70 AD revisited

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, I see the problem. Since Daniel seems to locate the temple's destruction in week 70 and the destruction comes 40 years after the crucifixion, a gap is necessary to square the prophecy with reality.

which means the destruction is not in week 70. but between 69 and 70?

Here we have another interpretation choice.
Either
1) Daniel locates the temples' destruction in week 70, and there is a gap between week 69 and week 70 is necessary. Or,
2) Daniel doesn't actually locate the temple's destruction in week 70. Therefore, no gap is required.

number 1 does not make sense.

if number 2 is correct. then that means their must be a gap. Unless your thinking it is after the 70th week. in which case. why is it mentioned at all. I is not part of the 70 week time period of events. (including the GAP)

For the longest time, I had difficulty with Daniel 9:27 because I needed help understanding how to locate the temples' destruction in week 70 without a gap. After many years and much discussion, I examined the passage again to see if my conclusion was justified. Was I wrong to understand that the temple was to be destroyed during week 70? Maybe. But the idea of the Gap was very persistent in my thinking. I wasn't going to give up that idea quickly.

Nevertheless, the Gap Theory was like a pebble in my shoe: I couldn't eliminate it even though it made me uncomfortable. Other than the logical necessity of the Gap, I had no textual justification for the Gap. Gabriel needs to give us a verbal clue about the existence of a gap. But he doesn't do that. And that made me uncomfortable. Was I inserting an idea into the text that Gabriel didn't intend?

So I set about to understand Gabriel's prediction without assuming there was a gap. And I did that. And I can show you what I believe now, but before I do that, I need to say that I strongly believe in the inerrancy of the Bible (as I'm sure you do too.) And if Gabriel intended a Gap between weeks 69 and 70, I'm okay with that. I believe the scriptures no matter what they say. My primary concern is whether or not I have correctly understood what was being said. And if your interpretation is correct, I accept that.

I worked out an interpretation that accounted for all the facts, except the 40-year delay was a problem for me. Why the 40-year delay? One day I was sitting down for coffee with my Bible teacher friend, and he suggested something to me that made the entire account come together for me.

God could have destroyed the temple after Jesus' ascension if he chose to do that—no forensic reason to delay judgment, nothing to stop him. So why did he delay? Mercy. The delay of judgment is always a sign of God's patience and forbearance. God used the 40-year Gap to demonstrate his forbearance.

I think I want to stop at this point for your reaction, but I look forward to discussing your other thoughts also.

Talk soon.

I see what your saying, But prophecy, why does God use it? Does he not use it to prove to the world that he is the one true God. that he states things will happen sometimes thousands of years before they do?

Look at all the prophecies concerning the Jesus in his first advent, All of them literally came true to the point. If we look at daniel 9. The first 62 weeks happened exactly on time. so what happened should literally be taken also.

also. While yes, God could have completed ad 70 after Christ died. We have Jesus tell the disciples that the HS would come on them while they were in jerusalem. and that then they would be witnesses is Jerusalem.. then outward.

Acts 1:8
But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”


if Jerusalem was destroyed during the 70th week. and not 40 years later. non of these things would have occurred.

the other question is when did the 70th week begin.. At his birth, At his baptism, or when he entered jerusalem?

 

[CadyandZoe]

which means the destruction is not in week 70. but between 69 and 70?

number 1 does not make sense.

if number 2 is correct. then that means their must be a gap. Unless your thinking it is after the 70th week. in which case. why is it mentioned at all. I is not part of the 70 week time period of events. (including the GAP)

I see what your saying, But prophecy, why does God use it? Does he not use it to prove to the world that he is the one true God. that he states things will happen sometimes thousands of years before they do?

Look at all the prophecies concerning the Jesus in his first advent, All of them literally came true to the point. If we look at daniel 9. The first 62 weeks happened exactly on time. so what happened should literally be taken also.

also. While yes, God could have completed ad 70 after Christ died. We have Jesus tell the disciples that the HS would come on them while they were in jerusalem. and that then they would be witnesses is Jerusalem.. then outward.

Acts 1:8
But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”


if Jerusalem was destroyed during the 70th week. and not 40 years later. non of these things would have occurred.

the other question is when did the 70th week begin.. At his birth, At his baptism, or when he entered jerusalem?

Just to be clear, I believe the Gap Theory, places a gap between the end of week 69 and the beginning of week 70. But I could be wrong. Where is the destruction of the temple located, week 69, in the Gap, week 70, or after week 70?

 

[GRACE ambassador]

when did the 70th week begin.. At his birth, At his baptism, or when he entered jerusalem?

Interesting question - wasn't "at The Cross" = "Messiah was cut off"?

Then, "At That Time," The 'Testator Being Dead,' The New Testament Began?

If so, my view of "the gap" is:

( earthly ) Prophecy / covenants / law:

OT for Israel - up to The Cross - NT started with them [ being Prominent ], but,
a year later (Luke 13:6-9), they fell ( "cut down" ), meaning "Israel could not be
'a blessing to the world," So then God [ putting prophecy 'on hold' ] "Concluded
all in sin, in order To Have Mercy On all," Jew and Gentile are Now Equal...

prophecy = 69 weeks + 1 Year = 6 Years of the 70th week yet Future...

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From Things That Differ" (online)

( parenthetical gap ) being:

( ...God raised up "His ( Heavenly no covenant ) Grace apostle, Paul, Giving him
"The Hid In God's "Revelation Of The Mystery" For [ The Jew and Gentile
ethnicity disappearing Into God's New 'Creation' ] "the One New man"
The Body Of Christ, [ and, 70 AD destruction of temple? ]
Ending with God's Great GRACE Departure! )
( Heavenly ) Mystery

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

Last 6 Years of 70th week?:

... ( earthly ) prophecy NT resumes with Israel again Prominent, antichrist, Great
Tribulation, Christ Comes, Saves Israel, and then "they Will Be "a blessing to the
world," in the Millennium...

Sound about right?

Amen.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I worked out an interpretation that accounted for all the facts, except the 40-year delay was a problem for me. Why the 40-year delay? One day I was sitting down for coffee with my Bible teacher friend, and he suggested something to me that made the entire account come together for me.

God could have destroyed the temple after Jesus' ascension if he chose to do that—no forensic reason to delay judgment, nothing to stop him. So why did he delay? Mercy. The delay of judgment is always a sign of God's patience and forbearance. God used the 40-year Gap to demonstrate his forbearance.

I think I want to stop at this point for your reaction, but I look forward to discussing your other thoughts also.

Cady, I also suffered with the various options on Dan 9.27 for many, many years. I prayed and prayed--but held a number of theories in the meantime.

Today, I'm very satisfied with my present understanding, and it sounds somewhat like yours--correct me if I'm wrong? I don't any longer have any concern about the prediction of the fall of Jerusalem following the death of Christ and the end of the 70th Week by 40 years. I think, like you apparently do,

I see Jesus' prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem as being his statement about the *effect* of Jewish sin, which would result, eventually, in the destruction of Jerusalem *in that generation.* So a generation being at the longest about 40 years it appears that God had patience with the Jews, following the death of Jesus, before pouring out His wrath on them, which He had promised to do. It seems that the Gospel of Christ was being allowed to be promulgated among the Jews to give them one last chance to repent, and certainly some did repent.

So there is no problem with the 70th Week, which had to do with Jesus' redemption, being followed by 40 years in the prophesied destruction of Jerusalem. But a further annoying problem I had was with the pronouns in this prophecy, and I'm still not absolutely certain. I had held to a certain view, that Jesus made the covenant for the 70th Week, and put that idea by my brother, who is a biblical languages person.

But my brother could not be sure about the pronouns, and could not settle on any interpretation based on language alone. All I knew is that I could not rely on Jesus being the covenant-maker. My brother said that most often a pronoun goes back to the last mentioned person, and the last mentioned person was the person whose people destroy the city and the sanctuary!

Dan 9.The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’

So what the verse seems to say, on this basis, is that the Roman leader, whose people are to destroy the temple, would "confirm a covenant" with many for one Week." And I gathered that on this basis the Roman leader confirms God's covenant of Law by fulfilling the curse of the Law, which is the death or exile of the people who are living in disobedience.

The last bit that I've had long problems with is the last verse, "In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on it."

What does this mean, that the confirmation of the covenant to destroy the Jewish People will terminate animal sacrifices after 3.5 years? Well, part of the covenant of judgment upon Israel involved God coming to ignore the animal sacrifices the Jews were making in the temple. And this did happen when Christ was put to death, or "cut off," by the Romans. And this meant that God would no longer recognize the sacrifices made at the temple, keeping them in covenant relationship with God.

Some versions mention "the end that is decreed is poured out on him." But an alternative translation, equal to "him," is "it." And this made better sense to me, that the end is poured out on *it,* ie on the temple.

After all, this was all about the fate of the temple, which in Daniel's time had just been restored. Daniel may have said what Jesus' Disciples had said, "What magnificent buildings. They've finally been restored after many years of desolation!"

But the angel was telling Daniel that the temple, as wonderful as it was, would not last, and that Messiah would have to set a better standard for dividing people between faith and unbelief. Temple worship could be faked, and was an imperfect record of human righteousness, since it was managed by Jewish priests, who were flawed.

But Jesus' record was perfect, and was the eternal temple of God. And the old temple would have to fade into the past in order for Jesus to become the eternal standard of righteousness.

And so, this passage was all about the destruction of the temple after 490 Weeks of years, following a 40 years "Grace Period," allowing for the preaching of Jesus' Gospel. And that's why Jesus gave his Olivet Discourse, which was based squarely on this passage. The passage itself identifies Daniel as its source.

The desolating people of the ruler to come, the Romans, I believe, were the abominable source of Jerusalem's destruction. And as the passage in Daniel says, they were "set up at the temple," which Jesus interpreted as "armies standing around Jerusalem" (Luke 21). \

I truly hope this helps you, and that I have it right. If not, I'm back to the drawing board! ;) God bless...

 

[covenantee]

Go back and read my many posts. you will find them, I am not doing your work for you.

You want to be a slanderer. thats on you. Your sin will find you out

You can't find one.

Because there isn't one.

Because nothing can disprove Christ's New Will and Testament written in His Blood at Calvary.

Nothing.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Just to be clear, I believe the Gap Theory, places a gap between the end of week 69 and the beginning of week 70. But I could be wrong. Where is the destruction of the temple located, week 69, in the Gap, week 70, or after week 70?

Week 69 ended when jesus entered jerusalem as messiah the prince on a donkey.

the destruction happened 40 years later.

so if week 70 occurred after jesus entered.. then the destruction was after the 70 weeks.. whcih makes no sense

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You can't find one.

Because there isn't one.

Because nothing can disprove Christ's New Will and Testament written in His Blood at Calvary.

Nothing.

Your right.

That is salvation

but we are not talking about that. We are talking about Gods physical promise to a physical nation.

until you ignore that out.. you have nothing

 

[Timtofly]

Not a question of numbers Tim...., the point is all the wicked perish and all the righteous are saved. Only the saved get to realize the post second coming reality, just as Noah did when he survived the "all life" ending event.

Genesis 6:17
For behold, I, even I, will bring a flood of waters on the earth, to destroy all life under the heavens in which there is the breath and spirit of life; everything that is on the land shall die.

1. Matthew 24:38
   For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the [very] day when Noah entered the ark,
   
   
2. Matthew 24:39
   and they did not know or understand until the flood came "and swept them all away;" so will the coming of the Son of Man be [unexpected judgment].

2 Peter 2:5
and if He did not spare the ancient world, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought [the judgment of a flood upon the world of the ungodly;


70 ad was the beginning of the days of vengeance, with the destruction of the temple and the dispersion of jews to all nations as stated by Jesus himself.

It ends with the second coming and the Noahic event when only the righteous survive as stated by Jesus himself.

Read carefully...,

21 For at that time there will be a great tribulation (pressure, distress, oppression), such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will [again].

22 And if those days [of tribulation] had not been cut short, no human life would be saved; but for the sake of the elect (God’s chosen ones) those days will be shortened. 23 Then if anyone says to you [during the great tribulation], ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and they will provide great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect (God’s chosen ones). 25 Listen carefully, I have told you in advance.

It does not end at the Second Coming. It is just starting at the Second Coming.

Matthew 25:31-32

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

Pretty sure all nations means all 8 billion souls will face the truth. The church will have already left.

If that time is not cut short, then more will enter the LOF.

 

[Timtofly]

That future fire that will come down when Christ returns will not come down on all but 8 people in the world. Millions of Christians will be spared from that. So, no, in terms of the percentage of people it affects in the world, it will not be worse than the flood. You can't just go by total number of deaths to determine what is worse. They are many other ways to look at this.

I am not covenantee who demands numbers to make things sound more important.

I pointed out that you claim 8 billion people will walk through that fire you claim the church walks through.

 

[covenantee]

Your right.

That is salvation

but we are not talking about that. We are talking about Gods physical promise to a physical nation.

until you ignore that out.. you have nothing

You're the "we". I'm not.

Here the promises are again. Show us how they are limited to salvation.

And thanks for the guffaws.

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

There is none greater.

We see other new promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

If you deny that God has appointed His Son alone as heir of all things, you declare God to be a liar.

His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Such as:

Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Additional promissory clauses in...:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

...declare that we who are in Christ are joint heirs with Him.

But notice:

There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile...

Who is not in Christ.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, I see the problem. Since Daniel seems to locate the temple's destruction in week 70 and the destruction comes 40 years after the crucifixion, a gap is necessary to square the prophecy with reality.

Here we have another interpretation choice.
Either
1) Daniel locates the temples' destruction in week 70, and there is a gap between week 69 and week 70 is necessary. Or,
2) Daniel doesn't actually locate the temple's destruction in week 70. Therefore, no gap is required.

For the longest time, I had difficulty with Daniel 9:27 because I needed help understanding how to locate the temples' destruction in week 70 without a gap. After many years and much discussion, I examined the passage again to see if my conclusion was justified. Was I wrong to understand that the temple was to be destroyed during week 70? Maybe. But the idea of the Gap was very persistent in my thinking. I wasn't going to give up that idea quickly.

Nevertheless, the Gap Theory was like a pebble in my shoe: I couldn't eliminate it even though it made me uncomfortable. Other than the logical necessity of the Gap, I had no textual justification for the Gap. Gabriel needs to give us a verbal clue about the existence of a gap. But he doesn't do that. And that made me uncomfortable. Was I inserting an idea into the text that Gabriel didn't intend?

So I set about to understand Gabriel's prediction without assuming there was a gap. And I did that. And I can show you what I believe now, but before I do that, I need to say that I strongly believe in the inerrancy of the Bible (as I'm sure you do too.) And if Gabriel intended a Gap between weeks 69 and 70, I'm okay with that. I believe the scriptures no matter what they say. My primary concern is whether or not I have correctly understood what was being said. And if your interpretation is correct, I accept that.

I worked out an interpretation that accounted for all the facts, except the 40-year delay was a problem for me. Why the 40-year delay? One day I was sitting down for coffee with my Bible teacher friend, and he suggested something to me that made the entire account come together for me.

God could have destroyed the temple after Jesus' ascension if he chose to do that—no forensic reason to delay judgment, nothing to stop him. So why did he delay? Mercy. The delay of judgment is always a sign of God's patience and forbearance. God used the 40-year Gap to demonstrate his forbearance.

I think I want to stop at this point for your reaction, but I look forward to discussing your other thoughts also.

Talk soon.

The gap is right there in the word cut off. That is a gap, because the conclusion was not realized.


The first 3.5 years was Jesus on earth as Messiah. That ended with the Cross. The last 3.5 years will be Jesus on earth as King on a throne.

The "Messiah be cut off, but not for himself" is also not for Daniel's people. The conclusion of the 70th week is put on hold for the Gentiles.

That is what Romans 11 is for.

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid."

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

Daniel 9:24 happens when Jesus as King finishes the 70th week, and takes away their sin. Daniel 9:24 cannot happen until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. And that stops at the Second Coming, when the church is declared complete and removed from the earth. Then Matthew 25:31 happens.

The time of Jacob's trouble is the last 3.5 years of the 70th week, when Jesus is the Prince to come. Daniel 9:27 is the week of the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 10:6-7


"And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer (the 70 weeks are over): But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

The mystery is the promise of the 70 weeks, including the blindness in part of Daniel's people until Jesus as the Prince comes at the Second Coming. The 7th Trumpet is Jesus confirming the Covenant with the many. All nations are now under the authority of Jesus.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

So the 7th Trumpet sounds for one week. A set of 7 days. That is Daniel 9:27, not years but days. In the midst of this week we see the end put on hold once more. The finish of the 70 weeks is put on hold for another 42 months. This time it is for those beheaded, not harvested in the final harvest known as Jacob's trouble.

This time Satan is allowed to sit on the throne and that is the Abomination of Desolation. All of salvation will be taken away. The only means of Salvation is being beheaded to avoid the mark of this beast the AoD.

So there are two gaps in these verses in Daniel 9. One being Jesus and the last half of the 70th week put on hold for the fulness of the Gentiles. The Second being the celebration week of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. The second gap being the third woe given to mankind as a whole.

Then the final 3.5 days of the 70th week are when the 2 witnesses are killed and lay in the street of Jerusalem for 3.5 days. Those days are also when the 7 vials are poured out. Then the final end is the battle of Armageddon, and then the 70th week is over.

Then Daniel 9:24 will be the reality of the Day of the Lord. There will be no sin and decay caused by sin and death for 1,000 years. Isaiah 65 describes this time on earth. Israel will be the nation that rules the world. Jesus as King will rule over Jerusalem and Israel.

Yes, as Messiah, Jesus fulfilled those promises and did the physical part that needed to be done in the first century. But God had a plan for the rest of the world as well, which has been going on for the last 1993 years. Then at the Second Coming, Jesus will finish the week as King. Of course Amil and post trib proponents will deny this most vehemently. Many looking for Satan and his sidekicks instead of Jesus as king sitting on a throne to fulfill the Prince to come part. Then you have those stuck in the past still trying to justify the Romans removing Jerusalem and leaving it desolate.

Those who crucified Jesus were Daniel's people. This was the hook to bring about their own judgment and destruction as Gabriel promised. Which gave them the blindness in part for the fulness of the Gentiles. Only history can show God gave them another 40 years in the wilderness to slowly die out, yet still offering that lifeline of Salvation through Jesus Christ. They wanted the Cross, yet did not realize how much they needed the Cross.

While the Romans used the word "princeps" which we get Prince from, that only applied to the person making a claim as Emperor. Titus was a Roman general, not a Prince. That is not how Roman government worked. Rome was a Republic, not a kingdom or monarchy. There were no kings and royal prince positions. So saying Titus was a Prince is both wrong from Scripture and from history. A general has nothing to do with even being Emperor, although Generals of the army sought to be Emperor as they felt they had the backing of their men to keep the position strong. None of the Roman counsel had as much popular support as most generals had. In fact Vespasian sent Titus to declare Vespasian's bid, but on the way heard of another bid, so waited. There were 4 emperors that year, as 3 of them were killed, Nero being the first, and obviously two others wanted the job, but could not even keep themselves alive long enough, for lack of support and protection. So Vespasian and Titus had to leave Palestine to get their bid to be emperor to stick. Only then could Titus return to finish the war with the Jews. Had Vespasian been killed, history would have ended differently probably. Titus was not Emperor until 79, taking over for his father who died at 70 years of age. Then only lasted 2 years. Seems like they thought he was punished for destroying those who destroyed Jesus Christ.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The gap is right there in the word cut off. That is a gap, because the conclusion was not realized.


The first 3.5 years was Jesus on earth as Messiah. That ended with the Cross. The last 3.5 years will be Jesus on earth as King on a throne.

The "Messiah be cut off, but not for himself" is also not for Daniel's people. The conclusion of the 70th week is put on hold for the Gentiles.

That is what Romans 11 is for.

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid."

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

Daniel 9:24 happens when Jesus as King finishes the 70th week, and takes away their sin. Daniel 9:24 cannot happen until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. And that stops at the Second Coming, when the church is declared complete and removed from the earth. Then Matthew 25:31 happens.

The time of Jacob's trouble is the last 3.5 years of the 70th week, when Jesus is the Prince to come. Daniel 9:27 is the week of the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 10:6-7


"And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer (the 70 weeks are over): But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

The mystery is the promise of the 70 weeks, including the blindness in part of Daniel's people until Jesus as the Prince comes at the Second Coming. The 7th Trumpet is Jesus confirming the Covenant with the many. All nations are now under the authority of Jesus.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

So the 7th Trumpet sounds for one week. A set of 7 days. That is Daniel 9:27, not years but days. In the midst of this week we see the end put on hold once more. The finish of the 70 weeks is put on hold for another 42 months. This time it is for those beheaded, not harvested in the final harvest known as Jacob's trouble.

This time Satan is allowed to sit on the throne and that is the Abomination of Desolation. All of salvation will be taken away. The only means of Salvation is being beheaded to avoid the mark of this beast the AoD.

So there are two gaps in these verses in Daniel 9. One being Jesus and the last half of the 70th week put on hold for the fulness of the Gentiles. The Second being the celebration week of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. The second gap being the third woe given to mankind as a whole.

Then the final 3.5 days of the 70th week are when the 2 witnesses are killed and lay in the street of Jerusalem for 3.5 days. Those days are also when the 7 vials are poured out. Then the final end is the battle of Armageddon, and then the 70th week is over.

Then Daniel 9:24 will be the reality of the Day of the Lord. There will be no sin and decay caused by sin and death for 1,000 years. Isaiah 65 describes this time on earth. Israel will be the nation that rules the world. Jesus as King will rule over Jerusalem and Israel.

Yes, as Messiah, Jesus fulfilled those promises and did the physical part that needed to be done in the first century. But God had a plan for the rest of the world as well, which has been going on for the last 1993 years. Then at the Second Coming, Jesus will finish the week as King. Of course Amil and post trib proponents will deny this most vehemently. Many looking for Satan and his sidekicks instead of Jesus as king sitting on a throne to fulfill the Prince to come part. Then you have those stuck in the past still trying to justify the Romans removing Jerusalem and leaving it desolate.

Those who crucified Jesus were Daniel's people. This was the hook to bring about their own judgment and destruction as Gabriel promised. Which gave them the blindness in part for the fulness of the Gentiles. Only history can show God gave them another 40 years in the wilderness to slowly die out, yet still offering that lifeline of Salvation through Jesus Christ. They wanted the Cross, yet did not realize how much they needed the Cross.

While the Romans used the word "princeps" which we get Prince from, that only applied to the person making a claim as Emperor. Titus was a Roman general, not a Prince. That is not how Roman government worked. Rome was a Republic, not a kingdom or monarchy. There were no kings and royal prince positions. So saying Titus was a Prince is both wrong from Scripture and from history. A general has nothing to do with even being Emperor, although Generals of the army sought to be Emperor as they felt they had the backing of their men to keep the position strong. None of the Roman counsel had as much popular support as most generals had. In fact Vespasian sent Titus to declare Vespasian's bid, but on the way heard of another bid, so waited. There were 4 emperors that year, as 3 of them were killed, Nero being the first, and obviously two others wanted the job, but could not even keep themselves alive long enough, for lack of support and protection. So Vespasian and Titus had to leave Palestine to get their bid to be emperor to stick. Only then could Titus return to finish the war with the Jews. Had Vespasian been killed, history would have ended differently probably. Titus was not Emperor until 79, taking over for his father who died at 70 years of age. Then only lasted 2 years. Seems like they thought he was punished for destroying those who destroyed Jesus Christ.

I should spend more time with your post because you offer good information that helps with our exploration of the text. I mistakenly believed that since Titus was the son of Vespasian he was considered a prince, but I can see that was an error.

Thanks. :)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You're the "we". I'm not.

Here the promises are again. Show us how they are limited to salvation.

And thanks for the guffaws.

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

There is none greater.

We see other new promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

If you deny that God has appointed His Son alone as heir of all things, you declare God to be a liar.

His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Such as:

Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Additional promissory clauses in...:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

...declare that we who are in Christ are joint heirs with Him.

But notice:

There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile...

Who is not in Christ.

Yawn...

Those things DO NOT replace the PHYSICAL promise given to a nation of people.

That covenant you talk about IS far greater than the OLD covenant (the covenant of Moses) because the mosaic covenant could not save anyone. all it could do was condemn.

However, the abrahamic covenant, The davidic covenant, all of which are called eternal covenants, as well as I WILL covenants (meaning they are promises of Of God. and not dependent on us)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The gap is right there in the word cut off. That is a gap, because the conclusion was not realized.


The first 3.5 years was Jesus on earth as Messiah. That ended with the Cross. The last 3.5 years will be Jesus on earth as King on a throne.

The "Messiah be cut off, but not for himself" is also not for Daniel's people. The conclusion of the 70th week is put on hold for the Gentiles.

I am with you up to here.

The first 3.5 years are yet future, as are the last 3.5 years. the breaking point or event which will separate them is the Abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel.

I think one of the confusing parts is when is Messiah revealed.

Well one must remember the mystery. The suffering servant was supposed to take the sin not the messiah, He was to come and rule

Jesus was introduced as suffering servant when he was baptized. He was introduced as messiah when he rode on a donkey.

Zechariah 9:9

The Coming King​

“Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, Lowly and riding on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey.

which means the 69th week ended here in Mathew


Matt 21 Now when they drew near Jerusalem, and came to Bethphage, at the Mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her. Loose them and bring them to Me. 3 And if anyone says anything to you, you shall say, ‘The Lord has need of them,’ and immediately he will send them.”


4 All this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:


5 “Tell the daughter of Zion,
‘Behold, your King is coming to you,
Lowly, and sitting on a donkey,
A colt, the foal of a donkey.’ ”

6 So the disciples went and did as Jesus commanded them. 7 They brought the donkey and the colt, laid their clothes on them, and set Him on them. 8 And a very great multitude spread their clothes on the road; others cut down branches from the trees and spread them on the road. 9 Then the multitudes who went before and those who followed cried out, saying:

“Hosanna to the Son of David!
‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’
Hosanna in the highest!”

 

[Eternally Grateful]

While the Romans used the word "princeps" which we get Prince from, that only applied to the person making a claim as Emperor. Titus was a Roman general, not a Prince. That is not how Roman government worked. Rome was a Republic, not a kingdom or monarchy. There were no kings and royal prince positions. So saying Titus was a Prince is both wrong from Scripture and from history. A general has nothing to do with even being Emperor, although Generals of the army sought to be Emperor as they felt they had the backing of their men to keep the position strong. None of the Roman counsel had as much popular support as most generals had. In fact Vespasian sent Titus to declare Vespasian's bid, but on the way heard of another bid, so waited. There were 4 emperors that year, as 3 of them were killed, Nero being the first, and obviously two others wanted the job, but could not even keep themselves alive long enough, for lack of support and protection. So Vespasian and Titus had to leave Palestine to get their bid to be emperor to stick. Only then could Titus return to finish the war with the Jews. Had Vespasian been killed, history would have ended differently probably. Titus was not Emperor until 79, taking over for his father who died at 70 years of age. Then only lasted 2 years. Seems like they thought he was punished for destroying those who destroyed Jesus Christ.

Now this is great information. Thank you

 

[CadyandZoe]

Week 69 ended when jesus entered jerusalem as messiah the prince on a donkey.

the destruction happened 40 years later.

so if week 70 occurred after jesus entered.. then the destruction was after the 70 weeks.. whcih makes no sense

Okay. I see that.

I propose that the Seven-Year period began at the Baptism of Jesus, which marked the beginning of his ministry. The Crucifixion took place in the middle of the week when Jesus stopped the sacrifices. (Coincidentally, that was when he was "cut off" from his people.) The week ended at the stoning of Stephan.

One weakness in my proposal is the absence of "time indicators" with regard to the stoning of Stephan. I can't prove without a shadow of a doubt that he was stoned 3-1/2 years after the crucifixion. I'll grant you that. But I am attempting to assign proper weight to the significance of that event. Not long after Stephan's stoning, Herod began to persecute Jewish believers, causing the gospel to spread among the Gentile nations. And it was significant that Paul (formerly Saul) approvingly watched the stoning.

So then, the moment the 70 weeks ended, the gospel spread beyond the Jews and toward the Gentiles. This event is likely the terminus of the 70 weeks.

My proposal abandons the notion that the destruction of the temple is located within the 70 weeks. Based on what we know about God, it seems reasonable to conclude that he would give Israel extra time to repent to demonstrate the glory of his forbearance.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Okay. I see that.

I propose that the Seven-Year period began at the Baptism of Jesus, which marked the beginning of his ministry.

I disagree, I do not see that That is how the OT said the jews would know her messiah had come. And jesus was not introduced as messiah then, He was introduced as the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

I propose the 69th week ended when the messiah entered Jerusalem on the foal of a donkey. as seen below

Zechariah 9:9

The Coming King​

“Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, Lowly and riding on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey.

which means the 69th week ended here in Mathew


Matt 21 Now when they drew near Jerusalem, and came to Bethphage, at the Mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her. Loose them and bring them to Me. 3 And if anyone says anything to you, you shall say, ‘The Lord has need of them,’ and immediately he will send them.”


4 All this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:


5 “Tell the daughter of Zion,
‘Behold, your King is coming to you,
Lowly, and sitting on a donkey,
A colt, the foal of a donkey.’ ”

6 So the disciples went and did as Jesus commanded them. 7 They brought the donkey and the colt, laid their clothes on them, and set Him on them. 8 And a very great multitude spread their clothes on the road; others cut down branches from the trees and spread them on the road. 9 Then the multitudes who went before and those who followed cried out, saying:

“Hosanna to the Son of David!
‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’
Hosanna in the highest!”

The Crucifixion took place in the middle of the week when Jesus stopped the sacrifices. (Coincidentally, that was when he was "cut off" from his people.) The week ended at the stoning of Stephan.

2 things,

the sacrifices continued. they continued until 70 AD when the temple was destroyed and there was no more inner holy place

I am curious about this Steven thing. where do you see this event in Dan 9?

One weakness in my proposal is the absence of "time indicators" with regard to the stoning of Stephan. I can't prove without a shadow of a doubt that he was stoned 3-1/2 years after the crucifixion. I'll grant you that. But I am attempting to assign proper weight to the significance of that event. Not long after Stephan's stoning, Herod began to persecute Jewish believers, causing the gospel to spread among the Gentile nations. And it was significant that Paul (formerly Saul) approvingly watched the stoning.

So then, the moment the 70 weeks ended, the gospel spread beyond the Jews and toward the Gentiles. This event is likely the terminus of the 70 weeks.

My proposal abandons the notion that the destruction of the temple is located within the 70 weeks. Based on what we know about God, it seems reasonable to conclude that he would give Israel extra time to repent to demonstrate the glory of his forbearance.

What about the events Gabriel said would be fulfilled at the end of the 70 weeks?

“Seventy [e]weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.


when did these things take place

 

[covenantee]

Yawn...

Those things DO NOT replace the PHYSICAL promise given to a nation of people.

That covenant you talk about IS far greater than the OLD covenant (the covenant of Moses) because the mosaic covenant could not save anyone. all it could do was condemn.

However, the abrahamic covenant, The davidic covenant, all of which are called eternal covenants, as well as I WILL covenants (meaning they are promises of Of God. and not dependent on us)

The Abrahamic et al covenants are testamentary and promissory clauses of God's old testament, and they are absolutely eclipsed and transcended by the testamentary and promissory clauses of God's New Will and Testament, which is the only Will and Testament in force and effect since Calvary.

That's how wills and testaments work in law and in Scripture.

Yawn all you want.

You can never reverse God's New Program, a Better Covenant established upon Better Promises. Hebrews 8:6

Declared by the Holy Spirit Himself.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The Abrahamic et al covenants are testamentary and promissory clauses of God's old testament, and they are absolutely eclipsed and transcended by the testamentary and promissory clauses of God's New Will and Testament, which is the only Will and Testament in force and effect since Calvary.

This show's just how flawed your thinking is.

The abrahamic covenant included the clause, in you (literally your seed) shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.

that is being fulfilled today as we speak, as the gospel is spread through all nations because of his seed (Christ)

The new covenant does not eclipse that, it is the fulfillment of PART of that

The rest, which just had to do with a specific seed (descendents) through the promised son. which had nothing to do with anyones salvation, is called an eternal promise through ALL generations.

Last I read, eternal and all have not yet ended

That's how wills and testaments work in law and in Scripture.

Yawn all you want.

You can never reverse God's New Program, a Better Covenant established upon Better Promises. Hebrews 8:6

Declared by the Holy Spirit Himself.

I will continue to yawn, That covenant does not negate the physical promise given to a chosen people.

Your hatred of those people will come back to bite you

 

[Timtofly]

I am with you up to here.

The first 3.5 years are yet future, as are the last 3.5 years. the breaking point or event which will separate them is the Abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel.

I think one of the confusing parts is when is Messiah revealed.

Well one must remember the mystery. The suffering servant was supposed to take the sin not the messiah, He was to come and rule

Jesus was introduced as suffering servant when he was baptized. He was introduced as messiah when he rode on a donkey.

Zechariah 9:9

The Coming King​

“Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, Lowly and riding on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey.

which means the 69th week ended here in Mathew


Matt 21 Now when they drew near Jerusalem, and came to Bethphage, at the Mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her. Loose them and bring them to Me. 3 And if anyone says anything to you, you shall say, ‘The Lord has need of them,’ and immediately he will send them.”


4 All this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:


5 “Tell the daughter of Zion,
‘Behold, your King is coming to you,
Lowly, and sitting on a donkey,
A colt, the foal of a donkey.’ ”

6 So the disciples went and did as Jesus commanded them. 7 They brought the donkey and the colt, laid their clothes on them, and set Him on them. 8 And a very great multitude spread their clothes on the road; others cut down branches from the trees and spread them on the road. 9 Then the multitudes who went before and those who followed cried out, saying:

“Hosanna to the Son of David!
‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’
Hosanna in the highest!”

Yes the Baptism of Jesus was the beginning of His being the Messiah, even though the Cross was the endpoint.


The same with coming as King. It is not until the 3.5 years are over during the Trumpets and Thunders, will the 7th Trumpet declare that Jesus is now King.


Your point that the Cross starts the 70th week has no endpoint until Jesus is declared King either. Yet your 7 years has no body nor substance. It does not even have a halfway point.

The 70th week could have ended in the first century. The Day of the Lord could have already been completed a thousand years ago. We could be in the NHNE by now. Yet we are still in the 70th week one way or the other. No where in the book of Revelation does it declare a full 7 years will happen in the future. No where in the NT does it declare the 70th week was finished in the first century.

If you accept that those 70 weeks are God dealing directly with His people Israel, then Jesus dealing directly with His people during His earthly ministry should count as just that. 69 weeks were over long before Jesus was even born. There was already a gap between the 7th week and the 8th week. That is why it is given in 7 weeks and 62 weeks. Otherwise it could have been written as 69 weeks, just as easily as 7 and 62 weeks. The only people who even remembered the promise given were Anna and Simeon. They were the only two left of the generation that ended the 69 weeks. They lived longer than most people of that time. Luke 2:25-38

"And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him. And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed. And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem."

The verse states:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city."

It does not say:

"Seventy weeks from now this will happen:"