Note: what Aunty Jane preaches is the opposite of what “Mormons” believe. For example, LDS Christians (“Mormons”) believe that Jesus Christ, is the divine Son of God and has always existed. God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son (Christ). It is through Christ (and only Him) that a person / the world is saved from their sins and has eternal life.
Question for non-JW's
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Simple, well to me anyway: Jesus was speaking of his rank and importance compared with Abraham - the Son of God, that Abraham knew about in his days. And with strong implication and logic for his message to be completed he referred to his Father who created him and sent him to do his will (verse 42). And that the Father had this event of his birth planned way before Abraham was even born. So there are two factors in Jesus' message, that he was greater than Abraham and that the Father planned for him to become the true Son of God before Abraham was born.
Jesus all along was attempting to persuade his audience saying that Abraham would be on his side and his Father, the one God as told in John 8:41.
If you read for context, back to verse verse 39 Jesus began with the if statement...that they were not Abraham's descendants as they would still be doing and believing as Abraham, their father. In other words they should have know about the Son of God and when and why he would arrive on the scene, via scripture.
Abraham was a believer in the Son of God and his Father. Abraham knew there would be a future Messiah, the true Son of God planned for before he was born and would arrive in his distant future. Abraham was glad and rejoiced to 'see' the day (verse 56). This, the Pharisees and many today cannot still understand.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
But Jesus did not say that
he literally said before abraham existed, I always existed.. He did not say I am higher in rank.. and the pharisees would not try to stone him for blasphemy if that is what he meant..
Agreed. What a rational person should do is the converse; believe what is real.
Trying to make reality fit one’s belief system is why there is the field of psychology to address mental psychosis. People who think they can fly do this.
EG there is no Greek 'ego eimi' that translates into 'I am' or 'I am he' in the Exodus scripture you indicate here. You are confused unfortunately.
In Exodus 3:14, YHWH called himself to Moses, in Hebrew, אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה, to ’ehyeh ’ăšer ’ehyeh . If we wanted to translate this expression into Greek, to compare what is said in verse John 8:58b, we see they are completely different expressions in translation and meaning. It would translate into English as: ‘ego eimi ho ōn’ This is different from ‘ego eimi’ at all. YHWH gave an expression of himself, of his personal name. A rough English translation would be like: ‘I am who I am,’ ‘I am that I am,’ ‘I am the being’ or ‘I am the existing one’ or ‘I am existing,’ and other words for this effect – never just ‘I am.’
And further, you see in Greek, ‘ego eimi’ is a common expression used by ALL people and not just Jesus. It literally means that I am he or she, the one who is the subject at hand, and usually in a very emphatic and prejudicial way. Ex: I am the one who stole the pie, no one else...It was I who won the race and not he or she......
Can you imagine if we searched for and replaced every ‘I am’ found with YHWH/LORD/Lord in the New Testament?
So, if you have read in a Bible, and in Exodus 3:14 in particular that says 'I am' or even 'I AM' it's a gross err, born out of deliberate bias and dishonesty, and inserted by the translator or the power behind it.
And check for the footnotes...like in the CEV Bible..it says clearly "since it seems related to the word translated "I am," it may mean "I am the one who is" or "I will be what I will be" or I am the one who brings into being""
This is the personal expression of YHWH not some come ordinary expression as I am or I am he that a blind man used for himself.
Here are some examples:
Matt 26:25 - And Judas, who betrayed him, answered and said: Is it I, Rabbi? He said to him: You have said it.
Luke 1:19 - And the angel answering said to him: I am Gabriel who stands in the presence of God, and I was sent to speak to you and to bring you these good tidings.
Luke 21:8 - And he said: Take heed you are not led astray. For many shall come in my name, saying: I am he, and, The time is at hand. Do not be led astray by them.
John 6:20 - But he said to them: It is I! Be not afraid!
John 8:18 - I am he that testifies of myself; and the Father that sent me testifies of me.
John 8:24 - I replied to you, that you shall die in your sins. For unless you believe that I am he, you shall die in your sins.
John 9:9 - Others said: It is he. Others said: No, but he is like him. He said: I am he.
John 13:19 - From this time forward I will tell you before it happens, so that when it happens, you may believe that I am he.
John 18:5 - They answered him: Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus said to them: I am he (Judas, the one who betrayed him, was standing with them).
Act 10:21 - And Peter went down to the men and said: I am the one you seek. Why have you come?
Romans 11:13 - " But I speak to you who are Gentiles- inasmuch as I am an apostle of the Gentiles, I glorify my ministry, "
Rev 2:23 - And I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will repay each of you as your works deserve.
You are adding in your opinion. He never said he always existed, now did he. You deduced that for yourself.
And he actually inferred he was greater than Abraham at least, if you read the context, the other previous verses. That was part of the main train of thought and argument each side was trying to make/win and prove/ disprove.
You cannot just make a judgment or conclusion based on ONE verse alone, especially not written for the modern ENGLISH reader and it culture.
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BINGO!
I find it peculiar that trinitarians are OK with relying on intellectually dishonest assertions and arguments.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
The greek word ego eimi is used in John 8: 58, it is also used as the greek interpretation of the OT in the count of YHWH giving moses his name "Ego Eimi"
the term ego is a word which means I. me, we depending on how it is used.
the term eimi is a word which means I am, or I exist.
Jesus could have just used the word Eimi, but he used the two words. they literally say I - I Am or I I have existed
so no, I am not confused. I have actually went into the greek to see what it actually means
once again in the greek septuigint, which was the greek interpretation of the Old Testament for the people into greek.. the words ego eimi was used as his name.
Jesus said before abraham was, I always existed.
Jesus told the father, give me the glory he had with him before time began.
John 17: 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Thomas called him my God, and jesus did not correct him
The crime jesus was convicted of was claiming to be God.. that is what the jews accused him of.
there are so many more passages I can show.. but hopefully you see a pattern
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
yes he did..
even using the English definition., I Am.. in defenition, it says he was before abraham existed. and he continues o be today.
no. This is not what he said,, This is you adding your opinion (using your own words)
And I believe you going off to get again misread or misinterpret another scripture - Single verse again, because I believe you think you need more single verses to make your original point stick about what you think John 8:58 means. One err with another does not make a right I'm afraid.
So let's look at John 17:5 now, another misread verse without first understanding the context from which it was written.
In verse 5, Jesus spoke to his Father about his last work yet to be completed, on the Cross. He wants his Father to give him glory from his death on the cross by raising him up to immortality and eternal life, and bring others also to this eternal life, and therefore be with his Father, both together in glory, promised and planned for him before the world was, or cosmos was made.
The phrase reads as translated in the King James Version: “…with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” This phrase in the original Greek might be literally translated, “Before the world to be” (see Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott).
(Heb 2:5) For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking. (ESV). It is the “world to be,” the eternal Kingdom, rather than anything Jesus had previously experienced in heaven.
The word translated “world” in this passage is not the earth on which we stand, i.e., He is not referring to the creation of the earth, but to the cosmos, which means the “arrangement” of governments or people upon the earth, one’s surroundings – the start of human society .
The creation of Jesus’ spirit and body and his works was part of the plan of God from the beginning; to bring glory to himself and his Son, together, in heaven. For Christ to be the instrument whereby all true believers shall also gain eternal life and immortality.
There are many who view verse 5 from a quite different perspective. They rationalize from their own imaginations and not from scripture, that Christ was saying to his Father to give him back a literal glory of being immortal again, or divinity he once possessed with his Father before the world began. It really ‘hangs out there’ as a ‘sore thumb’ with no scriptural thought or plan from God and with complete disregard for its surrounding context.
It is deliberate bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence of Christ into this verse rather than a figurative existence of him, only in the mind of God, the Father of all.
Here are the reasons why their literal view cannot be true - it is figurative.
These same people of a verse 5b literal expression belief, also believe that Jesus was actually in heaven before he became a human being, from a glorified state, even as God Almighty himself. And some also believe, he became into a humble human state as in some type of transformation or of an incarnation. As a god-man dual natured creature! They use other scripture for their support although they choose to mischaracterize these aswell. For example, they use Philippians 2:7 to say that Jesus or even his Father came down from heaven and incarnated himself into a humble human being. This scripture is only referring to Jesus has having his Father’s spirit and mind indwelt in him. Jesus thus sacrificed and yielded his own human spirit and will, and physical body, over to his Father, nothing more. Nothing is said or meant to mean Jesus or his Father coming down for heaven and intentionally laying aside his so-called previous immortality or divine nature. Jesus was an example to all of his followers of a human servant for his God and Father.
The Father says he gave Yahshua immortality after his death on the cross and not or never before that time, since his birth (see John 5:26 Jesus never had eternal life before he was born. It was granted (as part of the plan) by the Father in his human life).
The Father had no actual created Son, except in his mind, before his spirit was created and born in Bethlehem. God never said he had a Son in scripture until that time. Yes he did point to his Son in the OT is a few areas under other labels and expressions. The Father gave his Son life in himself or immortality after his resurrection; meaning Jesus was called the Son of God only since his birth as a human being because he never existed before in any type of reality or previous life.
2. Now if Jesus was actually saying, give me my immortality and even my own divine nature back, then why in verse 5 did Jesus not say, “before when I was” or “came down from heaven,” instead of “before the world was created” as it is in verse 5? These two expressions or figurative idioms would be more accurate and current although it would still not be true since Jesus was not speaking of a previous life of his own. He was referring to the Father’s plan of a previous ancient time, he planned for his Son and even for his followers and believers of today. This plan did not just include his Son, it included a modern-day true believer as well.
Incidentally, “came down from heaven” is an idiom and expression for Jesus to say he was born of God his Father who actually came down from heaven in Spirit to create him in the womb of Mary. This though is for another place and discussion.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I do not think I know what Jesus said
I know what he said.
before Abraham was (came to be) I am (I existed and still exist)
the word was is from the greek ginomai - which means to become, to take place to be born..
it literally says before abraham was BORN, I ALWAYS EXISTED
Nice try EG, although I will agree he existed in the mind, his word, in his plans of his Father for our redemption for sure; as both F(fathers) would agree, both Abraham, as he was quoted as believing this in verse 56, and the Father God.
Do you honestly think or believe that Abraham thought Jesus existed or was living before him? He and no Hebrew would think this way, and I agree with them.
The langauge, its construction and their cultural meanings are all too important in understanding scripture.
As John the Baptist once said,
“‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me”? (John 1:30)
This does not mean that Jesus existed before John (despite it being translated that way in some English Bible versions). Jesus was, in fact, conceived six months after John.
It means that Jesus ranks above John, not in time but by right of birth, to exist in the first place. The Greek word translated “before” can mean either “before in time” or “superior in rank”. Clearly, it is the second of these meanings which is intended here. The verse is saying that Jesus holds his superior rank, not by right of prior existence, but because he was born to it as Son of God.
And you know, the latter paragraphs concerning John 1:30 were from another source that I added to not show any bias.
And consider that the same writer wrote both verses under study here, in John 1 and 8. This style and thought by the same author must be considered very important for our understanding of scripture!
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
He did nto say this
He said before abraham was born, I am..
Did abraham need to think this?
lol. ok. if you say so.The langauge, its construction and their cultural meanings are all too important in understanding scripture.
As John the Baptist once said,
“‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me”? (John 1:30)
This does not mean that Jesus existed before John (despite it being translated that way in some English Bible versions). Jesus was, in fact, conceived six months after John.
It means that Jesus ranks above John, not in time but by right of birth, to exist in the first place. The Greek word translated “before” can mean either “before in time” or “superior in rank”. Clearly, it is the second of these meanings which is intended here. The verse is saying that Jesus holds his superior rank, not by right of prior existence, but because he was born to it as Son of God.
And you know, the latter paragraphs concerning John 1:30 were from another source that I added to not show any bias.
And consider that the same writer wrote both verses under study here, in John 1 and 8. This style and thought by the same author must be considered very important for our understanding of scripture!
I will take Jesus at his word..
God is the God of the Anointed One (who is Jesus). Looks like you are the victim of bad doctrine and indoctrination as you keep pushing for what is anti-Scriptural. The only God is Jesus' God as Hebrews 1:9 states.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
In quoting Exodus 3:13-15, many English translations do not render it correctly, especially with a trinitarians bias, which all English translations picked up.
In the Complete Tanakh we see the Jewish rendering of the divine name……and it is not just “I AM” but has the broader meaning of “I will be”.
13 And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:
14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"
ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:
15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.
טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:
Exodus 3:13-15 Jewish Tanakh
Look at the way the divine name (יְהֹוָ֞ה) is translated in their rendering….”I will be what I will be” is a whole different meaning to the statement “I Am”.
The Jews already knew who their God was, as they had remained separated in their Egyptian captivity whilst surrounded by the false worship of the Egyptian gods for centuries. Yahweh was not telling them something they already knew, but his name had an important meaning for them at that time…..”I will be what I will be” meant that the God they knew, but who had been rather distant from them, would show them what he “will be” in their deliverance from the harsh slavery they had been enduring for so long. He raised up Moses to liberate them and take them to a Promised Land. His name indicated his intentions towards his people ….what he would become for them.
Moses was raised in Egypt as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, but had fled when he defended a Hebrew brother by killing his abuser. After 40 years, God was ready to use him to free his nation and fulfill his promises to Abraham.
To infer that Jesus’ statement in John 8:58 was a reference to Exodus 3:13-15, is a clever bit of translation bias, suggesting that Jesus must be God because he existed before Abraham…..that is not what Jesus said.
The son of God is his “only begotten”….”monogenes” means an only child, yet God has many “sons” in heaven. He even had a human “son” before Jesus was born. (Luke 3:38)
What makes this “son” so special? He was the first and only direct creation of his eternal Father. He had a beginning, whereas Yahweh did not. As the “Logos”, Jesus has always been his Father’s spokesman.…
Jesus was not “begotten” at his human birth, but at his creation. (Rev 3:14)
All things were then created through the agency of the son, who was at the Father’s side in the creation of everything else. (Proverbs 8:30-31; Colossians 1:15-17; John 1:2-3)
What Jesus said at John 8:58 is that “before Abraham existed, I existed” or “I have been”….
When you quoted John the Baptist here…
“‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me”? (John 1:30)
John was confirming that Jesus existed before him….John was born 6 months before Jesus, so how is that possible unless Jesus was “sent“ by the one he called “the only true God”. (John 17:3)As an immortal, God cannot die, but his created son could fulfill the role of redeemer because he could offer his human life for the redemption of the entire human race, descended from Adam. He did not need to be God to do that….all he needed to be was a sinless equivalent of Adam. “A life for a life”. That is what “atonement” means….”at-one-ment”…..”one for one”. “A sinless life for a sinless life”.
I certainly do know them. They absolutely deny Jesus God and Hell is everlasting. Michael is their savior. Jesus is the Christian Savior.
Another Kingdom Hall cheerleader!
So say that Jesus is THE Savior! Can you?
You said, "Jesus is my savior but not the Savior."
You should read your posts.
In our image..
Did you even read Hosea? I'll ask you again, Does your Bible explicitly identify Jesus as the servant of God or not?
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