The Hell Doctrine - No doctrinal unity
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Should we believe you or Jesus?
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
You should use the Wisdom of God. The Old Testament.
Jack, you are very tiring, need to rest :)
No Scripture? Of course not! Your opinions do not overrule Jesus.
A small r reprobate perhaps. Free will is always necessary in my understanding of the bible. The verse is of the same vein as Luke 5:32 I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance. It is not about nuances of judgement.
Small r reprobate? Either way, not our call.
Here's what we need to consider about free will. (no such thing)
The Will of Man - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby
The Will of Man - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby At this point I wish to share some searching and enlightening words penned by a servant of the Lord more than sixty-five years ago. "Concerning the nature and the power of man's will, the greatest confusion prevails...
www.christianityboard.com
Not about "nuances of judgement"? Not sure about that.
By "judgement", do you mean punishment?
People forget that one option in judgement is mercy, which God is full of.
Certainly judgement will differ depending on the person.
Every idle word? Wood, hay and stubble. Good works, evil deeds.
Blue collar crime, white collar crime. Those in leadership.
Kings and Priests. Prophets and Sorcerers...
No nuances in judgement?
Certainly not, man's opinion is less than worthless. Only the Word is flawless.
No Scriptures for you. Still wary of concision. :) Still tired.
And it insists that the eternal Hell fire is real! The rich man died but was very much alive and tormented in the fire.
Luke 16
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
IMHO, the error comes with the translation of "aionios, or aionion" from aion, all variable periods of time or outside of time itself. When applied to God, His domain or our free gift, it means eternal. But when applying it to a temporal reality, it means ages, lifetimes, generations, epoch, or world.
In Isaiah 57:15, the word for eternity ( transliterated as ad), means continued duration, always or perpetually. It is the only time it is used to mean eternity in the Old Testament. It is translated as ever 41 times, twice as everlasting, once as end, once a old, once as evermore and once as perpetually. GOD inhabits eternity.
" He stood, and measured the earth: He beheld a dove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow; His ways are everlasting." Hab. 3:6 KJV
The same word, ad is used here, but it has different meanings. GOD'S WAYS ARE ETERNAL, but mountains and hills aren't, they are age-lasting, temporary.
"But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear Him and His righteousness unto children's children" Psalm 103:17 KJV. That means from generation to generation. You couldn't substitute eternity to eternity, it wouldn't make sense.
This earth is temporal and everything in it. Hades is the underworld _ in the earth _ under the crust _ composed of deep dark caverns. Hades and all who are in it, death itself, Satan and his demons AND the first earth will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire, which IS HELL! It is more of an event. (See 2 Peter 3:10). "All former things will pass away". That includes the above.
In this scenario, "damnation" is everlasting but now correctly translated as only age- lasting or age-during. The KJV of Matthew 25:46 understood this.
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. MATT. 10:28
Perish and destroy actually mean what they say, to put an end to.
You can't destroy something for eternity, but within an age you can or through the ages, but it ends somewhere. Otherwise it would be an indestructible destruction or imperishable perishing, which are contradictions.
In Isaiah 57:15, the word for eternity ( transliterated as ad), means continued duration, always or perpetually. It is the only time it is used to mean eternity in the Old Testament. It is translated as ever 41 times, twice as everlasting, once as end, once a old, once as evermore and once as perpetually. GOD inhabits eternity.
" He stood, and measured the earth: He beheld a dove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow; His ways are everlasting." Hab. 3:6 KJV
The same word, ad is used here, but it has different meanings. GOD'S WAYS ARE ETERNAL, but mountains and hills aren't, they are age-lasting, temporary.
"But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear Him and His righteousness unto children's children" Psalm 103:17 KJV. That means from generation to generation. You couldn't substitute eternity to eternity, it wouldn't make sense.
This earth is temporal and everything in it. Hades is the underworld _ in the earth _ under the crust _ composed of deep dark caverns. Hades and all who are in it, death itself, Satan and his demons AND the first earth will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire, which IS HELL! It is more of an event. (See 2 Peter 3:10). "All former things will pass away". That includes the above.
In this scenario, "damnation" is everlasting but now correctly translated as only age- lasting or age-during. The KJV of Matthew 25:46 understood this.
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. MATT. 10:28
Perish and destroy actually mean what they say, to put an end to.
You can't destroy something for eternity, but within an age you can or through the ages, but it ends somewhere. Otherwise it would be an indestructible destruction or imperishable perishing, which are contradictions.
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Analogy
The verses are about the police policies, not the policies of the legislature. We are not to forsake one to swamp of ideas but to instill the basic logical structure so the Holy Spirit can reside. What happens after that is only for and by the Glory of God. The police polices teach enforcement officers the will of the Lawmaker the scales of the law are impartial.
My take of judgement
Before the Great White Throne, Grace is either Given or no. We all appear before our Maker sinners. The Scrutiny of God will wither all because of our sin - any sin so probably no Grace. The difference is Jesus will see us first and a scibble in our book of experiences and emphasize wholesome pages and redact or fineprint the no so flattering pages. Hand it to God "Hmm. Good edit" He will look in our eyes and God may say: This is now the spirit of my Spirit; you shall be called ‘son,’
All sinners are goners. Only Jesus can edit our books. Best let Jesus recognize you before the GWT. Jesus will give you a good edit.
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Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
I guess you didn't get the meaning of aion = age? "age-lasting" fire ... "for ages". Maybe I need to make the letters bigger and bolder?
In all fairness, how is eternal torment a judgment proportionate to the sin?
People live some 80 years and some don't even reach their 20th birthday. How is eternal torment justified by one human lifetime of sinning? Inwoulfbth8nk an equal amount if torment is just, for as many years. But it doesn't have to be an equal amount of time, it could be a quick end for some - it is His prerogative to get rid of them out-of His sight permanently!
We see God's fair justice and judgment throughout scripture and it is always for a temporal period, just and fair. And how is God glorified by such a judgment? Only He would be aware of this. We would not have awareness of people suffering eternally. He would have to erase our memory. We'd be in heavenly peace, filled with joy, void of sadness and all would be good, we could not cope with the knowledge of anyone experiencing pain and suffering. Btw, the Bible says there will be no more pain and suffering. Obviously there wouldn't be any in heaven. Did we really need assurance of this _ in heaven _ or was it speaking of pain and suffering not existing anymore _ anywhere?
The Bible says He will wipe every tear away. What tears could we possibly have in heaven? Likely when we arrive, we'll find out who did not make it and then Jesus will remove our sadness, comfort us somehow that it will not return. Erase our memories of this person? I don't know. So then it would be just Him being aware of a sustained suffering and torment of billions. How does that please Him? Will He be constantly thinking "Justice is being served, billions are in the fire ... justice is being served ... burn younwretched wbil ones, burn .
... as a never ending stream of awareness! I don't think so. I don't believe He needs reprobates to serve any more time or exist beyond Judgment Day. He gets rid of them ... and all evil ceases to exist! Justice is served, the death penalty (physically and spiritually). An end of existence is just and merciful. Besides, ages and ages of suffering already transpired in Hades, thousands of years for some.
Your opinions do not overrule Jesus.
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
It's all about translation and interpretation.
Look at the very words you are quoting,
"day and night". When the first earth and heavens are destroyed, there won't be anymore nights now will there. It suggests a temporal period of time, ages and ages.
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
An all loving God would not torture people forever!
He would lie about in the scriptures just to scare people!
News flash!
Hell fire put out!
Evil people going to Heaven!
God and good people moving out!
He would lie about in the scriptures just to scare people!
News flash!
Hell fire put out!
Evil people going to Heaven!
God and good people moving out!
Guess you missed this part.
"they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
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Great post, thanks. Have you seen this?
Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.
All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.
Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.
Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”
Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21
Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)
'Christians' still trying to rewrite our Bible.
Hebrews 10
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hebrews 10
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
75 years old ... set in your ways...but not forever, just for an age.
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