Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?

[1stCenturyLady]

Then you are decieved.

thats not me that said so. John did

If we (he included himself) say we are (present tense) without sin, we deceive ourselves and there is no truth in us.

EG, you are reading it with the common western mindset. But John was Hebrew and wrote with an EASTERN style. He repeats the concept in chapter two

1 John 2
4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

It is not what a person says that is important, but what he does. Look at verse 7. THAT is a Christian because they are walking in the light. Verses 6, 8, and 10 all use the key word - say. They are all lying, because they are all in darkness. I'm not in darkness. I walk in the Light and abide In Christ where I cannot sin because Satan cannot influence me. 1 John 3:8-9

EG, also there is a Hebrew writing style John is using in chapter one called contrasts. Every other passage is in contrast to the one before. This one starts with GOD IS LIGHT. And is contrasted with a verse on DARKNESS of someone lying. So 5, 7 and 9 are all LIGHT. And 6, 8 and 10 are all unsaved. (verse 9 is how to become saved).

EG, when someone tries to set me us and ask if I am sinless, I know what their response is going to be. 100% of the time it is 1 John 1:8 ROFL! It is someone who hasn't read the rest of the epistle. LOL

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Meaning what exactly?

John 3:
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”


In other words, you must REPENT and WANT to no longer sin and be like Christ, but know you haven't been able to. So you repent, and Jesus takes away the sin and Satan's influence from your nature and puts His own Spirit inside you to live through you. That is born of the Spirit. All desire to sin is gone.

To stay that way you must ABIDE IN CHRIST AND HE IN YOU. That is for both types of sin (sins unto death 1 John 3:4,24 and sins not unto death immature fruit, John 15:1-4.

Once you have the Spirit NEVER QUENCH HIM.

The normal person?

Don’t you mean the unregenerate still have that sin nature?

Who knows if God will birth them in the Spirit?

What happens to those who aren’t Born Again?

1 Corinthians 2:9-16
9 But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

He was speaking to you?

Where have you explained that you never sin?

Imo, you haven’t?

Over the years...

How is that ,what you say here answering his question about sin?

I've been born of God since 1977. I've posted my testimony before.

 

[WalkInLight]

Many people know about God, but less actually are converted and follow God. As Christ did at Gethsemane we must set aside all and follow Gods will. Jesus came across someone who asked this same question:

Matthew 19:16-17
"16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.'

This young ruler obviously lived “a good life.” He’d convinced himself that he had “made it” in both before others and in his spiritual life. Yet, for all that, he sensed something was missing.

Was Jesus telling the rich young ruler to do something meritorious when He told him to keep the commandments? Obviously not, for salvation is "not of works, lest any man should boast." But was Jesus telling this man plainly what the condition of salvation was? If we will enter into eternal life, what is necessary?

What was Christ saying to the rich young ruler. Was obedience a condition or a requirement that we must meet before God can save us? If we look, Christ wanted more than obedience, Christ was showing that true obedience includes our outward deeds, but it is not just our outward deeds. True obedience is both the outward deed and the inner motive that prompts the deed.

We see Christ get to this with the rich young ruler:
Matthew 19:20-22
"20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions."

In order to be saved a person must be converted, and conversion is what makes true obedience possible. Unconverted people cannot truly obey God, they can "talk" about God, but not fully "walk" with Him. The condition or the basis for our salvation is faith. The result of our salvation is obedience. Those who aren't really converted and will be lost at the end, can’t obey. The truly converted or saved at the end, will show the fruits of the Spirit..

Ephesians 5:8-10 King James Version (KJV)
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

Do His followers love Him?

They listen to Him and follow. It is an emotional and spiritual bond.
And this bond is broken by sin and evil, when the heart goes hard and will no longer listen.

It is strange but when the storms come, Jesus's reality in our lives is the rock, our behaviour reflects His love working out to others.
Sin destroys people with pride, hurt, blame, anger, lashing out, and broken relationships with angry words.

But the Holy Spirit changes us, and teaches us a way through, so fear goes and we find we are channels of His love to others.
Because sanctification is a work of transformation, we need to follow to be in communion.

In foolishness some call this earning salvation, rather this is the eternal walk with our Lord.
So easily people dismiss the words of Jesus to us, in every situation, but want something more profound and special not seeing the words are to every situation and eternally profound. Those who condemn this walk do not know the walk of the straight path or of the reality of working love through our emotional history.

Do I have a right to be hurt, feeling lonely, abandoned, depressed, betrayed and outside of everything I hold dear? Yes, but Jesus is standing there, waiting us to see Him and change our focus on His promise and His presence there, closer than a friend, a wife or husband, a father or mother, a son or daughter, our best friend. It does not change what we go through but changes 100% its affect on us. So evil is the world, it will destroy us with no regrets while Jesus weeps for the lost.

God bless you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

EG, you are reading it with the common western mindset. But John was Hebrew and wrote with an EASTERN style. He repeats the concept in chapter two

1 John 2
4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

It is not what a person says that is important, but what he does. Look at verse 7. THAT is a Christian because they are walking in the light. Verses 6, 8, and 10 all use the key word - say. They are all lying, because they are all in darkness. I'm not in darkness. I walk in the Light and abide In Christ where I cannot sin because Satan cannot influence me. 1 John 3:8-9

EG, also there is a Hebrew writing style John is using in chapter one called contrasts. Every other passage is in contrast to the one before. This one starts with GOD IS LIGHT. And is contrasted with a verse on DARKNESS of someone lying. So 5, 7 and 9 are all LIGHT. And 6, 8 and 10 are all unsaved. (verse 9 is how to become saved).

EG, when someone tries to set me us and ask if I am sinless, I know what their response is going to be. 100% of the time it is 1 John 1:8 ROFL! It is someone who hasn't read the rest of the epistle. LOL

Keeping his commands and never sinning are two different things

A babe in christ does not keep the commands as good as an adult in christ. Thats why they are growing.

 

[Ritajanice]

Keeping his commands and never sinning are two different things

A babe in christ does not keep the commands as good as an adult in christ. Thats why they are growing.

Amen!!!.

 

[brightfame52]

ritajanice

So, are you saying, that through the obedience of one ( Jesus)....many will be made righteous, Not all....is that what you are saying?

Yes only Gods elect shall be made righteous.

For as by one’s disobedience many were made sinners, that’s talking about Adam and Eve, ...the whole world inherited their sin, did it not?

Its talking about the elect

 

[L.A.M.B.]

@brightfame52
You are a 5 point if I'm not mistaken, correct?

 

[Keiw]

John 17 and Matthew 7 are two of my favorite chapters. John 15 also.

One reason I have assurance of salvation even though I believe the doctrine of OSAS is heresy is because I experienced the filling of the Holy Spirit and according to the OP DO obey God. He has written His laws on my conscience and I never go against my conscience. It is so easy, and that is all any of us have to do be be pleasing in God's sight. Not only that as in verse 22, all my prayers ARE answered. The most important thing we must do as Christians to keep ourselves is to ABIDE IN CHRIST, AND HE IN US. That is not just for major laws, but for maturing ALL the fruit of the Spirit.

There is also a warning for all those who believe the heresy of OSAS. But the real truth is written in the Word.


1 John 3:21-24
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

John 15:1-4
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He [a]takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

OSAS is false-- Jesus said--One must endure( living now in this satan ruled system doing his Fathers will over self) until their end to get saved.( Matt 10:22) And Exodus 32:33--If one sins against YHWH(Jehovah) their name can be removed from Gods book of life. Thus if ones teacher is saying-OSAS--RUN FROM THEM, they are blind guides who lack truth.

 

[Keiw]

Yes it is a contradiction, a denial of Rom 5:19, according to Rom 5:19 how were the many made righteous ?

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Also while you ponder that, how were the many made sinners according to the same verse ?

Yes the many who learn and obey.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Keeping his commands and never sinning are two different things

A babe in christ does not keep the commands as good as an adult in christ. Thats why they are growing.

You are right. The Ten Commandments are what I call the "bottom line." But God writes the deeper laws on our super-sensitized Spirit-empowered conscience. That is what I go by. I never disobey my conscience. Interestingly, that was a habit I seemed to have been born with. But when I was born again, I suddenly had more laws written on my conscience. There was a significant change in knowledge and spiritual perception.

What you are talking about are the fruit of the Spirit, and that's also what I'm talking about. 2 Peter 1:5-7 shows us the progressive path to perfection. And yes, we CAN become PERFECT in this lifetime, 2 Peter 1:10-11, but we MUST be born again of the Spirit. I went to church for 30 years before becoming born again of the Spirit. Not everyone who goes to church is saved.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

OSAS is false-- Jesus said--One must endure( living now in this satan ruled system doing his Fathers will over self) until their end to get saved.( Matt 10:22) And Exodus 32:33--If one sins against YHWH(Jehovah) their name can be removed from Gods book of life. Thus if ones teacher is saying-OSAS--RUN FROM THEM, they are blind guides who lack truth.

I agree that OSAS is false. And yes, we must endure to the end. But that doesn't mean that I have no assurance.

2 Peter 1:10-11
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

1 John 3:8-9; 21-24
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

I believe John and do not worry about the devil. Because I am filled with the Spirit, I have authority over the devil, and he cannot touch me. 1 John 5:18.

1 John 5:18
18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

This is why I practice sinlessness, and am working on perfection which is maturity in all the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Keiw]

I agree that OSAS is false. And yes, we must endure to the end. But that doesn't mean that I have no assurance.

2 Peter 1:10-11
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

1 John 3:8-9; 21-24
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

I believe John and do not worry about the devil. Because I am filled with the Spirit, I have authority over the devil, and he cannot touch me. 1 John 5:18.

1 John 5:18
18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

This is why I practice sinlessness, and am working on perfection which is maturity in all the fruit of the Spirit.

All sin. the wicked practice sin. Solomon lost to the devil. you think you are wiser? No wonder the bible teaches-beware if you think you are standing strong.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

All sin. the wicked practice sin. Solomon lost to the devil. you think you are wiser? No wonder the bible teaches-beware if you think you are standing strong.

No wonder you are having a problem with sin the way you think. Proverbs 23:5 As a man thinks in his heart, SO IS HE. Solomon didn't have the power of the blood of Jesus. I do. Do you? Study the Scriptures I showed in #591 and get them in your heart.

 

[Ritajanice]

You are right. The Ten Commandments are what I call the "bottom line." But God writes the deeper laws on our super-sensitized Spirit-empowered conscience. That is what I go by. I never disobey my conscience. Interestingly, that was a habit I seemed to have been born with. But when I was born again, I suddenly had more laws written on my conscience. There was a significant change in knowledge and spiritual perception.

Amen!!l.....I’ve had to learn and understand what conscience means, when I was Born Again...it was like my conscience was heightened...I didn’t understand it as a new Babe, I certainly understand it now.

What you are talking about are the fruit of the Spirit, and that's also what I'm talking about. 2 Peter 1:5-7 shows us the progressive path to perfection. And yes, we CAN become PERFECT in this lifetime, 2 Peter 1:10-11, but we MUST be born again of the Spirit. I went to church for 30 years before becoming born again of the Spirit. Not everyone who goes to church is saved.

I don’t believe we can reach perfection in this side of heaven....None will reach the “ Perfection “ of Jesus....only one like him ...there will never be another....imo/ belief.

Edit to add...can you tell who is Born Again @1stCenturyLady ?.....I certainly can’t.

 

[Ritajanice]

No wonder you are having a problem with sin the way you think. Proverbs 23:5 As a man thinks in his heart, SO IS HE. Solomon didn't have the power of the blood of Jesus. I do. Do you? Study the Scriptures I showed in #591 and get them in your heart.

It’s the renewing of our minds that we need to understand,@Behold helped me understand that....the battlefield can and is for a lot of believers the mind.....my mind is way beyond what it used to think, Praise God for that....,that enemy never stops trying to put me against God and my family...God brought my Son back into my life....we had a wonderful reunion!!....all part of God’s plan for my life...all that was taken from me as a unregenerate......is all coming back to me...it’s amazing watching God’s plans for my life unfold......it’s been a hard road ,he never promised us an easy ride....God’s will for our lives is “ Perfect” in every way..and it’s wonderful resting in that knowledge....

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Amen!!l.....I’ve had to learn and understand what conscience means, when I was Born Again...it was like my conscience was heightened...I didn’t understand it as a new Babe, I certainly understand it now.

I don’t believe we can reach perfection in this side of heaven....None will reach the “ Perfection “ of Jesus....only one like him ...there will never be another....imo/ belief.

Edit to add...can you tell who is Born Again @1stCenturyLady ?.....I certainly can’t.

Only one could I tell was not born again. She had been my best friend and she was brought into my life to introduce me to Spirit-filled Christians. Met her in 1976. But her lack of conscience has made me question if she is saved, or just religious.

 

[Ritajanice]

. But her lack of conscience has made me question if she is saved, or just religious.

I can relate to this....I also had a friend who said she was Born Again...she was exactly the same, her lack of conscience has also made me wonder....in fact I had to distance myself from her , that was what my conscience was telling me to do.....as we were disagreeing so much over things like, no sex before marriage, we are not to live with someone before marriage....I could post so much more, that would most definitely make you question if she was saved or not...it’s far to personal, so will leave it there.

@1stCenturyLady ..it was you who helped me understand this conscience....I always knew I was being led by God, but never put it down to our consciousness....I now see it 100% and completely understand you, so I thank God for showing me that and understanding what it meant, see how his timing is perfect...he gets “ HIS” word across to “ HIS” children in “ HIS” perfect timing.....God Bless Sis....always a pleasure discussing with you!..

 

[Ritajanice]

ritajanice



Yes only Gods elect shall be made righteous.



Its talking about the elect

Who are the elect?
I know God chose me, I understand he chooses those for his purpose and plan....the more I walk and mature in him, there can be no denying his Mighty power that’s at work....it’s “ Mind Blowing “ ..he could snuff us out within a heart beat....the first thing I remember when I was birthed in the Spirit....I feared God...I also mourned the death of Jesus in my Spirit....I knew in my heart/ spirit that Jesus died for my sin.....only God could deliver that word/ his word to my heart.....

I’m Born Again.....do you believe the 5 points of TULIP?

 

[brightfame52]

@brightfame52
You are a 5 point if I'm not mistaken, correct?

What do you mean by that specifically ?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

OSAS is false-- Jesus said--One must endure( living now in this satan ruled system doing his Fathers will over self) until their end to get saved.( Matt 10:22) And Exodus 32:33--If one sins against YHWH(Jehovah) their name can be removed from Gods book of life. Thus if ones teacher is saying-OSAS--RUN FROM THEM, they are blind guides who lack truth.

if OSAS is false. You are under law and not Grace.

Good luck!