The (potential) Treachery of Doctrine > My way, or the highway >

[David in NJ]

@Titus @Wrangler @David in NJ

This little exchange has demonstrated how dangerous black & white judgements are and how they cause division. Apollos held some truth; it only needed the missing pieces to make it complete.

Christians lack this type of honesty today because they are mostly fundamentalist in mindset = legalism.

F2F

AGREE

i hate leagalism

 

[David in NJ]

@Titus @Wrangler @David in NJ

This little exchange has demonstrated how dangerous black & white judgements are and how they cause division. Apollos held some truth; it only needed the missing pieces to make it complete.

Christians lack this type of honesty today because they are mostly fundamentalist in mindset = legalism.

F2F

AGREE

i hate leagalism

Yes, I highlighted the text in your post which you omitted to acknowledge (Post #65)

As I said in my earlier post. Apollos already had knowledge of Messiah and the principles of his coming...so he already held some truth...hence degrees of truth. He recevied further instruction and shown "the way" more accurately which means he on his way being in the way - just needed further information!

I'm curious how you can say "we have many Apollos' preaching today", which you didnt qualify, but from other posts its clear you believe Apollos was in total error which is clearly not the case.

If a person today is under instruction in things concerning God and Christ, just because they dont have the whole truth its doesnt mean what the know is error!

A lot to learn.

F2F

You said:" but from other posts its clear you believe Apollos was in total error which is clearly not the case."

i never said nor implied Apollos was in "total error"

Now if you can just let go of falsely accusing, you will be on the WAY.

 

[face2face]

AGREE

i hate leagalism

You said:" but from other posts its clear you believe Apollos was in total error which is clearly not the case."

i never said nor implied Apollos was in "total error"

Now if you can just let go of falsely accusing, you will be on the WAY.

Titus made some very harsh points, and it appeared like you were supporting them. If I misinterpreted you I apologise.
F2F

 

[David in NJ]

Titus made some very harsh points, and it appeared like you were supporting them. If I misinterpreted, you I apologise.
F2F

TRUE aspects of the scriptures that Titus posted i am in support of but not in condenscending upon Apollos.

However, Apollos needed guidance and this passage in Acts is super important which @Titus was seeking to bring out.

 

[Titus]

There are many Apollos preaching today.

You are speaking truth.
Apollos was a righteous man, he lived through the old testament into the new testament.
No one had the new testament Scriptures at this time.
They only had the old testament.
The new will and testament of Christ was still being revealed.
This is why Apollos was ignorant in some doctrine.

Today the completed revelation of God is written and packaged in all 39 books of the old, 27 books of the new.
Fully assembled in a convenient book you can carry easily wherever your feet take you.

Today we have an advantage over Apollos. We have the completed revelation of God.
Apollos had to have Aquila and Priscilla teach him orally (by word of mouth) for the new testament was not at that time in written form.

We can sympathize with Apollos but he was still in error when he baptized the 12 Ephesians into John's baptism.

The reason Aquila and Priscilla new more of Jesus' new testament gospel is because they had spent time with the apostle Paul learning from his preaching.

Romans 16:3,
- Greet Priscilla and Aquila my fellow workers in Christ Jesus

 

[David in NJ]

You are speaking truth.
Apollos was a righteous man, he lived through the old testament into the new testament.
No one had the new testament Scriptures at this time.
They only had the old testament.
The new will and testament of Christ was still being revealed.
This is why Apollos was ignorant in some doctrine.

Today the completed revelation of God is written and packaged in all 39 books of the old, 27 books of the new.
Fully assembled in a convenient book you can carry easily wherever your feet take you.

Today we have an advantage over Apollos. We have the completed revelation of God.
Apollos had to have Aquila and Priscilla teach him orally (by word of mouth) for the new testament was not at that time in written form.

We can sympathize with Apollos but he was still in error when he baptized the 12 Ephesians into John's baptism.

The reason Aquila and Priscilla new more of Jesus' new testament gospel is because they had spent time with the apostle Paul learning from his preaching.

Romans 16:3,
- Greet Priscilla and Aquila my fellow workers in Christ Jesus

100% my Brother = 100%

 

[face2face]

Exactly! You believe the pretence of doctrinal purity that is absent from the Bible IN TERMS OF A CONDITION OF SALVATION.

IDOLATORS like you make "doctrinal purity" more than what the Bible makes of it. Plain and Simple.

Again, I point out Jesus said, "Follow me" period. He did not say, "Follow me and believe this pure list of doctrines."

Wrangler, this post is one I have wrestled with for over 20 years. Clearly the diversity in Christian denominations around the world is at all-time highs. What is responsible knowledge? Where will God draw the line on who is enlightened and unenlightened? Now I am not wanting to encourage further arguments, but I believe these are questions worth discussing.

My position is to leave that (judgement) to God and for me to preach and teach those things I've been shown as truth.

For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17

Can you speak to this verse and its application?
Who, how and on what basis will judgement take place?
Some don’t believe in a judgement at all!
Some believe in Heaven going while others believe in a Kingdom on earth.
Some are trinitarians while others are Unitarians.
Some believe in a fiery place of torment while others believe in going to the grave.

I don’t want to start arguments over these teachings; just interested in how people perceive how God judge his people.

Thoughts?
F2F

 

[face2face]

Today we have an advantage over Apollos. We have the completed revelation of God.
Apollos had to have Aquila and Priscilla teach him orally (by word of mouth) for the new testament was not at that time in written form.

I agree with this - hence my post to wrangler...I prefer we not argue about various doctrines, but wouldn't it be nice if we could explore that Revelation together and tease out some agreeable points.
F2F

 

[Wrangler]

For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17

Can you speak to this verse and its application?
Who, how and on what basis will judgement take place?

Perhaps better as a separate thread. This thread is about the treachery of doctrines, generally. Your question is about a particular verse.

Let's face it, the Original Sin reveals that mankind has a God complex. We want to judge, believing our judgement is better than our Creator's. This is the answer to your last question.

I do believe in purgatory and this is a verse that supports that belief. God's household, by definition, is saved. So, what else could the judgement be but a purifying of those who put their faith in his son? The genius of God's way is humility first, which easily separates the wheat from the tares.

When I speak of Scripture, I speak with humility, saying things subjectively. For instance, this is how I take such and such. If my own personal insight is not persuasive, so be it. I still love the person and am still required to forgive them. I rest easy in the certain knowledge thay my salvation does not hinge on others believing all my doctrines are the true doctrines they should make their own. YMMV.

 

[face2face]

Do Not Pass Judgment on One Another
14 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.
Romans 14:1

Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.
Romans 14:13

11 Do not speak evil against one another, brothers.[a] The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. 12 There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?
James 4:11-12

Good verses.

I find James extremely confronting, as he is all about the Word in action. His teaching on pure religion and remaining unspotted from the World is a constant challenge to me. His guidance on where church wars are derived and their many causes, is enlightening to say the least. His Epistle would be one of the most practical of all the NT Epistles and while on the surface it appears they are less doctrinally focused, it has very deep roots in the wisdom books and the teachings of Christ.

I prepared a series on this many years ago and have never forgotten the severity of his wisdom.

You are right though we mustn’t sit in judgement of each other- James would want us to deal peaceably with one another in kindness edifying each other in the practical outworking of Christ's commands, after all, the Lord said "you are my friends if you do whatsoever I command you".

I think we would all agree this is challenging enough today.

F2f

 

[Wrangler]

the severity of his wisdom

I've heard this sort of expression before. I find it odd and guess it is driven because wisdom in theory is easier to accept than wisdom in action.

A woman today said she wants to eat right, looking at a lunch menu, as she chose the less nutritious option.

 

[St. SteVen]

That is why it is beneficial to use multiple versions sir, for understanding

ejgkataleivpw Egkataleipo (eng-kat-al-i'-po);
Word Origin: Greek, Verb, Strong #: 1459
abandon, desert
leave in straits, leave helpless
totally abandoned, utterly forsaken
to leave behind among, to leave surviving
KJV Word Usage and Count
forsake 7
leave 2

Heb 10:25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is ASV

You take that as a command?
Is there any valid reason to not attend church?
Assuming that is what you mean by assembling together.
Is the forum an assembling together?

 

[Keturah]

The "treachery" is in the propagandizing & prosyletising to their "CULT OF HERESIES" , aka their sect, or hall; which are in DIRECT OPPOSITION TO THE TRUTH OF GOD'S WORD!

Zero potential but hard-core fact!

 

[Johann]

The "treachery" is in the propagandizing & prosyletising to their "CULT OF HERESIES" , aka their sect, or hall; which are in DIRECT OPPOSITION TO THE TRUTH OF GOD'S WORD!

Zero potential but hard-core fact!

We need the Holy Spirit and discernment more than ever dear sister.
Shalom
Johann.

 

[Keturah]

We need the Holy Spirit and discernment more than ever dear sister.
Shalom
Johann.

ABSOLUTELY AMEN !

 

[Robert Gwin]

You take that as a command?
Is there any valid reason to not attend church?
Assuming that is what you mean by assembling together.
Is the forum an assembling together?

You take that as a command?

How could you forsake something that isn't a command. It is not an option.

Is there any valid reason to not attend church?

See you agree.

Is the forum an assembling together?

No! 1 Cor 1:10

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Is there any valid reason to not attend church?

See you agree.

I attend church now.
But I have met many, especially on religious forums, that do not attend.
They seem to have valid reasons not to, as do I. But I decided to stay.
I would never tell a person with valid reasons not to attend that they are COMMANDED to attend.
That would only drive them further away. Seems counterproductive to me.
What would you do? (seems obvious)

 

[Wrangler]

1 Cor 1:10

Nonsense! The verse is not and cannot be a command, which is why he states he "appeals" to the reader for their not to be divisions among us. Fact is, there always were divisions in the church.

For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human?​

​

5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth.​

1 Cor 3​

Are you not merely being human? AS IF us humans can be anything else but human! Being a Christian does not mean denying our humanity. We can only interact with division. We can only fellowship in strife, so help us God.

 

[Robert Gwin]

St. SteVen said:

Is there any valid reason to not attend church?

I attend church now.
But I have met many, especially on religious forums, that do not attend.
They seem to have valid reasons not to, as do I. But I decided to stay.
I would never tell a person with valid reasons not to attend that they are COMMANDED to attend.
That would only drive them further away. Seems counterproductive to me.
What would you do? (seems obvious)

I understand, but of course you have to attend God's church Isa 2:2-4, otherwise it is of no value.

 

[Cassandra]

I do believe in purgatory and this is a verse that supports that belief. God's household, by definition, is saved. So, what else could the judgement be but a purifying of those who put their faith in his son?

So you do not believe the grace of Christ is sufficient for you? You have to pay later as well? Not trying to be a brat,but purgatory is a place to refine. I thought Jesus did that when we put off the old man and become a new creature in Him. We are following the Lord and doing His will. That is sanctification. Your own works in purgatory will not save you.