Pre-Trib Rapture Danger To Your Soul

[teamventure]

You'd first have to realize that's exactly what YOU... have been doing first.

No I didn't. You are the one attacking a whole group of people (pre-tribers)
and now you sound as immature as a child by saying (he did it first.)
I'm done with you until you learn to grow up.

 

[teamventure]

I HAVE provided tons... of Scripture support for a POST-TRIBULATIONAL coming of Lord Jesus Christ and His gathering of His Church.

You LIE, because YOU haven't given ANY Scripture backing for your pre-trib rapture theory at all!

Hitler did that same thing you're doing, telling a LIE often enough you think the stupid and gullible will believe it!

Once again you are being misleading.
You said belief in a rapture is a salvation issue. I replied you haven't provided scriptural proof of that. You replied by saying you have proof of a post tribulation rapture which is not the subject I was talking about in response to a thread you made.
I did not lie that is a false accusation, I don't argue about the timing of the rapture because it is a secondary issue and divisive.
You are being like Hitler by perpetuating nonsense that the rapture is a salvation issue and when I ask for scripture, you change the subject.
Have a nice day.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Appreciate you @marks, @Johann, and @teamventure - God Encourage and Edify you all
Very Richly!

With that, I will now have to UNwatch this thread...

 

[Johann]

Appreciate you @marks, @Johann, and @teamventure - God Encourage and Edify you all
Very Richly!

With that, I will now have to UNwatch this thread...

Same with you and family @GRACE ambassador -if we can't find encouragement here-we can always encourage ourselves in our Lord.
Shalom
Johann.

 

[Timtofly]

That's just it, you will not recognize the false-Messiah as being FALSE, but will receive him in place of Jesus Christ, wrongly thinking he is Lord Jesus, because of the great signs, wonders, and miracles that coming false-Messiah is going to work...

Lord Jesus' warning to the Church about that:

Matt 24:23-28
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

If someone comes up to you and says Jesus has returned, and you have not gone through the 'change' that Apostle Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15, then that one will be the false-Messiah come to play Jesus Christ, working miracles to deceive.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

That phrase "false Christs" is actually Greek pseudochristos, from two Greek words, 'pseudo' which means false, and 'christos' which is singular for Christ. The tense of these verses here are SINGULAR, about the coming of A false-Christ that will have power to actually perform great signs and miracles, that IF... possible, would deceive even Christ's very elect.

That last statement Jesus made about that is very important, because it reveals just on what level... of deceptive power of miracles that coming pseudo-Christ is going to work. Christ's very elect cannot be deceived, because Jesus already owns His very elect and they are chosen. But those 'called' only, they can allow themselves to be deceived, and that means the majority of the world.

That event for the coming tribulation is the apostasy (falling away) that Apostle Paul was warning us about when that "man of sin" is revealed per 2 Thessalonians 2. Paul also called it the "strong delusion" that God is sending upon those who receive not the love of the Truth.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

Anytime The LORD repeats a prophecy, it means pay attention, big time!

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.

Lord Jesus repeats His warning of verse 23. But this time with more info. It points to that coming false-Christ setting himself up in the temple at Jerusalem ("secret chambers") having come in from the north (he is to come down to Jerusalem per the path that the "Assyrian" did per the Book of Isaiah.)

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

With that, Lord Jesus is contrasting how HE RETURNS in comparison with how the deceived will be saying, "Lo, here is Christ, or there" about the false-Christ's coming.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV

That verse is a parallel to His answer of Luke 17:37 when His disciples asked Him 'where' the first one 'taken' would be taken to. He said wheresoever the dead are, that's where the fowls will be gathered. So that definitely is not about a rapture to Lord Jesus, even though that is what the Pre-trib Rapture school teaches.

In Summary:
If one is deceived in not understanding that a false-Christ is coming first to play Lord Jesus, as warned by Lord Jesus and the Epistles by His Apostles, then they will be wrongly led to believe on the false-Christ and will not be found a spiritually 'chaste virgin' to Jesus Christ when He does return afterwards.

We don't rapture ourselves. When it happens, you will have no say over how it happens. You won't be able to stay on earth, even if you want to, which you claim, you do want to stay on the earth when the rapture happens.

 

[Timtofly]

God's Wrath is on the last day of this world, and is the 7th Vial of Revelation 16.

Why do you keep saying the last day of this world? Do you mean the 1,000 years or are you an amil, and it is the last 24 hours?

The last day of the church on the earth is the opening of the 5th and 6th Seals. That happens before the 1st Trumpet. The Second Coming happens at the 6th Seal. That all happens before the Trumpets and Thunders. That is not the last 24 hours of this world. There is still a thousand years left after the 7th Trumpet stops sounding.

Revelation 19 is still not the last day of this world. Unless you are talking about Adam's dead corruptible flesh being the world? The last day of Adam's dead corruptible flesh could happen without Satan getting 42 months. That 42 months is only for those being beheaded. They have yet to decide to follow Christ or follow Satan. If you are still there, then you had better accept getting your head chopped off at that point. There may not be a tomorrow for you and the mark will be given by God at any point, so waiting increases the chance you will receive the mark. Starving to death is not salvation. Chopping your head off is the only means of Salvation at that point. Avoiding the decision is not enduring until the end. If you still have a head at Armageddon, you will will also have a mark that declares you have rejected God and follow only the beast and FP into the LOF.

The sheep are not separated from the goats at Armageddon. The sheep are redeemed during the Trumpets. Jesus is sitting on that glorious throne per Matthew 25 during the Trumpets. No one is even alive on the earth after Armageddon. The sheep are those on white horses coming with Christ, not on the earth waiting for redemption. Those on white horses are the sheep and wheat of that final harvest after the Second Coming. They are the first generation of those living on the earth during the Day of the Lord. Pretty sure that those on the earth for the next 1,000 years will see God sitting on the GWT which fills both heaven and earth. The footstool or base is on the earth. We cannot see it because all are spiritually blind to that part of creation. Isaiah 66:1 just after Isaiah 65 describing the Day of the Lord.

"Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?"

They will see God sitting on the GWT. Seconded by Stephen in Acts 7:49.

"Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?"

God is not in temples. God is seated on the GWT. This GWT can be seen after the 6th Seal, because the 6th Seal is the coming of the day of the Lord. God has to clean up the earth, so the Day can start on a changed earth without sin, and with everlasting righteousness. We know they can see the GWT at the 6th Seal and spiritual blindness is removed. That does not mean deception is removed. Satan and many who follow Satan will work hard to decieve those still on the earth. Here is the 6th Seal:

"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Scripture tells us right there all on earth can see God sitting on the GWT because they are hiding from that face that no one can look upon, except the sons of God. This is not the battle scene of Revelation 19 at Armageddon. The 6th Seal is the thief in the night moment of the coming Day of the Lord, and the Second Coming of Jesus as King to the Mount of Olives. The church is not on earth at that moment. But the sheep and goats, wheat and tares are on the earth, because the final harvest is gathered by the angels, not the church. The church is gathering the church harvest up until the 6th Seal. Then it is the Son of man and the angels gathering the final harvest during the Trumpets and Thunders. That is what Matthew 13 and 25 teach, to all who read the Scriptures. Man interprets a totally different reality from those verses. Heaven and earth have not passed away. They are just in a state of judgment.

They never pass away, as in death. After the Day of the Lord, Jesus hands back creation complete and subdued to God, and then current creation ceases to exist, and the next creation starts as the NHNE.

 

[Davy]

No I didn't. You are the one attacking a whole group of people (pre-tribers)
and now you sound as immature as a child by saying (he did it first.)
I'm done with you until you learn to grow up.

I'm attacking the FALSE DOCTRINE of a pre-tribulational rapture, so there you pre-tribbers go again TRYING to discredit those who stick to God's Word AS WRITTEN.

 

[Davy]

Once again you are being misleading.

I am being straight-up in God's Word, having given many Scripture proofs of Jesus' future coming AFTER the tribulation, and YOU claim that is misleading? You are telling lies with saying that.

You said belief in a rapture is a salvation issue. I replied you haven't provided scriptural proof of that.

Nice slur at trying to use that single word "rapture" as if I'm saying there is no such "caught up" gathering to Christ. I NEVER said that, but I whole-heartedly believe what Apostle Paul said in 1 Thess.4 about the alive saints being "CAUGHT UP" to Christ at His coming.

The difference is, I no way believe a PRE-TRIB rapture idea, and such an idea as a PRE-TRIB coming by Christ to gather the Church is nowhere written in God's Word.

You replied by saying you have proof of a post tribulation rapture which is not the subject I was talking about in response to a thread you made.

I showed the Scripture proof, you simply REJECT what Lord Jesus Himself said, so why play coy?

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

That is the SAME gathering of the saints Truth that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4, the difference being that above, Jesus gave the TIMING of that future event. And also, Mark 13:24-27 is another version of the above, which instead covers the gathering of the saints from the earth (i.e., Paul's "caught up" of 1 Thess.4). So more than likely, Paul taught 1 Thess.4 directly from what Lord Jesus showed. And in 2 Thess.2, Paul also confirms the timing of Christ's coming to gather His Church like Jesus showed in the above, at the end of the tribulation.

 

[teamventure]

I am being straight-up in God's Word, having given many Scripture proofs of Jesus' future coming AFTER the tribulation, and YOU claim that is misleading? You are telling lies with saying that.


Nice slur at trying to use that single word "rapture" as if I'm saying there is no such "caught up" gathering to Christ. I NEVER said that, but I whole-heartedly believe what Apostle Paul said in 1 Thess.4 about the alive saints being "CAUGHT UP" to Christ at His coming.

The difference is, I no way believe a PRE-TRIB rapture idea, and such an idea as a PRE-TRIB coming by Christ to gather the Church is nowhere written in God's Word.



I showed the Scripture proof, you simply REJECT what Lord Jesus Himself said, so why play coy?

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

That is the SAME gathering of the saints Truth that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4, the difference being that above, Jesus gave the TIMING of that future event. And also, Mark 13:24-27 is another version of the above, which instead covers the gathering of the saints from the earth (i.e., Paul's "caught up" of 1 Thess.4). So more than likely, Paul taught 1 Thess.4 directly from what Lord Jesus showed. And in 2 Thess.2, Paul also confirms the timing of Christ's coming to gather His Church like Jesus showed in the above, at the end of the tribulation.

You missed my point again.

I was not asking for proof of a post-tribulation rapture
I was asking for proof that belief in a pre-trib rapture is a salvation issue which you have not provided.

 

[Davy]

You missed my point again.

I was not asking for proof of a post-tribulation rapture
I was asking for proof that belief in a pre-trib rapture is a salvation issue which you have not provided.

NO! You continually miss the point of Bible Scripture! and that point is, there is NO PRE-TRIB RAPTURE written in God's Word!

Jesus emphatically revealed His coming to gather His saints Immediately AFTER the tribulation, not before.

 

[No Pre-TB]

I don't think believing in the Pre-TB theory has anything to do with a Christian losing salvation. For me, I think it has to do with preparation. For those that are Pre-TB, bear with me for a moment and please assume you're wrong. In this moment, what would that mean? Are you ready to endure the tribulation? Would others be more easily deceived during this time than if they had been spiritually prepared? Could a Pre-TB believer that realizes they were wrong, think to themselves what else in scripture I am wrong with or perhaps what I was taught was wrong as well. Would they be ready to face the testing that comes on the whole world and be able to pass?

Pre-TB believers are no different than me except that we believe different models. But my heart is passionate to them because having come from them, I want them to be prepared. I want them to succeed. I want them to know what I believe to be truthful. It is because I love them, I enjoy talking to them about these things.

We have many passionate people that are not Pre-TB. Unfortunately, some come off arrogant, using their anger and frustration, wagging their finger on others. This is not how we should have discourse. For those that are not Pre-TB, no one will hear you if you force feed them your beliefs. Only out of love and much patience with sound doctrine will they listen. Not just scripture, but love and patience. And for all those here that keep pushing and pushing, do not forget one plants the seed, another waters. It may not be these forums that changes their belief. But it is surely these forums that they build their wall of defense against because of some arrogance and disrespectful speech from others. Why wouldn't they? Why wouldn't we do the same?

For me, I look at the words of Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Since scripture cannot invalidate scripture, how can the standard Pre-TB theory of a rapture precede the first seal, what they say is God's wrath, in Revelation 6 if God's wrath doesn't happen till sometime after the 6th seal?
Christ also mentioned this same event in Matthew 24 as evidence of what comes before and after it when he says,

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

If God's wrath happens sometime after the 6th seal and Christ testifies that tribulation happens before it, how can a standard Pre-TB rapture be correct? It would mean we go through the great tribulation, mentioned in preceding verse Matthew 24:21, and would explain in part the 5th seal martyrs as had gone through tribulation or the great tribulation.

All of us or at least most of us agree we as Christians are not to go through God's wrath. But when is his wrath specifically on each and every man? (Rhetorical question)

When the plagues fell on Egypt, were they his wrath or were they to show His power? To declare his majesty? To acknowledge he is the only God? Why did the plagues fall on Egypt and not Goshen? Both peoples were not exempt though the Israelites were protected because of their faith and obedience to Moses. Deuteronomy 7:19 calls it a time of testing, a trial with signs and wonders.

You saw with your own eyes the great trials, the signs and wonders, the mighty hand and outstretched arm, with which the LORD your God brought you out. The LORD your God will do the same to all the peoples you now fear.

If the plagues were a time of testing/trials for the Egyptians and it wasn't wrath till God destroyed the Egyptians in the Red sea (some may argue the killing of the first born was also wrath), does this have any correlation to our understanding of Revelation? Just something to think about.

This post was made not to stir up Pre-TB resentment. It was made honestly to ask a serious question of Pre-TB belief against scripture and to caution those that are not Pre-TB to be gentle to others and know when to bridle their tongues.

 

[teamventure]

NO! You continually miss the point of Bible Scripture! and that point is, there is NO PRE-TRIB RAPTURE written in God's Word!

Jesus emphatically revealed His coming to gather His saints Immediately AFTER the tribulation, not before.

You have just proved my point by your reply. Belief in a pre-trib rapture being a salvation issue is nowhere in scripture.
The basis of this whole thread has just been debunked.

 

[Davy]

Brethren in Christ, if you want to listen to the lackeys here that go against The Word of God with their false pre-trib rapture theory, and be 'taken' by Satan's host, then that's certainly your choice. But you will find NO BIBLE SCRIPTURE written supporting any such pre-trib rapture gathering of the Church.

If you think... there is Bible Scripture written that proves a pre-trib rapture theory, then I accept the challenge.

But instead just mouthing off with not even trying to give Scripture support for what you believe, well doing that means automatic loss in the argument.

 

[teamventure]

But instead just mouthing off with not even trying to give Scripture support for what you believe, well doing that means automatic loss in the argument.

Like when you said belief in a pre-trib rapture is a salvation issue. Got it!

 

[The Light]

Don't fib to me, you and I well know what you are interested in, and it ain't what Lord Jesus told you as written in His Word, since you DENY His teaching in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 where He specifically showed His coming to gather His Church is AFTER... the tribulation. That is real simple Scripture that is impossible to twist. And I don't care who one is, if they 'try' to twist it, I will declare their lie.

Yes there is a rapture AFTER the tribulation. However it is not the Church being raptured. The Church is raptured before the seals are epened.

How do you not understand these things?

Don't be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The fig tree has two harvests. Jacob had two brides. There is a grain harvest and fruit harvest.

 

[The Light]

Brethren in Christ, if you want to listen to the lackeys here that go against The Word of God with their false pre-trib rapture theory, and be 'taken' by Satan's host, then that's certainly your choice. But you will find NO BIBLE SCRIPTURE written supporting any such pre-trib rapture gathering of the Church.

If you think... there is Bible Scripture written that proves a pre-trib rapture theory, then I accept the challenge.

Your lack of understanding is the real danger to your Christian brethren. You have no idea that the rapture of the Church is about to happen and you are totally unaware as you are not watching as our Lord instructs.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Yes there is a rapture AFTER the tribulation. However it is not the Church being raptured. The Church is raptured before the seals are epened.

How do you not understand these things?

Don't be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The fig tree has two harvests. Jacob had two brides. There is a grain harvest and fruit harvest.

There is no scripture that teaches us there will be two harpazos. Those who are alive and survive till the end are removed one time. There is not a second "end" that a second group that is also alive and survives is also harpazod.

Secondly, you are separating God's people from God's people. We are all one in Christ. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile. There is only 1 harvest. The wheat into his barn. The tares are bundled to be burned.

 

[Davy]

Like when you said belief in a pre-trib rapture is a salvation issue. Got it!

Evidence for what I said before: No Scripture support offered whatsoever, so that's just more 'mouthing' off.

 

[Timtofly]

If God's wrath happens sometime after the 6th seal and Christ testifies that tribulation happens before it, how can a standard Pre-TB rapture be correct? It would mean we go through the great tribulation, mentioned in preceding verse Matthew 24:21, and would explain in part the 5th seal martyrs as had gone through tribulation or the great tribulation.

Would you say Stephen was the first martyr in this time you call the Great Tribulation? Obviously the rapture did not happen prior to Stephen being stoned to death. Stephen was prepared to go through great tribulation. Some would even say God's wrath was poured out on Stephen's generation. Stephen would be one of those "martyrs" mentioned in the 5th Seal. Has the last 1993 years been great tribulation or even The Great Tribulation?

Jesus did mention tribulation in Matthew 24:4-14. Do you think that is the same tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:21-28?

I am not sure you can even use Revelation 6 and the 5th Seal as pointing out a difference in Tribulation. But if you are, these souls in the 5th Seal were rewarded and then told to wait, because more would be killed after that point. Can you explain why they were rewarded prior to even more trouble on earth when even more would be physically killed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh?

Also tribulation is not always about martyrdom. What is the point about trying to stay alive until the end if one is martyred? Would not physically dying defeat the purpose of just staying alive until the end? One who is martyred, failed in the only aspect presented that one must stay alive until the end.

The point missed is still remaining faithful until one dies, not until a certain time frame is reached without dying. A person's tribulation personally ends at physical death. The point of them being faithful is prior to physical death, and any tribulation after they are dead would not apply to them being faithful as being a martyr is the ultimate preparation point of one's faithfulness, not saying you managed to escape death. Escaping death is not the point. Being faithful in tribulation is the point. So one is not preparing for tribulation by stocking up food and hiding out until time is up. One is preparing for tribulation by being willing to even die as a martyr in tribulation. So you don't need any specific time frames to be prepared. You are prepared if you remain faithful even when faced with martyrdom. Which tens of thousands have been over the last 1993 years.

Also the rapture is not ever the point of escape. Because there is a difference between wrath and tribulation. Both sides of this timing issue are wrong in that aspect. Why would a redeemed soul in Christ feel they need to be worthy to escape God's wrath Only unbelievers would need to pray to be found worthy. Being worthy would be the salvation experience. Because nothing a human could do would be worthy enough, only the grace of God. The Cross was God's wrath on the redeemed. Praying to be found worthy is not praying for a rapture to happen. The 144k will escape God's wrath, but certainly not the Great Tribulation.

Also the rapture and the Second Coming are the same event. The rapture happens because the church is the first harvest. There will be more harvests after the church. But the church is removed first. The church consists of those found worthy as souls under the alter, under the Atonement Covenant in Christ. The 5th Seal is the church being glorified as signified by putting on robes of white. The church alive on the earth at the Second Coming are glorified at the same time as the church currently in Paradise. There will not be a separate glorification of those on earth after God's wrath. The 5th Seal does not say "souls in heaven". The symbolism is about being redeemed and covered by the blood of the Lamb. Those alive on earth in Christ are just as redeemed as those already in Paradise with the Lord. Some of those on earth at the Second Coming will be revenged for being persecuted just as many who have been persecuted over the last 1993 years.

The problem is no one teaches the Second Coming is the 6th Seal. Except perhaps those who claim it is the 6th Seal, the 6th Trumpet, the 6th Thunder, and the 6th vial of God's wrath. Those who refuse to see that each set of events is a separate harvest. Some may even claim multiple Second Comings. Jesus is on the earth when the 144k are sealed. They are his Second Coming disciples like the original 12 in the first century. They will be with Jesus wherever He goes during the Trumpets and Thunders. Jesus and the 144k are the ones gathering the harvest along with the angels, and that happens after Jesus as King is on the earth, after the Second Coming.

 

[Timtofly]

Secondly, you are separating God's people from God's people. We are all one in Christ. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile. There is only 1 harvest. The wheat into his barn. The tares are bundled to be burned.

Being one in Christ and being the bride is the difference between literal and symbolic. The symbolism of a bride is the time of being seperate and not one. The rapture is not about the wheat and tares, because there is more than one harvest. Matthew 13 is not the rapture harvest. At the rapture, the lost are not gathered first, the church is.

"As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;"

That is not describing a rapture. That is saying the tares are removed, not the wheat. The barn is not necessarily heaven.

"Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

How is this a rapture if the tares are gathered first and taken away?

This is the final harvest. The church was the first harvest. Israel as the sheep and goats was the next harvest. The wheat and tares represents what is left of humanity after the church, and Israel has been removed. At this point only redeemed people are left to live on the earth during the Millennium. Any one else not found worthy (redeemed) are destroyed in The Winepress of God's Wrath.