to Himself or any other)
Such a man…WHILE still alive in his body…will have Gods POWER (IN him, WITH him) 24 -7 for the rest of his Physical Life)….
AND….?? WHAT Power is greater than Gods?
NADA.
Nothing what so ever can CAUSE that man to doubt or deny the Lord God.
Which IS….OSAS.
What about the man, who believes, YET, has NOT the Power of God (IN) him?
Is his own “Power” greater than “Satan’s”?
No.
Is his own “Power” greater than “Authorities, Governments, Military, Brut Mussel men, Gangs, Employers, Teachers, Threats, Fears, etc.”?
No.
A Believing man, CAN easily, YEILD to what threatens him out of FEAR of negative consequences BECAUSE of the Power an other….Satan, Governments, Military, etc….
Has, which is “greater than his own Power.
* Point…
A believing man must rely on his OWN POWER to KEEP his BELIEF, regardless of WHO or WHAT he is confronted with.
* Point…
A CONFESSED CONVERTED believing man HAS the POWER of God “IN” him…that no matter what or who…threatens him, demands of him…The Lord God will ALWAYS BE WITH him…maintaining that man’s STRENGTH to Stand with God, be Comforted by God, through ANY situation.
This man … IS Saved.
** Point…
An “NON-CONVERTED” believing man…MAY very well…under any circumstances CONTINUE Believing, never deny…
(Called enduring to the end)….
AND WHAT….at the end of His Physical Life’s DEATH?
**** At the moment of that mans physical Death…The Lord God Searches His Heart…
FOR that mans “TRUE BELIEF”….
AND IF FOUND, to truly Believe…
**** THEN WHAT?
**** THEN…he SHALL Be sAVeD!
Difference….
IS Saved….VS….SHALL be Saved.
IS Saved…is the comfort of HAS Salvation.
Shall be Saved…is the HOPE to HAVE Salvation.
Has Salvation….IS assured.
HOPE to HAVE Salvation….IS an unsure risk.
In either case…
** Salvation NOW, before physical death (ie crucified with Jesus)
** Salvation AFTER physical death…
BOTH are SAVED ONLY ONCE and FOREVER.
Ie OSAS.
Believers…(not converted)…
** ARE “TASTERS”.
Believers … (who ARE Converted)
** ARE “EATERS”.
Taster’s can SPIT OUT what they have taken a bite of.
Eater’s have Committed to put and keep In themselves.
Meaning when a man TAKES the WORD of God into his mouth…by his own power, the man can spit it out, deny, reject it.
^^BELIEVER^^ (hope) for OSAS
Meaning when a man TAKES the WORD of God into his mouth….by his own power, EATS that WORD, he can no longer deny, reject, spit it out.
^^CONVERTED BELIEVER^^ (assured) OSAS
A Christian…okay…ie a FOLLOWER…free to walk away.
A Converted Christian..okay ie a Born Again forever Believer….can NEVER walk away.
See the “difference” ?
Gods ORDER and WAY….of WHAT Applies to….who, what, when, why, where….
Sanctification IS Gods works IN a man Committed to Him..
10 times Scripture reveals Living men WHO ARE Sanctified…”saved once and forever”.
29 times Scripture reveals Living men WHO SHALL be Sanctified…….”IF”…….(a caveat)…
And the Caveat IS ALWAYS….what they believe IN their Heart, on the day they Physically Bodily Die.
This is just a brief overview…of a bigger more indepth picture.
God bless you.
Glory to God,
Taken
Thanks.
To attack a position, I train myself on the claims and bases of the claims.
I say that God forgetting righteousness is the only way to make sense of the Biblical data, the only way to hold both that people can fall away, and yet no believer can lose salvation.
When seeking to disprove the argument, you must focus on the claim and its bases. Describe why it lacks soundness, is unreliable, and oughtn't be trusted.
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Taken
Well-Known Member
Until you understand the difference between A believer…
AND
A CONVERTED believer
you will NOT understand the big picture.
Glory to God,
Taken
Question : Do you believe God still forgets righteousness as He has before?
If not, why would you believe He still forgets sin (Ez 18:24; Jer 31:34)?
If not, how is He "the same yesterday, today, and forever?"
If so, how does that factor in to your conceptions--what does it look like?
Taken
Well-Known Member
I do not know what you are talking about.
Heb 8:
[12] For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
If one is forgiven…done deal…no more thought of remembrance of it.
God is not Forgiveness…Forgiveness is a attribute of what God can do…Forgiving, having mercy does not Change WHO He IS.
Gods WORD, Gods Power, Gods Spirit NEVER CHANGES…He IS who He IS without beginning, without ending.
Think I have answered you. ??
Glory to God,
Taken
Apparently.
God has revealed He forgets not only sin, but righteousness (Ez 18:24).
Right, Jeremiah 31:34.
Not necessarily (Mt 18:21-35), but we'll focus on my current questions.
Was "God is forgiveness" my claim?
No, I asked, "If you believe God still forgets sins, as He had done in the past, on what ground would you deny (another action God revealed He takes) He still forgets righteousness--and if you don't deny He still forgets righteousness (because He doesn't change, but is "the same yesterday, today, and forever"), what form does that take in your conception of Christianity? What does it look like when He forgets righteousness today?"
Right, so why would anyone deny that still He forgets righteousness? Do you deny it?
In part, yes. Thank you.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Obvious, since I just said so.
EZ 18:
[24] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Still do not know what you are talking about….there is no mention of “God forgetting righteousness”…..Rather…
A man who turns from righteousness, no more is there a consideration or mention of righteousness…not the same as forgetting.
Convoluted question…
He doesn’t CHANGE…
How He responds to Individuals IS dependent on the Behavior of the individual, the same when two individuals behave the same.
Don’t find that teaching.
Glory to God,
Taken
Ezekiel 18
21“But if the wicked person turns from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall certainly live; he shall not die. 22All his offenses which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. 23Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “[k]rather than that he would turn from his ways and live?
24“But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness, commits injustice and does according to all the abominations that the wicked person does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
The Hebrew word means "remember".
In my question, that "He doesn't change" doesn't concern His Judicial "impartiality", but that His character--based upon which, He revealed, He forgets not only sin but also righteousness--doesn't change.
OK You do deny that God forgets righteousness.
Now that you know the Hebrew word in Ezekiel 18 means "remember", would you affirm God forgets not only sin but also righteousness?
Amen
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Taken
Well-Known Member
Remember…is to take into account…
A Forgiven man…God does not remember the mans sin.
The mans righteousness is remembered AND rewarded.
An Unforgiven man…is already doomed…Shall the Lord award this man for righteousness? How so was that man righteous? As I said…not considered, or otherwise “accounted” is my view.
Glory to God,
Taken
Anyway, as I've said, for me, the only way to make sense of all the data is to take this other piece of the puzzle (ie, God forgets not only sin but righteousness) into account.
Thanks!
Taken
Well-Known Member
@GodsGrace
ARE saved.
SHALL be saved.
SHALL be damned.
With or Without.
1 Cor 1: (the Converted are save by Gods Power CHRIST IN them.)
[18] For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Matt 10: (a believer until their last breath shall be saved)
[22] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Matt 12: (without IS Against the Lord God)
[30] He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Mark 16: (believe AND Baptized…saved. Believe NOT shall be damned.)
[16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Glory to God,
Taken
ARE saved.
SHALL be saved.
SHALL be damned.
With or Without.
1 Cor 1: (the Converted are save by Gods Power CHRIST IN them.)
[18] For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Matt 10: (a believer until their last breath shall be saved)
[22] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Matt 12: (without IS Against the Lord God)
[30] He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Mark 16: (believe AND Baptized…saved. Believe NOT shall be damned.)
[16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Glory to God,
Taken
Can't remember why I posted what you're responding to,
but I agree with what you've stated.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Actually my last post was in conjunction to my comments about Understanding the differences between;
Those who ARE SAVED…called Converted.
Those who SHALL BE SAVED…if they believe and continue believing to the day of their death.
Those who SHALL NOT Be SAVED, and their consequence of damnation.
It’s a revealing of God’s ORDER and WAY, which I often mention.
Glory to God,
Taken
Yes...I still agree.
Although I don't quite get the nuance of SAVED and CONVERTED.
I believe that we become saved....
and the conversion could be immediate or it could take some time.
But the person, if being honest about following Jesus, will still be saved even if the conversion takes some time.
But now we'd have to define CONVERSION.
To my understanding it means changing from one thing to another thing..