The Hell Doctrine - No doctrinal unity

[face2face]

John 3:16 says that the faithful never die. Besides, there are seemingly countless testimonies from people who claimed to have Heavenly (and Hellish) experiences during NDE'S.

The use of the word perish in Scripture relates to permanent corruption in the grave (no coming out!). This is very easy to prove with a concordance.

 

[face2face]

there are seemingly countless testimonies from people who claimed to have Heavenly (and Hellish) experiences during NDE'S.

No doubt the human mind is a peculiar organ evidence to which is the imaginations of many in this forum on what happens after death. The Bible is super clear - dust you are and dust you will return! Don't play the part of the serpent!
F2F

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
I mostly agree. But this does not support inerrancy.
Can you even define inerrancy? Do you actually know what that means?

lack of error; infallibility. the belief that the Bible is free from error in matters of science as well as those of faith.

Obviously, inerrancy and infallibility are two different things.
Are you backing away from your biblical inerrancy claim?

In matters of science?
The Bible says God formed us from the dust of the earth.
And flat-earthers use the Bible to support their claims.

 

[St. SteVen]

The use of the word perish in Scripture relates to permanent corruption in the grave (no coming out!). This is very easy to prove with a concordance.

That seems more like opinion than fact. No other options?
The word "perish" appears 153 times in the KJV. (120 in the NIV)
Are you claiming it means "permanent corruption in the grave" in every instance?
That would probably be easy to disprove.

If what you say is true, this scripture below would support UR. Right?
Is God willing that any should have "permanent corruption in the grave",
but that all should come to repentance?

2 Peter 3:9 KJV
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;
but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish,
but that all should come to repentance.

 

[face2face]

That seems more like opinion than fact. No other options?
The word "perish" appears 153 times in the KJV. (120 in the NIV)
Are you claiming it means "permanent corruption in the grave" in every instance?
That would probably be easy to disprove.

If what you say is true, this scripture below would support UR. Right?
Is God willing that any should have "permanent corruption in the grave",
but that all should come to repentance?

2 Peter 3:9 KJV
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;
but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish,
but that all should come to repentance.

We can find out together, if you like I might have been a bit rash, if I said that "every" instance of the word means that, but lets enquire of the Lord.

2 Peter 3:9 KJV
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;
but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish,
but that all should come to repentance.

So here the context fits right? God is not willing that any should perish permenantly in the grave, however He knows that will be the case.

Genesis 6:17 translators use the word die instead of perish.

17 For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life under heaven. Everything that is on the earth shall die (perish)

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Ge 6:16–17.

גָּוַע (gāwaʿ) be dead, die, give up the ghost(breath), perish, yield up the ghost, ready to die.

Harold G. Stigers, “328 גָּוַע,” Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (Chicago: Moody Press, 1999), 155.

I'll have another look and see if I can find an instance which bucks the trend.

F2F

 

[face2face]

36 That food shall be a reserve for the land against the seven years of famine that are to occur in the land of Egypt, so that the land may not perish through the famine.”

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Ge 41:36.

Joseph is most certainly using the word here in its ultimate sense. While I think the word perish means to die and cease to exist, I don't believe it means all will stay in the perished state.

In this example those in a covenant relationship with God would hope to be raised.

Having said that the emphasis here is permenant loss of life throughout the land.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Psalm 9:3

9:3 When my enemies turn back, they trip and are defeated before you.

Biblical Studies Press, The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible (Biblical Studies Press, 2005), Ps 9:3.

n Or “perish”; or “die.” The imperfect verbal forms in this line either emphasize what typically happens or describe vividly the aftermath of a recent battle in which the Lord defeated the psalmist’s enemies.

Yep thats permenant.

 

[face2face]

@St. SteVen I've looked through many of its occurances and I'm confident the rule applies. Perish is usually used in an extreme sense of the wicked or unfaithful perishing in the grave i.e. ceasing to totally exist.

Heb 11:31 By faith Rahab the prostitute escaped the destruction (perish altogether) of the disobedient, because she welcomed the spies in peace.

Biblical Studies Press, The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible (Biblical Studies Press, 2005), Heb 11:31.

That's interesting as it implies her faith saved her whereas the ungodly all perished!

If you find an exception be sure to let me know!

F2F

 

[face2face]

@St. SteVen Here is kind of an exception, however its a different Hebrew Word, one which is rarely used! Conext is different also.

Then David said in his heart, “Now I shall perish one day by the hand of Saul. 1 Sa 27:1.

What's interesting about the use of the below word is it isn't the commonly used Perish, to mean to die
permanently

1531 סָפָה (sāpâ) sweep(away), destroy, consume. (ASV, RSV similarly.) R. D. Patterson, “1531 סָפָה,” Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (Chicago: Moody Press, 1999), 630.

Do you think I should have said 99.6% of the time maybe?

LoL

 

[Behold]

Do you get this from another "unknown" book?
Care to share.

Matthew 25:41: Then God will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire : prepared for the devil and his angels.""""

 

[face2face]

Matthew 25:41: Then God will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire : prepared for the devil and his angels.""""

Correct, the punishment is everlasting, but it is not conscious eternal torment. This is speaking of the eternal nature of the judgement.

You need to understand the figurative language being adopted, here Jesus uses it more plainly.

Jesus stated that "if a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6)

Firstly, men and woman are not literal branch’s, though their nature is no different...all return to the ground.
Secondly, men and women will not be literally thrown in a fire and burned.
Thirdly, its the eternal nature of the judgement which is being conveyed not conscious torment.

What you must understand is the literary techniques the Master used in all forms of his teaching.

I could speak more about the phrase "devil and his angels" but I sense that might tip you over the edge.

F2F

 

[face2face]

For everyone else the word "punishment" is "kolasis" which means "a pruning".

Beside the obvious link with John 15:6 ;

The Psalmist said they would be "cut off" (Psa. 37:9)
They "shall not be". (Psa. 37:10).
Malachi states that the wicked will be burnt like stubble leaving them "neither root nor branch" Mal. 4:1, like "ashes" to be trodden under foot. (Mal. 4:3).

You can see the Masters understanding had deep roots in the OT and its not the kind of language you would connect with immortal souls being tormented for eternity.

Hope that helps
F2F

 

[Keiw]

Nice Keiw - the man that has all truth! I sense a fall coming...

This system is almost done. It cannot go on much longer.

 

[Keiw]

How ironic. The Scripture went right over your head.

John 8
58 　Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
Exodus 3
14 　And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

There is no-i am that i am in the Hebrew OT. error put it there to mislead what Jesus actually said--He lived before Abraham is what he answered. All can see those whose father is the devil( Israelite spiritual teachers) says Jesus said something else-same today.

 

[Jack]

Matthew 25:41: Then God will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire : prepared for the devil and his angels.""""

The Bible is a 'comic book' to many 'Christians'. Soon they will wake up, one way or the other.

Matthew 13
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Jack]

There is no-i am that i am in the Hebrew OT. error put it there to mislead what Jesus actually said--He lived before Abraham is what he answered. All can see those whose father is the devil( Israelite spiritual teachers) says Jesus said something else-same today.

Whoever convinced you that you're a Hebrew expert lied to you BIG TIME! Try to learn English first.

Exodus 3:14 (ASV)
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Exodus 3:14 (AMP)
14 And God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM and WHAT I AM, and I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE; and He said, You shall say this to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you!

Exodus 3:14 (BBE)
14 And God said to him, I AM WHAT I AM: and he said, Say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.

Exodus 3:14 (CSBBible)
14 God replied to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you."

Exodus 3:14 (CEB)
14 God said to Moses, "I Am Who I Am. So say to the Israelites, 'I Am has sent me to you.'"

Exodus 3:14 (CEV)
14 God said to Moses: I am the eternal God. So tell them that the LORD, whose name is "I Am," has sent you.

Exodus 3:14 (Darby)
14 And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.

Exodus 3:14 (ETRV)
14 Then God said to Moses, "Tell them, 'I AM WHO I AM.' When you go to the Israelites, tell them, 'I AM' sent me to you."

Exodus 3:14 (ESV)
14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

Exodus 3:14 (GW)
14 God answered Moses, “I Am Who I Am. This is what you must say to the people of Israel: ‘I Am has sent me to you.'”

Exodus 3:14 (HCSB)
14 God replied to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you.”

Exodus 3:14 (ICB)
14 Then God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. When you go to the people of Israel, tell them, 'I AM sent me to you.' "

Exodus 3:14 (KJV)
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Exodus 3:14 (MLB)
14 God said to Moses, I am who I am. Thus you will speak to the Israelites, I AM has sent me to you.

Exodus 3:14 (NET1)
14 God said to Moses, “I AM that I AM.”[47] And he said, “You must say this[48] to the Israelites, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

Exodus 3:14 (NASB77)
14 And God said to Moses, " I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ' I AM has sent me to you.'"

Exodus 3:14 (NASB)
14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

Exodus 3:14 (NCV)
14 Then God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. When you go to the people of Israel, tell them, ’I AM sent me to you.’ “

Exodus 3:14 (NIV)
14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

Exodus 3:14 (NIV2011)
14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

Exodus 3:14 (NJB)
14 God said to Moses, ‘I am he who is.' And he said, ‘This is what you are to say to the Israelites, “I am has sent me to you.” '

Exodus 3:14 (NLT2)
14 God replied to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. Say this to the people of Israel: I AM has sent me to you.”

Exodus 3:14 (NRSV)
14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am." He said further, "Thus you shall say to the Israelites, 'I am has sent me to you.'"

Exodus 3:14 (RSV)
14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, `I AM has sent me to you.'"

Exodus 3:14 (TLB)
14 " ’The Sovereign God,’ " was the reply. "Just say, ’I Am has sent me!’

Exodus 3:14 (MSG)
14 God said to Moses, "I-AM-WHO-I-AM. Tell the People of Israel, 'I-AM sent me to you.' "

Exodus 3:14 (TEV)
14 God said, "I am who I am. You must tell them: 'The one who is called I AM has sent me to you.'

Exodus 3:14 (Webster's Bible)
14 And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM: And he said, Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me to you.

Exodus 3:14 (YLT)
14 And God saith unto Moses, `I AM THAT WHICH I AM;' He saith also, `Thus dost thou say to the sons of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.'

 

[Triumph1300]

Not one verse says we go immediately to heaven. We go to paradise and wait for the resurrection.

Heaven and paradise are two different locations?

 

[teamventure]

St. SteVen said:
I mostly agree. But this does not support inerrancy.
Can you even define inerrancy? Do you actually know what that means?

Obviously, inerrancy and infallibility are two different things.
Are you backing away from your biblical inerrancy claim?

In matters of science?
The Bible says God formed us from the dust of the earth.
And flat-earthers use the Bible to support their claims.

You know a lot but your problem is most of what you know is anti-biblical propaganda, which should have no place in a Christians beliefs, or shall I say a lack thereof.

 

[face2face]

We dont put faith in ink on a page, we put our faith in a Living God. Regardless of all the claims, for or against the accuracy of the Word, we know it can assist in forming that relationship we need with Him Who has called from darkness into a glorious light.

 

[St. SteVen]

You know a lot but your problem is most of what you know is anti-biblical propaganda, which should have no place in a Christians beliefs, or shall I say a lack thereof.

Sounds like you misunderstand me completely.