Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
The Bible says that people can only believe in Jesus if God permits them to do so. Do you believe that God permits all to do so while they are living?
The Hell Doctrine - No doctrinal unity
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Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
So you believe that God created human beings and prevents some of them from coming to him and then tortures them forever?
God drowned everyone on Earth but 8, "making them an example". Should we drown people? lol He makes the rules for us, not Himself.
Anyone who believes in predestination can't avoid the obvious flip side to that coin.
If only SOME were predestined to life, EVERYON ELSE was predestined to death, or destruction.
And He doesn't have to ask your permission!
Romans 8
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
It's the Bible that upsets you, not me.
1 Samuel 2
6 "The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up.
7 The LORD makes poor and makes rich; He brings low and lifts up.
Daniel 4
35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, "What have You done?"
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I don't believe in eternal torture because I don't think the Bible teaches this. But if I discovered that the Bible actually taught eternal torture, I would believe it. I don't decide what to believe based on feelings.
It takes courage to believe the hard truths. The problem of evil is not for the faint of heart.
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
Well, you reject a mountain of scriptures that demonstrate that ALL people will be with God in the end. I guess we can agree to disagree.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Yes an altered version--Gods real bible with truth has his name in over 7000 spots. By his will. By satans will he had wicked men remove his name to mislead. Whose will do you support? He also created the great apostasy(2Thess 2:3) = the son of destruction( peredition) = Catholicism who translated errors in to fit false council teachings causing contradictions. Like the ones you believe over truth.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
PROVE that you're qualified to declare our Bibles errors and Satanic. That's exactly what Satan does. Your opinions do not overrule God of the Bible.
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They will certainly wish they were destroyed.
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.'
You make up your own personal Bible to please you. Universalism is Satanic and leading people to Hell. See above.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Oh the Bible teaches it, you must ignore a whole bunch of scriptures!
But it is fun to watch the tap dance as people try to explain away so many scriptures. Do you prefer any particular song for your tap dance.
Put on those dancing shoes!
Matthew 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”
Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
Matthew 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.
Matthew 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
Matthew 8:12 While the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Matthew 13:41-42 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:50 And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.
Matthew 23:33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?
Matthew 24:51 And will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Mark 9:43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
Mark 9:45 And if your foot offend you, cut if off: it is better to you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.
Mark 9:48 where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.
Luke 3:17 His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”
Luke 12:5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!
Luke 16:19-31 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
2nd Thessalonians 1:8-9 In flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
Jude 1:7 Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Revelation 14:10 He also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:12-15--- 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
Great post! Satan LOVES it when his messengers convince people there is no eternal Hell fire. He wants our company 'forever and ever'!
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
People want to do what they want to do without getting punished for it.
Discipline, morals, and ramifications are not the forté of this new generation.
Moral discipline is the consistent exercise of agency to choose what is right because it is right, even when it is hard. It rejects the self-absorbed lifestyle in favor of developing character worthy of respect and the emulation of Christ.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I am not ignoring the scriptures. I am reading them without adding to them. I tried responding to each of the verses you mentioned but the board wouldn't let me post. Let me summarize:
1. Eternal fire is eternal fire not eternal torture.
2. Eternal smoke is eternal smoke, not eternal torture.
3. Fire destroys, and whatever is thrown into a lake of fire is destroyed.
4. Fire consumes chaff, turning it into ash. Putting chaff into an eternal fire makes no difference.
5. Hades is not the Lake of Fire. In the end, those located in Hades are destroyed in the Lake of fire and Hades itself is also destroyed there.
6. John refers to the Lake of Fire as "the second death." If they are dead, they are not alive in order to experience torment.
I think your entire baseball team struck out at the plate.
Only one verse out of the verses you mentioned appears to speak about eternal torment. Revelation 20:10. Our understanding of this verse will depend on how we answer these two questions: 1) Who is being tortured, and 2) for how long?
If you are interested, I am willing to talk about that.
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