What is "OSAS"?

[PinSeeker]

Ok Pinseeker....You say I am wrong in my logical conclusion but have yet to explain WHY I am wrong, and WHY you said that.

You keep telling me I am wrong but have yet to explain WHY I am wrong or give evidence why I am wrong. I have given evidence why I think you said that......you have yet to refute that evidence. You just keep telling me I am wrong.....GOOD GRIEF indeed!!

As best I can remember, Mary, you came to this "logical conclusion" based on something that I had said. You acknowledged something I had said, and then said "well that means..." Here you go:

Marymog: "You said each of them (the reformers) made great contributions to bringing Christians back to the teaching of the Apostles. That means that they, the Reformers, threw out some Church teachings AND came up with their own teachings/doctrines that brought Christianity back to the original teachings of which you think The Church veered from."

If you disagree that the Reformers made great contributions to Christianity both then and ongoing to today (which, obviously, you do), well, fine, I respect your position. But from your statement here, all that's really incumbent on me (or not, if I so choose) is to agree or disagree with what you think this "logical conclusion" based on what I had said before is. :) Having said that...

You know, in a certain sense, I agree. Probably not exactly in the sense you are making it out to be ~ or at least seem to be. specifically with regard to the "came up with their own teachings/doctrines" thing... a brief note* on that below ~ but yes, in some sense, I agree. Happy? :)

*Note: As I said, the chief purpose(s) of the Reformation is(are) summed up in the five Solas, one of which is Sola Scriptura, which means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture, that everything necessary, everything binding on our consciences, and everything God requires of us is given to us in Scripture, acknowledging that we are forbidden to add to or take away from Scripture, that Scripture is therefore the perfect and only standard of spiritual truth, revealing infallibly all that we must believe in order to be saved and all that we must do in order to glorify God. I would think/hope that even Catholics would agree with that. :)

Also, as I have said, this is not really a big deal, so don't make one out of it... :)... but I don't really like the your wording that they "brought Christianity back to the original teachings..." I mean, The Bible always was what it was and is, which surely you agree with. So Christianity itself didn't need to be "brought back" from anything; it always was what it was... and still is. And always will be. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ezra]

but you are the one who doesn't even realize that John 14:26 doesn't even apply to YOU.

amazing honestly your boat dont float any one who would claim this does not have both oars in the water. your theology is strange fire

you came to this "logical conclusion"

your going to confuse her

 

[BreadOfLife]

Some I found that believe OSAS.• Reformed Christianity.
Plymouth Brethren.
Free grace theology.
Molinism.
Hyper-Grace.
Catholicism.
Orthodoxy.
Lutheranism.

This is patently FALSE.
This fallacy is NOT taught in either the Catholic or Orthodox Churches.

 

[BreadOfLife]

*Note: As I said, the chief purpose(s) of the Reformation is(are) summed up in the five Solas, one of which is Sola Scriptura, which means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture, that everything necessary, everything binding on our consciences, and everything God requires of us is given to us in Scripture, acknowledging that we are forbidden to add to or take away from Scripture, that Scripture is therefore the perfect and only standard of spiritual truth, revealing infallibly all that we must believe in order to be saved and all that we must do in order to glorify God. I would think/hope that even Catholics would agree with that. :)\

I find it truly sad that so many of our separated Protestant brethren are so easily duped by such an obviously false and man-made invention.

It is false because it is a self-defeating doctrine.
If the Bible is our SOLE authority – WHY isn’t Sola Scriptura even taught in Scripture?

And speaking of the “Solas” - don’t get me started on Sola Fide, another non-Biblical Protestant invention.

The ONLY place where “Faith alone” is even mentioned in the Bible is in James 2:24 where it clearly states:
"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This is patently FALSE.
This fallacy is NOT taught in either the Catholic or Orthodox Churches.

thats ok, It is found in the word.

 

[PinSeeker]

I find it truly sad that so many of our separated Protestant brethren are so easily duped by such an obviously false and man-made invention.

Fair enough, but, Protestant or Catholic (or any other -ant or -ic... or -ist or -ian or -ite... :)), I find it astounding, really, and yes, sad, that so many Christians think along the lines you are thinking here.

The ONLY place where “Faith alone” is even mentioned in the Bible is in James 2:24 where it clearly states:
"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

And this is puzzling for a slightly different reason, but the result is still the same. What James says is absolutely true, of course...

Note: especially in view of the concept of Sola Scriptura... :)... and Biblically, as Jesus Himself says, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God" (Jesus quoting from Deuteronomy 8:3, Matthew 4:4)​

...but our good works, works that God honors and are glorifying to Him rather than condemned as self-serving, are the product of and thus directly follow our having received this God-given, salvific faith. In other words ~ as James is crystal clear in saying ~ if one does these good works but does not have this God-given, salvific faith but rather a "faith" that is dead, then the works are worthless in God's eyes.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Marymog]

amazing honestly your boat dont float any one who would claim this does not have both oars in the water. your theology is strange fire

Lol...Ok Ezra....Thank you.

 

[Marymog]

As best I can remember, Mary, you came to this "logical conclusion" based on something that I had said. You acknowledged something I had said, and then said "well that means..." Here you go:

Marymog: "You said each of them (the reformers) made great contributions to bringing Christians back to the teaching of the Apostles. That means that they, the Reformers, threw out some Church teachings AND came up with their own teachings/doctrines that brought Christianity back to the original teachings of which you think The Church veered from."

If you disagree that the Reformers made great contributions to Christianity both then and ongoing to today (which, obviously, you do), well, fine, I respect your position. But from your statement here, all that's really incumbent on me (or not, if I so choose) is to agree or disagree with what you think this "logical conclusion" based on what I had said before is. :) Having said that...

You know, in a certain sense, I agree. Probably not exactly in the sense you are making it out to be ~ or at least seem to be. specifically with regard to the "came up with their own teachings/doctrines" thing... a brief note* on that below ~ but yes, in some sense, I agree. Happy? :)

*Note: As I said, the chief purpose(s) of the Reformation is(are) summed up in the five Solas, one of which is Sola Scriptura, which means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture, that everything necessary, everything binding on our consciences, and everything God requires of us is given to us in Scripture, acknowledging that we are forbidden to add to or take away from Scripture, that Scripture is therefore the perfect and only standard of spiritual truth, revealing infallibly all that we must believe in order to be saved and all that we must do in order to glorify God. I would think/hope that even Catholics would agree with that. :)

Also, as I have said, this is not really a big deal, so don't make one out of it... :)... but I don't really like the your wording that they "brought Christianity back to the original teachings..." I mean, The Bible always was what it was and is, which surely you agree with. So Christianity itself didn't need to be "brought back" from anything; it always was what it was... and still is. And always will be. :)

Grace and peace to you.

Thank you Pinseeker,

You have articulated your position well and I appreciate that. I feel like I can have a conversation with you unlike some on here.

I kind of owe you an apology because I didn't repeat your words; I interjected my own words/conclusion based on what I thought you meant.

The reason I used the words "brought Christianity back to the original teachings" when summarizing your post (#223) is because in that post you said "bring back correct understanding and belief in God's holy, incorruptible, infallible, true Word." I do not believe my 'conclusion' or re-wording of your statement is too far off base BUT I should have quoted you word for word instead of summarizing. I apologize for doing that.

With that said, I agree with you that 'the overarching purpose of the Reformers was to re-form'. There is no doubt that The Church needed some reforming due to the corruption of some of its leaders and some of its policies (for a lack of better words). However, my general stance and what I have been trying to articulate on this still stands; The Reformers attempt to "bring back correct understanding and belief in God's holy, incorruptible, infallible, true Word' was a complete and utter failure. Their attempts at reform divided Christianity and created MULTIPLE denominations with "infallible" doctrines based on what they each individually believed to be the "true Word" according to their own interpretation of Scripture. Before the Reformation (revolution) most of Christianity was united under One Church with One doctrine and One truth which was, for the first 1,500 years of Christianity, a fulfilment of Jesus prayer (John 17:20-23). After the Reformation we were divided. Only Satan wants Christianity divided.....and the Reformers gave that victory to him!!

Grace and peace to you also!!

Sincerely, Mary

 

[Marymog]

Dear Mary, if you are truly born again of the Spirit of Christ in you, ............

Hey RWB.........I was water baptized so I am "truly born again of the Spirit".

 

[Marymog]

No one has solicited or requires your juvenile assessment.

Anyone with an ounce of functional gray matter should know,

Love the condescending, belittling tone from a staff member of this website. ANOTHER bad encounter from a member of the 'encounter team'.

 

[Marymog]

Really...only water?

Show me in scripture, where God says.....you only need to be baptised in water, to see the Kingdom of God?

Hey Ritajanice,

You asked a specific question about a specific passage from Scripture (John 3:1-21). I answered your question.

I have NEVER said and was not saying in that post that Scripture says that being baptized in water is the ONLY thing we have to do to see the Kingdom of God. I was simply answering your SPECIFIC question based on a SPECIFIC passage that YOU referenced.

Respectfully, Mary

 

[Taken]

Love the condescending, belittling tone from a staff member of this website. ANOTHER bad encounter from a member of the 'encounter team'.

The encounter team is a welcoming door, not a door mat.

When you resort to deflecting from engaging in a Spiritual conversation to child’s play of accusing others are in agreement from their “tummy’s thoughts”, you reveal your child’s play.

If one speaks as a child, understands as a child, they should have an expectation to receive a response a child can understand.

 

[Marymog]

Mary, IF I had said ALL of those things…word for word you could have quoted me instead of gaslighting, pretending an adversary is qualified to SPEAK FOR their adversary.

The ONLY thing in all of your words that correctly repeats WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID…is I ask God for His understanding.
And BTW, I will ADD, I TRUST what God reveals to me….
And care NONE if that is okay with you.

WHO do YOU ask FOR Gods Understanding OF His OWN words…….

Anyone or Everyone EXCEPT GOD??

Hey taken,

Short answer: God does not reveal any new understanding OR Truths (interpretations of Scripture) to me! Some men believe He has to them. That concerns me. The Church is clear on its 'understanding of His own words'. Catechism of the Catholic Church

Long answer: I believe God passed onto other men, 2,000 years ago, the 'understanding of His own words' and that understanding has been passed down for 2,000 years. I trust that God gave the Truth to the Apostles (the leaders of The Church) and they taught those Truths to other men (Apostolic Fathers who were leaders of The Church) and those men taught those Truths to other men (who were leaders of The Church) and those men taught those Truths to other men (who were leaders of The Church) etc etc. and those Truths have been passed down for 2,000 years. I believe The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Timothy 3:15) and it is to The Church, with authority to ex-communicate, that we go to so that we can settle our differences (Matthew 18:15-17). In an answer to Jesus prayer (John 17:20-23) The Church was One with One doctrine and One Truth until the revolution of the Reformation. Satan kept trying to divide The Church and the Truth and failed for 1,500 years. Then the revolution happened which divided Christianity by teaching each man that he can come up with his own truth......and be right. You follow the men of the revolution.

Mary

 

[Taken]

Hey taken,

Short answer: God does not reveal any new understanding OR Truths (interpretations of Scripture) to me!
Mary

That is quite evident.

 

[Marymog]

Not sure if you know this rwb, is Born Again...therefore the Holy Spirit leads him through scripture.....he doesn’t lead himself.

The Holy Spirit speaks through him...a Born Again recognises the voice of God Through another Born Again....as in rwb....I recognise the Spirit talking through him....God uses rwb, to speak his truth.

OH....interesting. RWB is ANOTHER Reformer!! You people have been doing this for over 500 years.

So, you agree with every interpretation of Scripture from @rwb?

Maybe you should let @Taken know that God uses RWB to speak His truth. It seems RWB's truth and Takens truth are different. Now I am confused about which one I should believe.

Mary

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That is quite evident.

Its amazing she will say we listen to men, While her whole understanding is her listening to men. And blindly following them

 

[Eternally Grateful]

see the mocking tone you get? This is why God will not reveal any new info to her.. She thinks she already has 100% truth.

You can not help a person who thinks this way, You can just pray for them

 

[Marymog]

The encounter team is a welcoming door, not a door mat.

When you resort to deflecting from engaging in a Spiritual conversation to child’s play of accusing others are in agreement from their “tummy’s thoughts”, you reveal your child’s play.

If one speaks as a child, understands as a child, they should have an expectation to receive a response a child can understand.

Once again, you are a very condescending person. You seem to take pride in that. You are DEFINITELY not a 'welcoming door'. It's baffling to me that you haven't been fired from your staff position just based on my experience with you.

Also, I think it's cute how you made yourself the victim (not a door mat ) in our conversation/debates. You think I am making you a door mat by disagreeing with you and revealing your lies? OKAY....victim!

Well, at least @Eternally Grateful likes your condescending tone. She also likes to dodge legitimate questions from me. But when you don't have Scripture on your side or to back up what you believe....that tends to happen.

Can we get back on track and discuss Scripture and doctrine? I'm getting tired of the condescending tones and the feeble attempts at belittling me.

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

That is quite evident.

LOVE the non-Christian like condescending tone....and so does @Eternally Grateful! She loves it when you don't act Christian like. I wonder why?

 

[PinSeeker]

You have articulated your position well and I appreciate that.

Thank you for the kind words.

I feel like I can have a conversation with you unlike some on here.

Well, thank you again, and I'm glad you feel that way. But I would submit to you, regarding what you intimate about some other posters here, every street is a two-way street (so to speak)...

I kind of owe you an apology because I didn't repeat your words; I interjected my own words/conclusion based on what I thought you meant.

Right, well, no apology necessary, but yes, I was and am well aware of that. :)

With that said, I agree with you that 'the overarching purpose of the Reformers was to re-form'. There is no doubt that The Church needed some reforming due to the corruption of some of its leaders and some of its policies (for a lack of better words).

Cool. Yes, it would be very hard to credibly disagree with that, which was my point

However, my general stance and what I have been trying to articulate on this still stands; The Reformers attempt to "bring back correct understanding and belief in God's holy, incorruptible, infallible, true Word' was a complete and utter failure.

This... is your opinion... and that's... okay with me. Really, I believe it's an ongoing work of the Holy Spirit, and the Reformers were used mightily during their time... and still is. In... my opinion. :)

Their attempts at reform divided Christianity and created MULTIPLE denominations with "infallible" doctrines based on what they each individually believed to be the "true Word" according to their own interpretation of Scripture.

I completely understand how this can be the perception, Mary. But as I said, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, John Knox... all the "Reformation heroes," so to speak, understood the constructs of God's Word along pretty much the same lines, and their understandings were along the same lines as folks like Augustine and people that came along after him. John Calvin even himself said, "Augustine is so wholly within me, that if I wished to write a confession of my faith, I could do so with all fullness and satisfaction to myself out of his writings." The evidence of the veracity of Calvin's statement is that Calvin uses an Augustine quote in every four pages written in the his work Institutes of the Christian Religion. So to say or even insinuate that the leaders of the Reformation believed or wrote different and/or contradicting things is absolutely untrue. Now, people since then have formed their own opinions regarding things that they said or wrote, but that has no effect on what they actually said or wrote.

Denominations were not really a result of the Reformation, Mary... Protestant denominations, of course, because those denominations came about after the initial "protest" of the 16th century, but not denominations themselves. Disagreements about Scripture among individuals and groups of individuals (and thus denominations) have been in existence since Scripture was written. :) And just about denominations ~ generally speaking; not necessarily Protestant denominations ~ themselves, I would agree with you that it is regrettable that they exist, that perfect unity is not possible in this fallen world. And one great Day... :)... there will again be perfect unity, and we all long for that Day. But in another sense, denominations are good, because they make it possible to get closer to the unity that Paul exhorts us to in Ephesians 4, albeit in smaller groups (that we generally call churches :)). But still, one great Day, we will all agree. :) All God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ.

Before the Reformation (revolution) most of Christianity was united under One Church with One doctrine and One truth which was, for the first 1,500 years of Christianity, a fulfilment of Jesus prayer (John 17:20-23). After the Reformation we were divided.

With all due respect, Mary, this is a very... naive... assertion. See above. Division has always been with us, and always will be, and probably will get even worse... until... Jesus comes back. :) This is no reason to quit striving for unity, but in this world, as it is, perfect unity remains elusive... an unattainable goal. But, when Jesus returns, that will no longer be the case.

Only Satan wants Christianity divided...

Sure. Among other things. :)

..and the Reformers gave that victory to him!!

Chuckles...

No, but again, I understand the perception...

Grace and peace to you.