Homosexuality: Wrong or Right?

[St. SteVen]

It is a sin for a man to lie with a man, as with a woman.

I suppose this could be used as a "proof-text" to support lesbianism?
It says nothing about a woman laying with a woman as with a man. Right?

It is a sin for a man to wear that which pertains to a woman.

Interesting that Tomboys are acceptable in our society. Wearing boys clothes.
Isn't it against a girls birth gender to do that? Seems like a double standard.

Why is it okay for a girl to act like a boy, but not okay for a boy to act like a girl?
Should girls be playing baseball and climbing trees? Fine by me.

/

 

[Wrangler]

Why would you rather not take your children to church if it’s not your current denominational preference? And what is this about a rock concert?

I do not grow in either of the churches that she would have me take them to. I am also very much a person who will not fake it till I make it. That is not real to me and is living a lie. Why would I bring my kids to a church that is not my current denominational preference, if my going there is a lie? They want someone who will support the church. They want someone there who likes going there. That is not me. It's the reason I stopped going to the Catholic church. I could no longer support the church.

The churches we attended had what amounted to a rock band. There was guitar, bass, keyboard, drums behind glass, and music blaring out of huge speakers. There is worship, but there are also these rock concerts. I prefer worship that is reserved and reverent.

I get that others prefer this kind of rock concert worship, and that's fine, for them. I am not that kind of person.

Once I met my fiance, she introduced me to the Episcopal church and I have finally found a church home. I just cannot bring my kids there as my ex-wife will not allow it and I am not about to be held in contempt of court for going against the divorce decree as written.

I hope this answers your questions.

To answer your first question of why you'd bring your kids to a church. It's for their benefit - not yours.

Yes, my questions were answered. Some parents make sacrifices for their kids. Other parents, it's all about me, myself and I. (And I hope you take this the right way).

When my wife and I got married, we attended 2 churches, hers and mine. We were married by both pastors of our respective churches. Eventually, we became disillusioned with my own church (largely because of their music selection that crushed my wife). So, now we just attend one church.

IMO, the benefit of your kids seeing you make God the center of your life, seeing your action of regularly taking them to church, of sacrificing your preferences to their spiritual growth far, FAR outweigh any drawbacks. I'll pray for you and hope you pray on this.

Shalom

 

[St. SteVen]

I don't think it is, SS, and frankly, I can't imagine how a short video could overturn the sinfulness of perversion. I've read and heard countless objections to the traditional interpretation of Leviticus 18 and Romans 1 and it always amounts to over-complicating something that is quite simple.

God has seen fit to keep the instances of direct teaching on the subject very limited and the reason for that seems very likely to be to avoid confusion. He even calls certain sexual practices "confusion" in and of themselves.

It seems that we are projecting things on the passage that need more consideration.
Is it referring to sex outside of marriage? Marriage doesn't even enter the picture.
Does it address lesbianism, or pedophilia? Thus giving approval?
What about concubines that were common in that culture? Prostitution as well.
And women being treated like property? Lots of unanswered questions.

I've watched at least part of Martin's Ted talk and his discussion with the Evangelical theologian and what I get from those is that he comes from the viewpoint of textual criticism and evolutionary theory which are rabbit holes of which I've thus far managed to keep my head clear, which will doubtless be no surprise to you, my friend. :)

I appreciate that fact that you are doing your homework on this to understand BOTH sides of the issue.
And you have been supportive all along in terms of not marginalizing LGBTQ people.

/

 

[Naomanos]

To answer your first question of why you'd bring your kids to a church. It's for their benefit - not yours.

Yes, my questions were answered. Some parents make sacrifices for their kids. Other parents, it's all about me, myself and I. (And I hope you take this the right way).

When my wife and I got married, we attended 2 churches, hers and mine. We were married by both pastors of our respective churches. Eventually, we became disillusioned with my own church (largely because of their music selection that crushed my wife). So, now we just attend one church.

IMO, the benefit of your kids seeing you make God the center of your life, seeing your action of regularly taking them to church, of sacrificing your preferences to their spiritual growth far, FAR outweigh any drawbacks. I'll pray for you and hope you pray on this.

Shalom

Thanks for the advice, but no. I will not be listening to it.

You have yourself a good day!

 

[St. SteVen]

TinMan said:
I doubt that most would even watch it much less learn from it.

Your incredulity and prejudice is truly staggering. I've been listening to Colby Martin for over 2 hours now.

.

To be fair, he wrote "most". (present company excepted)

/

 

[Wrangler]

The people who use the laws of Leviticus to justify prejudice of course don't follow the laws of Leviticus themselves noting that Christians live under a new Covenant and they don't see the double standard in that.

Bless your heart. The New Covenant is a higher standard of following God's will, not a lower standard.

I think you know that we are not saved by following the law.

Yet, if one asks if the Bible has anything to say about a topic, the Old Testament is included. And still, there are New Testament verses that indicate the condemnation against homosexuality has not changed. Do you, @TinMan, accept Jesus as your master and savior? It really comes down to that.

• If yes, you will turn away from your sinful ways.
• If no, none of your rhetoric will change the fact that you are already damned by self condemnation.

A minister once observed that most people want a savior but they still want to be lord over their own lives. It doesn't work that way. Either your own depravity is your god OR you follow the master. Keep in mind the purpose of our dear lord.


I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.
Jesus, John 10:10

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Solomon wrote that, at the height of his backsliding, he kept no delightful thing away from his eyes

And of course Solomon is an example of someone who was right with the Lord, then turned away from the Lord (backslid) and never came back to the Lord and was lost.

We should notice that he is not listed in the faith hall of fame in the book of Hebrews so he did not go to Heaven with all the other OT saints listed.

If yes, you will turn away from your sinful ways

Some get born again... then hear the message of the OSAS peoples can go back to sin because the OSAS people's message convinces them that they can live in sin if they wanted and still go to Heaven.

This is what is so deceptive about the OSAS people's message is they go around telling everyone that it's not possible to lose your salvation... so some folks hear that error being taught and believe it's OK to continue in their sin.

The OSAS people contradict their own message by claiming one cannot be gay or transgender and still be saved... more and more of the OSAS peoples are now embracing the funny people and tell them it's all good cause not only are all their future sins forgiven already, but they claim God cannot even see their sin

So more and more of the OSAS peoples are telling the funny peoples that it's all good if they wanna let their freak flog fly and get all jiggy with their sexual perversions!

 

[BarneyFife]

And of course Solomon is an example of someone who was right with the Lord, then turned away from the Lord (backslid) and never came back to the Lord and was lost.

We should notice that he is not listed in the faith hall of fame in the book of Hebrews so he did not go to Heaven with all the other OT saints listed.

And I'd really like to visit your planet someday.

Especially if you can't see anything wrong with your wildly erroneous hermeneutic here.

We get it—you hate the eternal security doctrine.

.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Interesting to note in these video presentations by the parents of transgender children,
that the child was typically between 3 and 5 years old when parents noticed the first undeniable signs
of the gender preferences showed up in their child. In this story, the Mom saw a refection
of her Tomboy self in her son that wanted to play with dolls and wear dresses.

Time to Blossom: Accepting My Transgender Daughter | Elizabeth August | TEDxPasadenaWomen​

449,310 views Nov 22, 2016
Elizabeth August shares her story about the magnitude of a mother's love. This young mom tells how she had to grieve the death of a son while simultaneously celebrating the birth of a daughter, when her five-year-old, who was born male, asked to present as a girl. Elizabeth is a dedicated elementary school teacher entering her 11th year in the classroom. She teaches social justice and acceptance of others and strives to teach students to think critically and be solution-oriented. She works to create a safe and open environment in her classroom. Over the last few years, Elizabeth’s journey as a mother of a transgender child opened her eyes and heart to what acceptance really means, and how adults not only need to teach children to accept others, but accept themselves. Her experiences have fostered her passion to ensure civil rights for all people. Elizabeth believes that by accepting and sharing our true selves with each other, we can create a diverse and loving community. Elizabeth studied Psychology and is married with two children.

/

No such thing as transgender.

 

[CadyandZoe]

attacking, denouncing degrading and false claims is not correction.

You are misreading and misconstruing my posts. Why is that? I never attacked anyone. I never degraded anyone. And I never made false claims about anyone.

You are confused.

 

[BarneyFife]

To be fair, he wrote "most". (present company excepted)

Believe it or not, I took that into account and gave it it's due consideration.

.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It is also far too common for people to assume that the meaning of a compound word is the result of the combining of the meanings of it's root words.

The point is not that language is full of strange phrases or that metaphors are a common literary device. the point is that any written work is the product of it's time and culture and that cultural understanding of the world. SO the four corners of the world comes from a time and culture that believed that the earth was flat. and calling bats birds is because at the time people didn't classify living animals onto classes like we do.

The bible is a product of its time and not a scientific work and not all of the facts we know now are going to fit in.
We know orientation is inborn just like we know that Black people have not been cursed with dark skin because of that actions of Noah's son Ham.

Not even close to what I am saying.

YOU dislike of the overwhelming evidence doesn't make the evidence go away.

Flat Earthers don 't like the evidence that the planet is a sphere and deny it and argue against it, but that doesn't change the shape of our home.

You should really educate yourself on the basics of gentics

You should educate yourself on the philosophy of science.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Especially if you can't see anything wrong with your wildly erroneous hermeneutic here.

You obviously have no good explanation for why all the heavy hitters of God's OT saints are listed in the hall of fame in the Book of Hebrews... but Solomon was not listed.

It's because he turned away from the Lord and never repented and came back to the Lord like King David did among others. This is yet another example that OSAS ios false doctrine which is true and correct interpretation of God's Word as we will see when the future gets here!

The error is on the OSAS peoples who believe God can be mocked as they believe we do not reap what we sow... which is mocking God according to Gal 6:7,8

 

[BarneyFife]

You obviously have no good explanation for why all the heavy hitters of God's OT saints are listed in the hall of fame in the Book of Hebrews... but Solomon was not listed.

No, I just don't know where the master list of "heavy hitters" is located. And so I figured there must be more than the few who are listed in Hebrews 11, especially since verse 32 seems to be somewhat open-ended.

Silly me.

I should assumed the argument from silence.

.

 

[Scott Downey]

And of course Solomon is an example of someone who was right with the Lord, then turned away from the Lord (backslid) and never came back to the Lord and was lost.

We should notice that he is not listed in the faith hall of fame in the book of Hebrews so he did not go to Heaven with all the other OT saints listed.




Some get born again... then hear the message of the OSAS peoples can go back to sin because the OSAS people's message convinces them that they can live in sin if they wanted and still go to Heaven.

This is what is so deceptive about the OSAS people's message is they go around telling everyone that it's not possible to lose your salvation... so some folks hear that error being taught and believe it's OK to continue in their sin.

The OSAS people contradict their own message by claiming one cannot be gay or transgender and still be saved... more and more of the OSAS peoples are now embracing the funny people and tell them it's all good cause not only are all their future sins forgiven already, but they claim God cannot even see their sin

So more and more of the OSAS peoples are telling the funny peoples that it's all good if they wanna let their freak flog fly and get all jiggy with their sexual perversions!

Our New Covenant with God is built on better promises, one is the relationship is a union with God, believers are joined as one spirit with God, and God works all things in this way, the other is Christ through whom God forgives us all of our sins.

Romans 8
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession [g]for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?​

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Hebrews 8 is very important to understand this NC that God built as the OC was problematic, the relationship could be fractured, as in the covenant could be broken by man. The NC is unbreakable as God once He saves a soul, makes it good all the way to the end of that person's life. We are not talking about fake Christians though who draw back, but real ones that He saved. Did you know Christ in John 5 says once you believe, you have passed from death into eternal life?
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Hebrews 8
Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the [a]sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.

3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

A New Covenant​

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins [b]and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

I just don't know where the master list of "heavy hitters" is located.

You don't reckon the Lord is getting forgetful in His old age and accidentally left some folks off the list in Hebrews.

No, the Lord means what He says and He says what He means.... the list in Hebrews is not an exhaustive list of all OT saints, but is rather a list of those that the Lord was impressed with that He considered to be saved.

Salomon was used of God to write scripture and at one time was a heavy hitter so to speak... but sadly, we see from Salomon's own writings that he fell away from the Lord and never returned. This is why he was not saved and is not in Heaven right now with all the other great men of faith from the OT.

 

[TinMan]

Bless your heart. The New Covenant is a higher standard of following God's will, not a lower standard.

I think you know that we are not saved by following the law.

Yet, if one asks if the Bible has anything to say about a topic, the Old Testament is included.

So we should observe the old testament on subjects like rape and blood sacrifice and slavery and polygamy.

 

[Scott Downey]

You don't reckon the Lord is getting forgetful in His old age and accidentally left some folks off the list in Hebrews.

No, the Lord means what He says and He says what He means.... the list in Hebrews is not an exhaustive list of all OT saints, but is rather a list of those that the Lord was impressed with that He considered to be saved.

Salomon was used of God to write scripture and at one time was a heavy hitter so to speak... but sadly, we see from Salomon's own writings that he fell away from the Lord and never returned. This is why he was not saved and is not in Heaven right now with all the other great men of faith from the OT.

All of that is the old covenant relationship though. Even if it was by faith, it was based on the Old Covenant, they way it worked, and God called it faulty as they broke that covenant again and again with God.
In the NC, a saved person cannot break this covenant as God works all things to their good.
It is even based on eternity past, that God decreed certain people before time began would receive His grace and be saved, so it cannot be thwarted by anything.

2 Timothy 1
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Our New Covenant with God is built on better promises, one is the relationship is a union with God

Yes, and what Jesus did on the Cross did not do away with sewed time and harvest causing us to reap what we sow,

If we turn away from the Lord (sow to the flesh) we shall of the flesh reap corruption according to Gal 6:7,8.... to say otherwise is to mock God according to Gal 6:7,8....


The Lord desires to have fellowship with those that are like Him, which excludes angels and all other created being as they were not created in His Image. Mankind is the only being God created in His Own Image. We are valued above ALL other creatures because God's intention in creating us is to be in fellowship with man on God's level!

Speaking of those that have been born again Ephesians 2:6 tells us God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus. In other words, He wants fellowship with beings who are like Himself... who CHOOSE to be with Him! Who CHOOSE to turn away from darkness in order to walk and live in agreement with the Lord.

This is the whole purpose for our existence! Not only to desire to be with the Lord... but to put our faith and desire in to action and turn away from darkness, from things that the Lord does not approve of so we can fellowship with Him in righteousness.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOES righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

When someone derides to sin, they are willingly turning away from the Lord, on purpose after having come to the age of accountability where they know the difference between right and wrong (not speaking of little children)

There is no darkness in God (1 John 1:5), and the Lord has no fellowship with darkness (2 Corinthians 6:14)... so those that sin are separated from the Lord by their willingness to turn away from Him and walk in darkness.

1 John 1:6
if we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

The OSAS peoples have been fooled intro believing one can do sin and not be separated from the Lord! This is not taught in God's Word. I get it that nobody wants to talk about what happens to those that continue in sin... but it's better to talk about what God's Word says about it than to make up a fake gospel that says "you can never ever never never lose your salvation"

This means if one continues in sin they must say this person is still saved because if they don't they are acknowledging that OSAS is false doctrine which will make them look stupid so as a matter of pride and in the interest of never being seen as being in error... they have to say those that continue in sin as still; saved in their view.

This obviously is NOT what God's Word teaches... and the OSAS peoples wouldn't know that because they don't accept all the Lord has said in His Word about it. They can't, because if they did they would have to admit that OSAS is false doctrine and they will never ever never never do that.

Proverbs 28:13
He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

One cannot obtain mercy after they have sinned without confessing their sin unto the Lord and turning away from their sin. The old timers called it "admit it and quit it" and then we should make no provisions for the flesh to continue in sin (Romans 13:14) by walking after the Spirit so we aren't fulfilling the desires of the flesh (Galatians 5:16-26)

What the OSAS peoples won't tell you because they don't accept the validity of this is... God is NOT mocked... whatsoever a man sows, that shall He also reap he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. (Galatians 6:7-8)

They'll agree that when one is born again they did sow to the spirit and reaped life... but then they deny and ignore the rest of Galatians 6:7-8 claiming if one sows to the flesh (sins) they do not rep corruption.

In Gal 6:8, the word corruption is...

G5356
fthora from G5351; decay, i.e. ruin -- corruption, destroy, perish.

G5351
strengthened from phthio (to pine or waste); properly, to shrivel or wither, i.e. to spoil or to ruin, by moral influences, to deprave): -- corrupt (self), defile, destroy.

If one claims we DO reap corruption when we sin, then they are admitting they do not believe OSAS / Eternal security doctrine (and sadly many of their friends will forsake them!).... and if one claims we DO NOT reap what we sow, then according to Gal 6:7, that would be mocking God!

Adam and Eve were given eternal life by the Lord when He created them... but when they sinned against God they became corrupt and died spiritually and became separated from God. So Gal 6:7,8 is quite the quandary, quite the state of uncertainty and perplexity for the adherents of OSAS doctrine.

The OSAS peoples don't know that salvation is on God's terms and what Jesus did at the Cross of Calvary... does not eliminate or do away with seedtime and harvest. God is not mocked!

In Jesus' classic teaching on sowing and reaping, He said "Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?" (Mark 4:13)

God created man in His Image, therefore just like God... mankind reaps what he sows and is responsible for the seeds he plants. If man does good, he'll receive good... if he does evil, he'll receive evil.

Romans 2:9-11
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.

 

[TinMan]

Bless your heart.

Still waiting for you to tell us just what evil 8 year of Gabriel was engaged in