Hellfire and brimstone has given way to eternal separation from God. - Why?

[WalkInLight]

Over the years I have noticed a shift away from the embarrassment of the hell doctrine.
It had always seemed like the "fly in the ointment" of Christianity to me.
But we had biblical evidence that it was sad, but true.

The solution was evangelism. We are in the business of "saving souls from hell." Err...
I mean "eternal separation from God." (whatever that means to you) ???

This task of world evangelism was completely overwhelming.
We had annual world missions conferences for fund raising.
We were sending and supporting missionaries at home and abroad.

Some were wanting to be good stewards of their giving by
demanding results, or channeling the funds toward "fruitful" ministries.
Which meant withdrawing support from any who seemed to not
measure up to their expectations. Made me wonder.

Here at home we were still expected to spread the good news.
But, an over-evangelized America was less than welcoming.
They hadn't forgotten the "hellfire and brimstone".

What's your take on all of this?



@Patrick1966 @Hillsage @Chadrho @FaithWillDo @Nancy @GRACE ambassador @quietthinker @Lambano

Everything comes down to what we actually are.
Unfortunately we are linear creatures who build our personalities on learnt behaviours as we grow which become fairly fixed by age 25.
Everything we experience is through our own minds and feelings, empathy replaying what we feel and think others are going through.

One problem with universalism is it projects that we have value to the Lord even unregenerated individuals who are broken dysfunctional individuals who hold themselves together by hiding their contradictions and foundations. A common experience of nervous breakdown is these contradictions working emotionally through their hearts.

The Lord calls this wheat and chaff. Sinners tend to be driven by emotional impulse and destructive behaviour that has no regard to others other than for their own benefit. It values nothing other than their emotional status and coping.

Jesus stands at a place where love is our life and basis of all that we do. Walking with Him is about resolving all our attitudes and focus on this principle and seeing others as they truly are, creatures loved and blessed by God and worthy of respect, no matter how lost they truly are. It is why the apostles blessed when cursed, said kind things when abused, who forgave others when unjustly treated.

If the truth we walk through the veil as we are, unless we walk this way, we will fall apart and be nothing but a heap of chaff.
In this world the lake of fire is a resolution to this failure, in one sense a release of confusion.

One massive reality check is the Lord is in no hurry to work it all out, but rather we walk at a shared pace, when we are ready.
I used to think it was a walk of ideas, but it is actually a walk of our hearts with the Lord and those around us.

As we change our perspectives shift which is confusing. But that is the walk of faith, to accept we can become like Him, which by its very nature is change, and is about finding new expressions and words.
God bless you

 

[MatthewG]

It's not separation. IMO
The Age of Restoration will be a public event. All eyes watching, all ears hearing. Each individual, one at a time. IMO

Are you asking about a person who claims they want to go to hell?
I imagine it this way...

Hell does not have to last for an eternity to get the message. Ten seconds would be enough.
Or, imagine a person in hell for one day brought out and restored and then asked if they want to go back.
What would be the estimated percentages on return visit requests. Probably zero interest in returning.

With that in mind, what sort of God is the church asking us to believe in? I don't buy it. I know better.

UR is better.

@St. SteVen (edited),

As i stated, all we have is the word to go on, ill stick by it, cause … it seems to be to be truth, but you have to have some faith to believe it and consider all the legalities of (literal, figurative, spiritual)

Im glad to know my beliefs dont line up with universalism though, because it seems that the view would have to reject some of the bible.

(im not glad as a smirk at your own beliefs - im glad because now I know it is true that i dont line up with that … what do you call it? A viewpoint or doctrine? UR?)

However thank God that doesnt mean cause we differ in our beliefs, that God loves you more or me more but both equally, and he loves the unjust always calling out to them.

Thank you Steven, now that me and you personally went through these views, there is no more point now.

Thank you thank you thank you for reassuring me.

Praise be to Yahava, and Yeshua.

 

[St. SteVen]

Lol at folks here cautioning you about what you say about God while they claim that Jesus is unforgiving, sadistic, monster that, by comparison, makes Hitler look like a humanitarian

So true.

Or the ones that say God is enough of a gentleman to not force your will
to accept him, but then say he will torment you for all eternity if you don't accept.
As if that's a choice. More like extortion by a "gentleman".

 

[MatthewG]

@WalkInLight

Some you shared simply just reminds me, as human beings we can think what we want, but when subjected to what the bible says there is much to consider from the wisdom that is share, while there are (literal, figurative, and spiritual principles founded in), we cant rely on just our own thoughts and thinking, its best to rely on the mind of christ, and if one desires to learn truth they will seek it out; even in the face of their own reality or what they may desire. Jesus said God is spirit, and those who worship him will worship him in spirit and true and the lake of fire is part of Johns revelation of Jesus, who is the light of mankind and just as in the beginning the kingdom does seem to resemble light separated from darkness.

Just wanted to share, thank you,
Matthew

 

[St. SteVen]

One problem with universalism is it projects that we have value to the Lord even unregenerated individuals who are broken dysfunctional individuals who hold themselves together by hiding their contradictions and foundations. A common experience of nervous breakdown is these contradictions working emotionally through their hearts.

Thanks for your post.
Do you have a response to the topic title question?

Hellfire and brimstone has given way to eternal separation from God. - Why? ​

​

 

[St. SteVen]

Thank you Steven, now that me and you personally went through these views, there is no more point now.

Thank you thank you thank you for reassuring me.

Always glad to help when I can.

 

[Patrick1966]

I don't "think" much of mindless people.

Leave me out of this.

 

[St. SteVen]

Leave me out of this.

Nevermind.

 

[FaithWillDo]

As I said, Eschatology is not my strength. Maybe @FaithWillDo can help us out here?

But I understand the fire to be curative, rather than punitive.
It burns "wood hay and stubble", figuratively speaking.

Dear St.SteVen,

MatthewG asked you:
Therefore does the Lake of Fire - not hold something of value that is light and the more closer you come to the light does it not hurt?

No, the Lake of Fire is only punitive and destructive. It contains only darkness.

The Day of the Lord presented in the scripture below applies to the Lake of Fire in the final age. The "people come, great and strong" is referring the Elect who will reign with Christ.

Joel 2:1 Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; For the day of the LORD is coming, For it is at hand: 2 A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains. A people come, great and strong, The like of whom has never been; Nor will there ever be any such after them, Even for many successive generations.

The Lake of Fire is not a "place" as you are understanding it. The Lake of Fire is a spiritual symbol which represents the judgment of the Law which Christ will administer upon sinful mankind. And since all mankind is "condemned already" (John 3:18), all mankind will be destroyed by the Lake of Fire.

Since the Elect are saved prior to judgment coming to them, they will not experience any "wrath" during their time of judgment. Only the Elect believer's worsened carnal nature (Great Harlot w/devils) will be cast into the Lake of Fire for destruction.

Note: Please see my post #18 in the thread entitled "Jacob God loved, Esau God hated". It is in the Bible Study Forum. It will teach why only the carnal nature of mankind will be destroyed.

When the Elect believer's judgment begins, the new child of God will have already been born and gathered to dwell with Christ in heaven. When judgment starts, the child of God (the Bride) and Christ will ride white horses over the believer's own judgment. These events are all spiritual and they happen within the believer. Revelation chapter 19 teaches this truth.

However, for the "lost" of the final age, they themselves will be cast into the Lake of Fire for destruction. They will experience wrath during their judgment in the Lake of Fire. But before they perish, Christ will have mercy upon them (Mat 23:23). At at time, Christ will give the "lost" the Early and Latter Rain which will cause the birth of a new child of God. The new child of God will then be immediately gathered to heaven. Judgment will then continue in the Lake of Fire upon the person's carnal nature until it is destroyed.

St.SteVen said:
But I understand the fire to be curative, rather than punitive.
It burns "wood hay and stubble", figuratively speaking.

The Lake of Fire is not curative, it is totally punitive and destructive.

Here is what you are missing in your understanding and it applies to only the Elect's time of judgment:

The Day of the Lord (Judgment) has TWO parts.

1). The Judgment of the Man of Sin (spirit of anti-Christ) and the Great Harlot (worsened carnal nature).

2). The Judgment of the Old Man (carnal mind).

PART 1: The judgment of the Man of Sin and the Great Harlot occurs quickly (in "one hour") and it takes place symbolically in the Lake of Fire. In the Lake of Fire, the believer's "worsened carnal nature" (includes the spirit of anti-Christ) will be destroyed.

Judgment in the Lake of Fire happened to the Jewish Elect on the Day of Pentecost when they were "converted". As I said, it is a very quick process. The new spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) is given to the believer and the old carnal spiritual nature is removed and destroyed.

PART 2: After the believer is converted, they will still have a carnal mind (symbolized by the Old Man) with all its "wood, hay and stubble" which must be removed. During this time of judgment, the carnal mind will be transformed into the Mind of Christ.

To remove the wood, hay and stubble, Christ will chastise the believer through "trials". As the wood, hay and stubble are removed, the believer will "walk by the Spirit" more and more.

This verse applies:

John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

John the Baptist is a "type" for the Old Man (carnal mind). As Christ judges the Old Man, he will slowly decrease within the believer. As this occurs, Christ within the believer will increase.

This verse also applies to this chastising judgment:

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the (New) earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

The "earth" is a symbol for mankind's spiritual nature. The Old Earth is carnal and is governed by the flesh. The New Earth is spiritual and is governed by the Holy Spirit. When the judgment of Christ comes from the New Earth, the believer will learn righteousness (Christ will increase).

The scripture below teaches both parts of a person's judgment:

Rev 19:20 (PART 1) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 (PART 2) And the rest (carnal thoughts and beliefs of the carnal mind) were slain with the SWORD of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth (truth of God): and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Joe

@MatthewG @Patrick1966

 

[Patrick1966]

Dear St.SteVen,

MatthewG asked you:
Therefore does the Lake of Fire - not hold something of value that is light and the more closer you come to the light does it not hurt?

No, the Lake of Fire is only punitive and destructive. It contains only darkness.

The Day of the Lord presented in the scripture below applies to the Lake of Fire in the final age. The "people come, great and strong" is referring the Elect who will reign with Christ.

Joel 2:1 Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; For the day of the LORD is coming, For it is at hand: 2 A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains. A people come, great and strong, The like of whom has never been; Nor will there ever be any such after them, Even for many successive generations.

The Lake of Fire is not a "place" as you are understanding it. The Lake of Fire is a spiritual symbol which represents the judgment of the Law which Christ will administer upon sinful mankind. And since all mankind is "condemned already" (John 3:18), all mankind will be destroyed by the Lake of Fire.

Since the Elect are saved prior to judgment coming to them, they will not experience any "wrath" during their time of judgment. Only the Elect believer's worsened carnal nature (Great Harlot w/devils) will be cast into the Lake of Fire for destruction.

Note: Please see my post #18 in the thread entitled "Jacob God loved, Esau God hated". It is in the Bible Study Forum. It will teach why only the carnal nature of mankind will be destroyed.

When the Elect believer's judgment begins, the new child of God will have already been born and gathered to dwell with Christ in heaven. When judgment starts, the child of God (the Bride) and Christ will ride white horses over the believer's own judgment. These events are all spiritual and they happen within the believer. Revelation chapter 19 teaches this truth.

However, for the "lost" of the final age, they themselves will be cast into the Lake of Fire for destruction. They will experience wrath during their judgment in the Lake of Fire. But before they perish, Christ will have mercy upon them (Mat 23:23). At at time, Christ will give the "lost" the Early and Latter Rain which will cause the birth of a new child of God. The new child of God will then be immediately gathered to heaven. Judgment will then continue in the Lake of Fire upon the person's carnal nature until it is destroyed.

St.SteVen said:
But I understand the fire to be curative, rather than punitive.
It burns "wood hay and stubble", figuratively speaking.

The Lake of Fire is not curative, it is totally punitive and destructive.

Here is what you are missing in your understanding and it applies to only the Elect's time of judgment:

The Day of the Lord (Judgment) has TWO parts.

1). The Judgment of the Man of Sin (spirit of anti-Christ) and the Great Harlot (worsened carnal nature).

2). The Judgment of the Old Man (carnal mind).

PART 1: The judgment of the Man of Sin and the Great Harlot occurs quickly (in "one hour") and it takes place symbolically in the Lake of Fire. In the Lake of Fire, the believer's "worsened carnal nature" (includes the spirit of anti-Christ) will be destroyed.

Judgment in the Lake of Fire happened to the Jewish Elect on the Day of Pentecost when they were "converted". As I said, it is a very quick process. The new spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) is given to the believer and the old carnal spiritual nature is removed and destroyed.

PART 2: After the believer is converted, they will still have a carnal mind (symbolized by the Old Man) with all its "wood, hay and stubble" which must be removed. During this time of judgment, the carnal mind will be transformed into the Mind of Christ.

To remove the wood, hay and stubble, Christ will chastise the believer through "trials". As the wood, hay and stubble are removed, the believer will "walk by the Spirit" more and more.

This verse applies:

John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

John the Baptist is a "type" for the Old Man (carnal mind). As Christ judges the Old Man, he will slowly decrease within the believer. As this occurs, Christ within the believer will increase.

This verse also applies to this chastising judgment:

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the (New) earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

The "earth" is a symbol for mankind's spiritual nature. The Old Earth is carnal and is governed by the flesh. The New Earth is spiritual and is governed by the Holy Spirit. When the judgment of Christ comes from the New Earth, the believer will learn righteousness (Christ will increase).

The scripture below teaches both parts of a person's judgment:

Rev 19:20 (PART 1) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 (PART 2) And the rest (carnal thoughts and beliefs of the carnal mind) were slain with the SWORD of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth (truth of God): and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Joe

@MatthewG @Patrick1966

Thanks Joe. Your insights are fascinating. It sounds as though one needs help from the Holy Spirit to tie together all of the words of the Bible.

And not to hijack this thread but I noticed that you voted "other" in my poll. So please tell us what is your belief with regard to the fate of those sent to the Lake of Fire. Thanks.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Thanks Joe. Your insights are fascinating. It sounds as though one needs help from the Holy Spirit to tie together all of the words of the Bible.

And not to hijack this thread but I noticed that you voted "other" in my poll. So please tell us what is your belief with regard to the fate of those sent to the Lake of Fire. Thanks.

Dear Patrick1966,
I'm just being picky I guess. I voted "other" because number three was not exactly right. Number three says "they are rehabilitated in the LOF and then go to Heaven".

As I explained in my post above, the LOF is punitive and destructive. Mankind cannot be rehabilitated. We must be "born again" to continue living. Any rehabilitation which occurs (the carnal mind being transformed into the Mind of Christ) is done in "heaven" and not in the LOF.

Concerning the "lost" in the LOF, before they perish, Christ will have mercy upon them and will give them the Holy Spirit. With the Spirit within them, a new child of God will be born. The child of God will then be symbolically gathered to heaven since the child has never sinned. However, the carnal nature (woman) of the person will continue until it is destroyed because the "woman" is the one in transgression.

Joe

 

[Patrick1966]

Dear Patrick1966,
I'm just be picky I guess. I voted "other" because number three was not exactly right. Number three says "they are rehabilitated in the LOF and then go to Heaven".

As I explained in my post above, the LOF is punitive and destructive. Mankind cannot be rehabilitated. We must be "born again" to continue living. Any rehabilitation which occurs (the carnal mind being transformed into the Mind of Christ) is done in "heaven" and not in the LOF.

Concerning the "lost" in the LOF, before they perish, Christ will have mercy upon them and will give them the Holy Spirit. With the Spirit within them, a new child of God will be born. The child of God will then be symbolically gathered to heaven since the child has never sinned. However, the carnal nature (woman) of the person will continue until it is destroyed because the "woman" is the one in transgression.

Joe

Ok. Thanks Joe.

 

[St. SteVen]

Since the Elect are saved prior to judgment coming to them, they will not experience any "wrath" during their time of judgment. Only the Elect believer's worsened carnal nature (Great Harlot w/devils) will be cast into the Lake of Fire for destruction.

Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful reply.

Separating the Elect from judgment creates an issue, as does predestination in general.

We know that only those that God draws by his Spirit can come to him.
The dark side of predestination in this light is that EVERYONE is either predestined to life or death.
To not be predestined as the Elect means to be predestined to eternal separation from God. (hell)
I am speaking in the terms of the institutional church. I don't believe this to be the case.

What is your take on this problem? Why would God choose who to save and who to damn?

As a Christian Universalist, I understand that all of humankind are saved already, and will be redeemed.
Some are called to a relationship with God in this lifetime, and others will find this relationship in the afterlife.
Specifically in the Age of Restoration.

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful reply.

Separating the Elect from judgment creates an issue, as does predestination in general.

We know that only those that God draws by his Spirit can come to him.
The dark side of predestination in this light is that EVERYONE is either predestined to life or death.
To not be predestined as the Elect means to be predestined to eternal separation from God. (hell)
I am speaking in the terms of the institutional church. I don't believe this to be the case.

What is your take on this problem? Why would God choose who to save and who to damn?

As a Christian Universalist, I understand that all of humankind are saved already, and will be redeemed.
Some are called to a relationship with God in this lifetime, and others will find this relationship in the afterlife.
Specifically in the Age of Restoration.

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Dear St.SteVen,

You said:
Separating the Elect from judgment creates an issue...

The Elect are not separated from judgment. To be converted, everyone must be baptized by fire. The Elect will experience this baptism.

However, the Elect's judgment is not done in wrath.

1Thes 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

The Elect's judgment is administered by a loving Father who chastises His children.

Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

But since the "lost" of the final age are not children of God when judgment arrives for them, they themselves will be cast into the Lake of Fire where God's wrath is poured out in accordance with the Law. However, before they perish, Christ will give them a new birth and will gather the new child of God to heaven. From that moment on, the person will no longer experience wrath.

However, to complete their conversion, their carnal nature will remain in the Lake of Fire to be destroyed. This is where the Elect's carnal nature was destroyed but since the Elect were made into a child of God prior to their judgment arriving, Christ removed their carnal nature from within them and cast it into the Lake of Fire for destruction. Neither the "lost" of the final age or the Elect of this age will experience any wrath when their carnal nature is destroyed. Why? Because the person will be "born again" prior to their carnal nature's destruction.

If Christ were to destroy a person's spiritual nature prior to them receiving a new one, they would be "perished".

Also, remember what I have described above are spiritual events and they happen within a person.

Does this make any sense to you?

You said:
....as does predestination in general.

We know that only those that God draws by his Spirit can come to him.
The dark side of predestination in this light is that EVERYONE is either predestined to life or death.
To not be predestined as the Elect means to be predestined to eternal separation from God. (hell)
I am speaking in the terms of the institutional church. I don't believe this to be the case.

What is your take on this problem? Why would God choose who to save and who to damn?

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

God chooses some vessels for honor and some for dishonor because it suits His purposes for this creation. It is really that simple.

The term "predestination" applies only to the "order" of mankind's salvation. Those who are "predestinated" are predestinated to be heirs of Abraham who will receive life during the ages. Predestination has nothing to do with whether or not Christ will save all mankind.

But since the apostate church does not believe Christ will save all mankind, and because they falsely believe that the "offer" of salvation only applies to this present age, they DO HAVE A PROBLEM with predestination. Also, predestination conflicts with their belief in "free will".

I have discussed this issue with members of the apostate church before and it is amazing how they twist and deny what scripture says about it. I have found that most will say that because of God's foreknowledge, He knew in advance who would (by their free will) choose Christ and be saved. And because God knew in advance, God says that they were predestinated for salvation and that they were "chosen". But this argument makes no sense at all. With that argument, the apostate believer is saying that since God knew in advance who would accept Christ, God, in turn, says that He chose them.

Here is the truth about God's foreknowledge:

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God's foreknowledge comes from the certainty of what He says He will do, will actually happen. God then works all things to make His Word not come back to Him void. Scripture never says that God is a fortuneteller who looks into the future and sees how things turn out. Scripture says that God makes everything turn out just as He said beforehand. This is where God's "foreknowledge" comes from.

Joe

 

[quietthinker]

Hellfire and brimstone has given way to eternal separation from God. - Why?​

more carnage on CB if something hadn't given way :)

 

[Grailhunter]

2nd Timothy 4:3-4
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

1st Timothy 6:3-4
If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a sick craving for controversial questions and disputes about words, from which come envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, and constant friction between people of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.

2nd Peter 2:1-3
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

Ephesians 4:14
So that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.

In this new age we see all of this. Options of how God aught to be, what He should be. God is too good and merciful to burn people in Hell for eternality. Christ was just a man with good ideas. The problem with these heresies is that it makes God a liar and the scriptures false.

A lot of people that call themselves Christian mix Christianity with the occult and drugs and even the cosmic….Yeshua was a UFO pilot. Yeshua was not married so He was homosexual. All this was foretold and it came true. It is one thing for the Holy Spirit to teach us a higher set of morals and another to redefine the scriptures. We cannot see Satan but we can see his footprints. What kind of people do this? What is their lifestyle? Most of the people that advocate these ideas are democrats, if they have any political affiliation. And there is a whole lot of evil intent with these people. Don’t fall for it.

The Johnny Appleseed of Truth

 

[St. SteVen]

God chooses some vessels for honor and some for dishonor because it suits His purposes for this creation. It is really that simple.

How would you feel if you found out that you were on the wrong side of the predestination fence when it was too late to do anything about it?

There would probably be a crowd that were just as dismayed as I imagine you would be.
Some saying "Jesus who?" Never heard of him. "Eternal what? ... Why?"

 

[St. SteVen]

Here is the truth about God's foreknowledge:

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Doesn't this make our loving God a cosmic tyrant?

 

[FaithWillDo]

How would you feel if you found out that you were on the wrong side of the predestination fence when it was too late to do anything about it?

There would probably be a crowd that were just as dismayed as I imagine you would be.
Some saying "Jesus who?" Never heard of him. "Eternal what? ... Why?"

Dear St.SteVen,

You asked:
How would you feel if you found out that you were on the wrong side of the predestination fence when it was too late to do anything about it?

I would be in torment and would have weeping and gnashing of teeth just as scripture teaches.

Also, mankind has no ability "to do anything about it" and we never have. To believe that we have an ability to do something about our own salvation only proves that we believe our salvation comes from our own "works". This belief in "works" is why a called out believer is not under the New Covenant and is why they are not saved. As a result, they will remain under the Law just as the unbelievers are. When their time of judgment arrives, they will receive their portion with the unbelievers in the Lake of Fire (judgment by the Law).

Non-Elect believers presently believe that they are saved. They will continue in this false belief until they die. But after they are resurrected and have appeared before the White Throne, they will finally know the truth:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work lawlessness.

Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

When Christ rejects an apostate believer at the White Throne, they will have "weeping and gnashing of teeth" because they believe that they are now going to be tormented in literal fire for all eternity (or be killed). But their understanding of Christ is wrong. Christ is not the "hard man" as they have been led to believe:

Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. 26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. 28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. 29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

You said:
There would probably be a crowd that were just as dismayed as I imagine you would be. Some saying "Jesus who?" Never heard of him. "Eternal what? ... Why?"

Judgment in the Lake of Fire is tailored to the sins that a person commits. Some will receive only a few "stripes", whereas others will receive many:

Luke 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not (an unbeliever), and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

A child will not receive any stripes but a fallen away believer will receive many. But the literal fire and brimstone that they fear will never come. Then after they have received the "stripes" that the Law requires (paid the last penny), Christ will come to them before they perish and show them mercy. It is at this time that Christ will graciously give them the free gift of the Holy Spirit that He earlier gave to the Elect. After the last person is saved, God will be "all in all" and the ages will come to an end.

Joe

 

[St. SteVen]

Also, mankind has no ability "to do anything about it" and we never have. To believe that we have an ability to do something about our own salvation only proves that we believe our salvation comes from our own "works".

We agree on this point. But... then you write this...

This belief in "works" is why a called out believer is not under the New Covenant and is why they are not saved. As a result, they will remain under the Law just as the unbelievers are. When their time of judgment arrives, they will receive their portion with the unbelievers in the Lake of Fire (judgment by the Law).

The law?
The old covenant law?

Non-Elect believers presently believe that they are saved. They will continue in this false belief until they die. But after they are resurrected and have appeared before the White Throne, they will finally know the truth:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work lawlessness.

Non-Elect believers? Wow.
And the law thing again?
Not sure where you are coming from. Sabbatarianism?

A child will not receive any stripes but a fallen away believer will receive many.

Stripes? Like the lines on meat that comes off a BBQ grill?