When will the "sudden destruction" from which "they will not escape" referenced in 1 Thess 5:2-3 occur and what is the scope of it?

[Truth7t7]

I don't believe it will annihilate the earth, either,

The earth will be dissolved to its very elements at the return of Jesus Christ, it will be a New Heaven and Earth a new creation,, your belief is "False"

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-3KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

 

[rwb]

Do you think they are destroyed before they ask the question, or after?

"And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Yes Tim, they shall all be destroyed! That is exactly why they wonder who shall be able to stand on the Day of Him who sits on the throne, because only those who are found in the book of life shall NOT be cast into the lake of fire that is the second death. ALL of the DEAD shall be called to give account before God according to what is found written in the books, and the book of life. NONE of the DEAD shall be able to stand? Meaning whose lives shall be spared at the judgment throne of God, on that DAY none of the dead shall. The question is not asked so they might know, it is being asked because they DO KNOW what their fate shall be

Revelation 6:16 (KJV) And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Revelation 6:17 (KJV) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[rwb]

The sudden destruction" is found in 1 Thes. 5:3

"For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

This "sudden destruction" comes to Israel. It takes place at the mid-point of the Great Tribulation when the antichrist sits in the temple and declares himself to be God. This prophecy is directly pointed to Israel, with the characteristics of the unbelieving Gentiles at this time.

The problem with this statement is that you are assuming Paul is speaking of sudden destruction upon "them" as speaking of Israel. Because you've taken the verse out of context to prove an unbiblical opinion or preconception. We know who "them" is when we put the verse back in the context for which it is written. "Them", Paul says sudden destruction shall come upon are those who are asleep, because "them" are the children of darkness whom Paul warns are present in the church with the children of light (faithful), and children of the day. This is not pointing to the destruction coming to Israel, but destruction of ALL who are ungodly and in unbelief being destroyed just as suddenly as birth pains come upon a woman who is about to give birth. NONE of those who sleep and are in darkness shall escape on the day of God's great wrath.

1 Thessalonians 5:3-5 (KJV) For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

 

[rwb]

Those who come back with Christ at the Second Coming have not been Resurrected.

The Resurrection ONLY occurs at His Second Coming = 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep/died in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep/died.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
AFTER that we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Yes, those who come with Christ are those who have been resurrected. However, Scripture informs us that none shall be bodily resurrected before the hour coming in which bodies are physically resurrected either to resurrection life, or damnation. In what body will those who return with Christ come back with Him? Since there shall be NO bodily resurrection before an hour coming, how are they resurrected to life to return with Christ before being resurrected physically?

 

[rwb]

In 1 Cor. 1:8, it's referring to faith keeping you blameless before God until the Day of His gathering the believers, the Rapture.

1 Cor. 5:5, is referring to the sin of incest that one in the Church has committed. "delivering this person over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the say of the Lord Jesus" is the Church body separating themselves from this person in hopes he will see his error and repent.

Paul makes no distinction or difference when saying the day of the Lord and the day of Christ. Paul doesn't treat them at two separate days as you are.

 

[rwb]

Zechariah chapter 14 is Truth.

Demanding that Zechariah ch14 conforms to your belief system is religious rebellion.

Conforming to Christ is when we prostrate ourselves and cast our crowns before Him = never imposing our view in His Presence/Word.

Then why are you demanding we conform to your belief system regarding Zechariah 14? It doesn't seem as though you are doing what you demand of others, "prostrate ourselves and cast our own crowns before Him = never imposing our view in His Presence/Word"!

 

[rwb]

Placing the rapture BEFORE the Resurrection is sin.

Yes, it is, I agree! Because only those who have part in resurrection life before they physically die shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air at His coming again on the last day.

 

[rwb]

David, the Rapture and the Resurrection are one in the same.

Now you're confusing me? You earlier said those who have been resurrected shall return with the Christ when He returns. Now you say the rapture and resurrection are one in the same??? If you are speaking of the bodily resurrection of dead saints who shall be resurrected and changed to immortal and incorruptible flesh, then caught up (raptured) to meet the Lord in the air, then I could would say the rapture and resurrection are indeed one in the same.

Sorry Charlie, looking back I see I have confused you with David in NJ. But I'm still wondering if you agree with what I've said?

 

[rwb]

Excellent post.

The Saints in Heaven will only receive their Glorified Immortal Body at the Second Coming - 1 Thess 4:13-18
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words.

How are the saints in heaven after their body has died and returns to dust? Do you deny heaven is NOT a physical place, but is a spiritual place, the habitation of God, Who is Spirit and the heavenly angels who are also spirit beings and not physical beings in heaven?

 

[David in NJ]

Then why are you demanding we conform to your belief system regarding Zechariah 14? It doesn't seem as though you are doing what you demand of others, "prostrate ourselves and cast our own crowns before Him = never imposing our view in His Presence/Word"!

There is no "belief system" in regards to Zechariah ch14

The chapter is direct wording without symbolism or allegory.

 

[David in NJ]

How are the saints in heaven after their body has died and returns to dust? Do you deny heaven is NOT a physical place, but is a spiritual place, the habitation of God, Who is Spirit and the heavenly angels who are also spirit beings and not physical beings in heaven?

God made us spirit/soul/flesh body

1 Thess 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Only the flesh body dies - never our spirit/soul

Our flesh bodies die and are buried/sleep in the earth - those who are Saved = our spirit/soul go to Heaven with the Lord

Hebrews ch12
For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and thatg is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom, and storm; 19to a trumpet blast or to a voice that made its hearers beg that no further word be spoken. 20For they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned.”h 21The sight was so terrifying that even Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.”i

22Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to myriads of angels 23in joyful assembly, to the congregation of the firstborn, enrolled in heaven. You have come to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

 

[rwb]

Unsound, unbiblical speach coming from you.

"Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen."

But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?”
Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain.
But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

Exactly David! I'm glad you brought in this passage, because when read in context we find the body that we in Christ are raised to heaven with after our physical body dies is not natural, and of the earth, but is supernatural and of heaven. Paul writes:

1 Corinthians 15:44-49 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Whoever physically dies in Christ being physically dead, but raised a spiritual body that shall be as the heavenly bodies are. We shall then be the image of Christ as He is in heaven, spirit beings, as are the angels in heaven. Why? Because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, and our physical bodies will not be made incorruptible and immortal until the hour coming on the last day when the last trumpet sounds and our physical body is raised to live again forever.

1 Corinthians 15:50 (KJV) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

It is these spiritual bodies that return with Christ when He comes again on the last day David. The spiritual bodies shall then be reunited with our changed, now mortal and incorruptible body that shall be fit for everlasting life with Christ on the new earth.

 

[rwb]

God made us spirit/soul/flesh body

1 Thess 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Only the flesh body dies - never our spirit/soul

Our flesh bodies die and are buried/sleep in the earth - those who are Saved = our spirit/soul go to Heaven with the Lord

Hebrews ch12
For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and thatg is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom, and storm; 19to a trumpet blast or to a voice that made its hearers beg that no further word be spoken. 20For they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned.”h 21The sight was so terrifying that even Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.”i

22Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to myriads of angels 23in joyful assembly, to the congregation of the firstborn, enrolled in heaven. You have come to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Man consists of physical body of dust of the earth, and spirit breath of life, that which gives life to our body, and the two parts together became a "living soul." Solomon tells us that when our body dies, it is our spirit as an incomplete (without physical body) living soul that returns to God who gave it (Ecc 12:7). Our spirit is alive even though our body has died because the spirits of those who physically die IN Christ, return to God after death alive through the Spirit from Christ in us. That is the Spirit we receive when we are born again. No man after physical death shall be spiritually alive after physical death unless while alive they have been born again! Because to have the Spirit is to have eternal spiritual life through Him forever. And physical death will not change that fact. Because that which is born of flesh is flesh, but that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. For it is the Spirit that gives us life (quickens) the flesh profits nothing.

John 3:5-8 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Once again, it is the spirit of man that ascended to heaven after our body of flesh is dead, IF we died in Christ. And the spirit alive in heaven returns with Christ on the last day. This is depicting the first resurrection of the dead that every human MUST have part in to overcome the second death. Because we were spiritually dead in trespasses and sins until we were made alive through Christ's Spirit in us. We, who have part in the first resurrection spiritually by grace through faith in Christ, before death, have overcome the second death, so when our spirit returns with Christ, we shall again be complete body & spirit a complete living soul, not to live on this earth for one thousand years, but to live with Christ forever on the new earth.

 

[David in NJ]

Man consists of physical body of dust of the earth, and spirit breath of life, that which gives life to our body, and the two parts together became a "living soul." Solomon tells us that when our body dies, it is our spirit as an incomplete (without physical body) living soul that returns to God who gave it (Ecc 12:7). Our spirit is alive even though our body has died because the spirits of those who physically die IN Christ, return to God after death alive through the Spirit from Christ in us. That is the Spirit we receive when we are born again. No man after physical death shall be spiritually alive after physical death unless while alive they have been born again! Because to have the Spirit is to have eternal spiritual life through Him forever. And physical death will not change that fact. Because that which is born of flesh is flesh, but that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. For it is the Spirit that gives us life (quickens) the flesh profits nothing.

John 3:5-8 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Once again, it is the spirit of man that ascended to heaven after our body of flesh is dead, IF we died in Christ. And the spirit alive in heaven returns with Christ on the last day. This is depicting the first resurrection of the dead that every human MUST have part in to overcome the second death. Because we were spiritually dead in trespasses and sins until we were made alive through Christ's Spirit in us. We, who have part in the first resurrection spiritually by grace through faith in Christ, before death, have overcome the second death, so when our spirit returns with Christ, we shall again be complete body & spirit a complete living soul, not to live on this earth for one thousand years, but to live with Christ forever on the new earth.

You have much Truth here mixed with some error - this is called the 'Blender" where man blends error with Truth to form a religious opinion.

Stay with the Pure Truth of God's words - Proverbs 30:5-6

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.

Return to Post #351 and nourish yourself on Pure Scripture where not a word of mine is added and not a word of God is taken away.

When you do, the Peace of the Holy Spirit will rise in your heart, mind, soul and spirit.

 

[rwb]

You have much Truth here mixed with some error - this is called the 'Blender" where man blends error with Truth to form a religious opinion.

Stay with the Pure Truth of God's words - Proverbs 30:5-6

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.

Return to Post #351 and nourish yourself on Pure Scripture where not a word of mine is added and not a word of God is taken away.

When you do, the Peace of the Holy Spirit will rise in your heart, mind, soul and spirit.

It would not be beneficial for me to return to a previous reply without knowing what you consider to be error in my reply? Please simply show what you believe to be erroneously applied. Since you highlighted "do not add to His words", I assume you believe I have done this. Therefore you should be able to clearly point that out?

 

[David in NJ]

It would not be beneficial for me to return to a previous reply without knowing what you consider to be error in my reply? Please simply show what you believe to be erroneously applied. Since you highlighted "do not add to His words", I assume you believe I have done this. Therefore you should be able to clearly point that out?

Only our flesh dies and is buried = "sleeps in the earth"

Our spirit/soul never dies and is fully alive and conscious after the physical body dies.

Revelation 6:9-11
When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.


Revelation 7:9-16
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying:

“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”

Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat;
for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

These are the living Saints in Heaven after physical death.

 

[rwb]

Only our flesh dies and is buried = "sleeps in the earth"

Our spirit/soul never dies and is fully alive and conscious after the physical body dies.

Revelation 6:9-11
When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.


Revelation 7:9-16
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying:

“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”

Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat;
for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

These are the living Saints in Heaven after physical death.

It is the spirit of living saints in heaven, that ascended to heaven after physical death, a spiritual body. And this is what returns with Christ to be reunited to an immortal & incorruptible physical body that shall be forever.

 

[David in NJ]

It is the spirit of living saints in heaven, that ascended to heaven after physical death, a spiritual body. And this is what returns with Christ to be reunited to an immortal & incorruptible physical body that shall be forever.

Yes, these are the spirits and souls of the living Saints who had died and their physical/flesh body was buried/sleeps in the earth.

These are the Saints who Return with Christ for the Resurrection of their dead bodies that will be instantly be changed and transformed into His Glorious Likeness = 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians chapter 15 and 1 John 3:1-3

 

[rwb]

Yes, these are the spirits and souls of the living Saints who had died and their physical/flesh body was buried/sleeps in the earth.

These are the Saints who Return with Christ for the Resurrection of their dead bodies that will be instantly be changed and transformed into His Glorious Likeness = 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians chapter 15 and 1 John 3:1-3

Exactly! This is what I have been hoping to hear you say. Having agreed the saints in heaven are living spiritual souls, can you elaborate on how they are spirits alive in heaven after they have physically died? Are you reluctant to say they are spirits alive in heaven after they have physically died because in life they were born again of the Spirit? IOW do you accept the first resurrection we must have part in to overcome the second death, thereby live forever is by grace through faith in Christ when we are born again of His Spirit?

 

[David in NJ]

Exactly! This is what I have been hoping to hear you say. Having agreed the saints in heaven are living spiritual souls, can you elaborate on how they are spirits alive in heaven after they have physically died? Are you reluctant to say they are spirits alive in heaven after they have physically died because in life they were born again of the Spirit? IOW do you accept the first resurrection we must have part in to overcome the second death, thereby live forever is by grace through faith in Christ when we are born again of His Spirit?

YES - These are ONLY Born-Again saints = John 1:9-13 , John 3:1-8 , 1 Peter chapter 1

YES - All who are part of the First Resurrection overcome the Second Death - Revelation 2:11 and 20:6

YES - By His Grace we receive His Mercy, Born-Again, Holy Spirit and Eternal Life = John 11:1-27 and John chapter 17