Who ARE "the prophets" in Ephesians 2:20?

[St. SteVen]

My apologies in advance. This will take some doing to establish what the Bible says about this.
I have broken it down into several posts. I hope that makes it easier to deal with.

Thanks to anyone who is able to work through this and/or comment appropriately.
Please correct me if I got anything wrong, thanks.

Don't miss the BIG question at the end. Thanks.

This came up today in a post.
Someone made reference to the "prophets and apostles" in Ephesians 2:20. Scripture quoted below.
I commented on the post, because I remembered that it was the other way around, "apostles and prophets".
This had first come to my notice in a sermon, which had nothing to do with the word order.

"built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone." - Ephesians 2:20 NIV

I noticed that neither "apostles" nor "prophets" were capitalized. Which seemed to indicate that this
was not in reference to the Apostles and the Prophets. But was it in reference to?

Were there:
- apostles (small a) ? and...
- prophets (small p) ?

A quick check in with King Jimmy to see what he would say. Yup,

"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,
Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" - Ephesians 2:20 KJV

Okay, so who are these apostles and prophets?
And what is the significance of the list order?

- Were there apostles other than the 12 Apostles? (capital A)
- Were there prophets other than the OT Prophets? (capital P)
- Were there prophets other than the OT Prophets in which the foundation of our faith was built?
As in, prophets that made a significant contribution to faith in Christ after the Apostles, and with the apostles. (small a)

But first, let's check the near context to see if there is any indication otherwise.

"Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers,
but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household,
20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets,
with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.
21 In him the whole building is joined together
and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.
22 And in him you too are being built together
to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit." - Ephesians 2:19-22 NIV

Nope, no further indication that this is in reference to the Apostles and OT Prophets.
Let's dig a bit further.

Continued in the next post.

 

[St. SteVen]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Continued from the previous post.

We know that the apostle Paul was an apostle outside the original 12.
I also notice that "apostles" in the gospels and in acts are not designated as "Apostles" (capital A)
except in the inserted subheadings, but rather as "apostles". (small a) HOWEVER... check this out...

"But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes
and rushed out into the crowd, shouting:" - Acts 14:14 NIV

Say what? This reads, "the apostles Barnabas and Paul..." ???
Here, Barnabas is being referred to as an apostle along with Paul,
who was already outside of the original 12. And amazingly,
Barnabas is listed first. Perhaps out of respect, since he had been
a Jesus follower and leader on some level longer than Paul?

Okay, so now we have the original 12, and Paul, and Barnabas as apostles.
Here's another one. Notice the word "we". He says, "we received grace and apostleship".
Who is the "we" in this statement?

"Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the
obedience that comes from[a] faith for his name’s sake." - Romans 1:5 NIV

Ready for more? Check this out. ??? Andronicus and Junia?
This says that "Andronicus and Junia... are outstanding among the apostles..."
And recognizes their maturity stating, "they were in Christ before I was."

"Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me.
They are outstanding among[a] the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was." - Romans 16:7 NIV

Okay, so now we have the original 12, and Paul, and Barnabas, Andronicus and Junia as apostles.
Any more? Here is a vague reference that Paul may be referring to the whole Corinthian church as apostles.
The context seems to indicate a statement where Paul is including them.

"For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like those condemned to die
in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to human beings." - 1 Corinthians 4:9 NIV

Now we arrive at I Corinthians chapter 12. Concerning spiritual gifts and the parts of the body. What apostles are referred to here?
We are all familiar with the reference to apostles here, as in "... first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers..." But look at verse 29.
"Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? ..." These are body parts of EVERY church, not just the universal church.
All of these BODY PARTS should be a part of every church body. So, how many apostles does this make?

"And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers,
then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[a]? Do all interpret? - 1 Corinthians 12:28-30 NIV

Wait, there's more... Here the Apostle Paul makes reference to "false apostles... "masquerading as apostles of Christ."
You don't point out a counterfeit if there is a genuine to compare to. So, we are these "apostles of Christ"?

"For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ." - 2 Corinthians 11:13 NIV

We have worked our way up to the book of Ephesians, where we started. And again we see a reference to "apostles and prophets".

"which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed
by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets." - Ephesians 3:5 NIV

Continuing in Ephesians we see a similar list as in I Corinthians 12.
Notice that "apostles and prophets" are given to edify, build up, the church.
This cannot be a reference to the original 12, or to Paul, any more than the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, mentioned.
Who are these "apostles and prophets" that work in partnership with our "evangelists, pastors and teachers"?

"So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,
12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up" - Ephesians 4:11-12 NIV

There's more... Again Paul uses "we" in reference to apostles. "... as apostles of Christ we..."

"You know we never used flattery, nor did we put on a mask to cover up greed—God is our witness.
6 We were not looking for praise from people, not from you or anyone else, even though as apostles of Christ we could have asserted our authority.
7 Instead, we were like young children[a] among you." - 1 Thessalonians 2:5-7 NIV

Now we move on the the wring of Peter. Here is a vague reference to "your apostles". Why not THE Apostles?
And who is Peter quoting here in verse three?

"Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking.
2 I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires." - 2 Peter 3:1-3 NIV

Now we move on to Revelation. Will we find anything there? (yes) Who are these that claim to be apostles but are not?
Notice that John says "you have tested" them to see if they are apostles. Obviously, they could have passed the test.
Why test them if the original 12 are the ONLY apostles?

"I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people,
that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false." - Revelation 2:2 NIV

Next, John uses the term "apostles and prophets", Sound familiar? - LOL

“Rejoice over her, you heavens!
Rejoice, you people of God!
Rejoice, apostles and prophets!
For God has judged her
with the judgment she imposed on you.”
- Revelation 18:20 NIV

Lastly, John makes this specific reference to "the twelve apostles".

"The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names
of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." - Revelation 21:14 NIV

Okay, what about the prophets?

Continued in the next post.

 

[St. SteVen]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Continued from the previous post.

Let's review our key verse and take it from there.

"built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone." - Ephesians 2:20 NIV

Here are the questions we began with in the OP. (post #1)

Okay, so who are these apostles and prophets?
And what is the significance of the list order?

- Were there apostles other than the 12 Apostles? (capital A)
- Were there prophets other than the OT Prophets? (capital P)
- Were there prophets other than the OT Prophets in which the foundation of our faith was built?
As in, prophets that made a significant contribution to faith in Christ after the Apostles, and with the apostles. (small a)

We have answered the question about apostles.

We found references to the original 12, and Paul, and Barnabas, Andronicus and Junia as apostles.
Also found were reference to the office of apostle in the church, I would say EVERY church fellowship.
As part of the list of offices of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.
Known as the five-fold ministry.

"So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,
12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up" - Ephesians 4:11-12 NIV

We have exhausted the biblical references about apostles outside the 12 and Paul.
Or perhaps we have only exhausted me? - LOL

What about prophets in the New Testament. References to prophets other than the OT prophets.
We have already seen the office of prophet, along with apostles, evangelists, pastors and teachers.
But was anyone named as a prophet in the new testament? Let's check.

Jesus said this,

"“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing,
but inwardly they are ferocious wolves." - Matthew 7:15 NIV

If there are false prophets, we can assume that there are real prophets.

Here are more references that speak for themselves.

"Whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes
a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward." - Matthew 10:41 NIV

"If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear fine clothes are in kings’ palaces.
9 Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet." - Matthew 11:8-9 NIV

So, evidence here of New Testament prophets. John the Baptist being a named, or inferred prophet.
Now we can begin to name some New Testament prophets. (and other significant passages)

"There was also a prophet, Anna, the daughter of Penuel, of the tribe of Asher.
She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage," - Luke 2:36 NIV

"During this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch." - Acts 11:27 NIV

"Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger,
Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul." - Acts 13:1 NIV

"They traveled through the whole island until they came to Paphos.
There they met a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus," - Acts 13:6 NIV

"Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets, said much to encourage and strengthen the believers." - Acts 15:32 NIV

"After we had been there a number of days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea." - Acts 21:10 NIV

"Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said." - 1 Corinthians 14:29 NIV

"The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets." - 1 Corinthians 14:32 NIV

"If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what
I am writing to you is the Lord’s command." - 1 Corinthians 14:37 NIV

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you.
They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—
bringing swift destruction on themselves." - 2 Peter 2:1 NIV

"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God,
because many false prophets have gone out into the world." - 1 John 4:1 NIV

Again, please note that any reference to a FALSE prophet indicates that there are TRUE prophets.

So we have some named prophets found in our search. Anna, Barnabas, Simeon called Niger,
Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. Judas and Silas.

So, we do find both apostles beyond the 12 and Paul and prophets beyond the OT Prophets of old.

QUESTION: What do we suppose was the foundation which was built upon?

"built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone." - Ephesians 2:20 NIV

 

[St. SteVen]

--- Summary post ---

"built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone." - Ephesians 2:20 NIV

- Were there apostles other than the 12 Apostles? (capital A)
- Were there prophets other than the OT Prophets? (capital P)
- Were there prophets other than the OT Prophets in which the foundation of our faith was built?
As in, prophets that made a significant contribution to faith in Christ after the Apostles, and with the apostles. (small a)

Yes, there were apostles other than the original 12 and the Apostle Paul.
We have the original 12, and Paul, and Barnabas, Andronicus and Junia as apostles.
Any more? There is a vague reference that Paul made referring to the whole Corinthian church as apostles.
The context seems to indicate a statement where Paul is including them.
Furthermore, the five-fold ministry puts an apostle in every church.

We have some named prophets found in our search. Anna, Barnabas, Simeon called Niger,
Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. Judas and Silas.
Furthermore, the five-fold ministry puts prophets in every church.

So, we do find both apostles beyond the 12 and Paul and prophets beyond the OT Prophets of old.

QUESTION: What do we suppose was the foundation which was built upon?

"built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone." - Ephesians 2:20 NIV

 

[Wick Stick]

"built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone." - Ephesians 2:20 NIV

I noticed that neither "apostles" nor "prophets" were capitalized. Which seemed to indicate that this
was not in reference to the Apostles and the Prophets. But was it in reference to?

Were there:
- apostles (small a) ? and...
- prophets (small p) ?

A quick check in with King Jimmy to see what he would say. Yup,

"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,
Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" - Ephesians 2:20 KJV

Relying on capitalization in the Bible is usually a bad idea. Capitalization isn't a thing in Greek, ya know? Better to rely on the presence (or lack) of the definite article ("THE").

This verse refers to THE Apostles, and (some) prophets. Which is to say, Paul has certain apostles in mind - probably the 12 and perhaps himself. But there isn't any certain prophet(s) in mind - he's just referring to all prophets in a nebulous way.

Had he said THE Prophets, I would have assumed that he was referring to the group of Scriptural books that are usually called by that name (roughly the 2nd half of the OT).

- Were there apostles other than the 12 Apostles? (capital A)

I think so, but they aren't being referred to here.

- Were there prophets other than the OT Prophets? (capital P)

Definitely. Jesus and John are referred to as prophets in the gospels, as well as Zacharias in Luke 11.

- Were there prophets other than the OT Prophets in which the foundation of our faith was built?

John and Jesus seem pretty important. ;)

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Welcome @Wick Stick to CB.

 

[St. SteVen]

Relying on capitalization in the Bible is usually a bad idea. Capitalization isn't a thing in Greek, ya know? Better to rely on the presence (or lack) of the definite article ("THE").

That's a good point,
I still find the word order interesting, apostles and prophets.

What's your take on the BIG question at the end?

 

[MatthewG]

The chief cornerstone is whom one builds off of, however, the apostles that he had sent are also a help in continuing to become fortified in the faith. 1 Corinthians 3:11, the apostles built on him, as the chief cornerstone with profound spiritual insights from having been taught from the Lord Yeshua.

 

[Wick Stick]

Welcome @Wick Stick to CB.

Howdy

 

[Wick Stick]

What's your take on the BIG question at the end?

QUESTION: What do we suppose was the foundation which was built upon?

The grammar in the verse dictates that the apostles and prophets are the foundation.

 

[St. SteVen]

The grammar in the verse dictates that the apostles and prophets are the foundation.

What does that mean for us in practical terms?

 

[MatthewG]

@Wick Stick,

Wouldn't everyone whom had been sent by Yahava to proclaim the message of him, be an apostle, and those who were prophets in the old testament proclaim the message of Yahava, and the coming of the messiah? Jesus chose 12 chosen apostles, and sent them forth, he also being an apostle and a prophet - and the fulfiller of the law. All of them had come before the messiah did all pointed to the LORD, and also those who were sent by the Lord Jesus the anointed one, also pointed to Jesus. Wouldn't the foundation be built on him?

 

[Wick Stick]

What does that mean for us in practical terms?

I can think of a very long answer to this question that examines a couple possible ways to read the verse in the context of other parts of the Bible. But nobody wants to read all that, so instead I'll attempt a simple answer.

Practically, it means that The Church exists and acts as a community, and if we do not have that then we are no temple at all.

 

[Wick Stick]

@Wick Stick,

Wouldn't everyone whom had been sent by Yahava to proclaim the message of him, be an apostle and those who were prophets in the old testament proclaim the message of Yahava, and the coming of the messiah?

The sentence is a little confusing, but... no?

Everyone sent to proclaim the good news - that's an evangelist. An apostle is a different thing than an evangelist. An apostle has a writ of authority to speak/act on behalf of the person who sent them. An evangelist just delivers a message.

Jesus chose 12 chosen apostles, and sent them forth, he also being an apostle and a prophet - and the fulfiller of the law. All of them had come before the messiah did all pointed to the LORD, and also those who were sent by the Lord Jesus the anointed one, also pointed to Jesus. Wouldn't the foundation be built on him?

Yes. In the verse He is part of the foundation - the chief cornerstone.

 

[Lambano]

I was thinking along the lines of "Who has real authority and how do you know?" when y'all were talking about why the certain congregations did not receive the tangible baptism of the Holy Spirit until certain apostles showed up and laid hands on them. I didn't like that answer, so I stayed the hell out of that thread. Because it begs the question in this one: If the foundation of Jesus Christ's church Christ at the cornerstone plus the apostles and prophets "sent from God", do the offices of apostle and prophet still exist today, and if so, how do we know who has the real authority from God?

I can see six ways from Sunday how this can get screwed up.

And I can see why the modern mainline denominations are defacto cessationists.

 

[MatthewG]

The sentence is a little confusing, but... no?

What was confusing about it? Are there any more living prophets or apostles today?

Everyone sent to proclaim the good news - that's an evangelist. An apostle is a different thing than an evangelist. An apostle has a writ of authority to speak/act on behalf of the person who sent them. An evangelist just delivers a message.

Okay.

Yes. In the verse He is part of the foundation - the chief cornerstone.

Thank you for your time, and answering.

 

[MatthewG]

I was thinking along the lines of "Who has real authority and how do you know?" when y'all were talking about why the certain congregations did not receive the tangible baptism of the Holy Spirit until certain apostles showed up and laid hands on them. I didn't like that answer, so I stayed the hell out of that thread. Because it begs the question in this one: If the foundation of Jesus Christ's church was the local apostles and prophets, do the offices of apostle and prophet still exist today, and if so, how do we know who has the real authority from God?

I can see six ways from Sunday how this can get screwed up.

Lambano,

The word apostle just means one who is sent,

The term apostle is derived from Classical Greek ἀπόστολος (apóstolos), meaning "one who is sent off", from στέλλειν ("stellein"), "to send" + από (apó), "off, away from". The literal meaning in English is therefore an "emissary" (from the Latin mittere, "to send", and ex, "from, out, off".

Can't anyone who is a follower of the way, and living by the holy spirit recall upon what they have learned in the bible to give in any situation for other people to think and consider about?

John 14:26

And He will cause you to recall (will remind you of, bring to your remembrance) everything I have told you.

Of course this was Jesus talking directly to his chosen apostles, however it can have a meaning for us today to cant it? While they couldn't understand only up their own ability by the nature of the flesh - the holy spirit was going to come and remind them of everything they were taught by Jesus however the doors of heaven would be open, like when heaven opened for Jesus when he was baptized and they would learn and understand more than they originally knew.

When it comes down to are there apostles and prophets today? As in -- anyone who has authority from God himself -- I would say no. However people who go and send a message to someone is sorry of an apostle however, they were not the "chosen ones," like you see when Jesus talks about "I chose you, you did not choose me," that was directly to those 12, and eventually Judas went another way, and Mattias was replaced, but Paul seems to be the one whom was chosen to go to the Gentiles.

 

[St. SteVen]

Practically, it means that The Church exists and acts as a community, and if we do not have that then we are no temple at all.

That's a good concise answer. Thanks.
How much value do you give to Church Tradition as weighed against a strict adherence to scripture,
or even a more open approach like we see in the contemporary church? Like Hillsong, for instance. (scandals aside)

 

[Wick Stick]

Are there any more living prophets or apostles today?

I think so, although I'll be quick to say that it's very rare. There isn't a prophet or apostle in every church, or even in every major city.

 

[Lambano]

How much value do you give to Church Tradition as weighed against a strict adherence to scripture?

As Methodists, we are supposed to weigh Scripture, Church Tradition, Reason, and Experience (the Wesleyan quadrilateral). In any case, we all interpret Scripture through the lens of Church Tradition, Reason, and our own Experience anyway.