Olivet Discourse revisited

[Randy Kluth]

Contextually the great trib Christ spoke of was a time of persecution of Christians during the same time the Beast would reign (usually called the AC). It was never a Jewish tribulation (Judaism).

I respectfully disagree, though I do agree in the sense that this tribulation included Christian persecution. It's just that I think Jesus was speaking of Jewish Christians who would be persecuted initially.

I don't see how anybody can get around Jesus identifying this "great tribulation" with the Jewish People. I've quoted it a hundred times:

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

When Jesus spoke of the "times of the Gentiles" he was speaking to Jewish believers. He was not speaking to Gentiles about Gentiles!

The whole reason Jesus indicated God's wrath was coming down upon Israel was because they were rejecting their own Messiah. In rejecting Christ they were rejecting Christians too!

So yes, this involves Christians being persecuted. But the emphasis is on God's judgment against unbelieving Jews who were rejecting their Messiah. They would lose their temple and their holy city. And they would lose their land going into an age-long Diaspora. That is just what the passage says!

This made it even more difficult for believing Jews because not only would they be persecuted by the unbelieving majority in Israel, but they would suffer the loss of their land along with their unbelieving compatriots who brought all this judgment down upon them.

 

[WPM]

Reformed Preterist Escgatology is wrong on its interpretation, concerning the future events seen below

Future Events Unfulfilled

1.) Daniel's AOD Matthew 24:15
2.) The Great Tribulation Matthew 24:21
3.) The Literal Human (Man Of Sin/The Beast) 2 Thessaloians 2:1-3, Revelation Chapter 13
4.) Literal Prophets Returned In The (Two Witnesses) Revelation Chapter 11
5.) The Lord's Second Coming In Fire And Final Judgement Luke 17:29-30 (The End)

Do the 7 heads belong to the beast?
Do the 10 horns belong to the beast?

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, this had me a bit perplexed, because I'd been told for years that this referred to the rebirth of the nation Israel, that the "fig tree" represented Israel. However, nothing in the prophecy specifically identified the fig tree with Israel, so that it is *not* a matter of biblical doctrine. Instead, we read that these are specific indications that judgment was coming to Israel.

So how could the blossoming of a fig tree represent the coming of judgment? Wouldn't it rather signal the advent of Spring, which is a positive occasion? Normally yes. However, Jesus commonly used the theme of Spring and Fall as seasons in which judgment happened regardless.

Luke 23.31 For if people do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?”

Eze 17.24 All the trees of the forest will know that I the Lord bring down the tall tree and make the low tree grow tall. I dry up the green tree and make the dry tree flourish. “‘I the Lord have spoken, and I will do it.’”

The advent of Spring is an indication that something is developing, or progressing towards a particular end. And Jesus began his Discourse by declaring the end was the destruction of the temple.

So the things that were developing he called "birth pains." Again, a birth is normally a positive development. However, the Bible also speaks of the negation of birth by judgment.

Hosea 9.14 Give them, Lord— what will you give them? Give them wombs that miscarry and breasts that are dry.

I'll answer the rest of your post later...

What does Spring have to do with the Second Coming?

Is the Second Coming supposed to be Summer?

The parable is not a botanical science lesson. The parable is a figurative account that heralds the time of the Second Coming.

Now you can use 2 World Wars to herald the Second Coming. Or you can use the blooming of the fig tree. Was there a parable of the fig tree and even other trees? Or was there a mention of 2 WW's?

You do realize that the 2 WW's was the realization of several new ME nations, and the start of the break up of the British Empire?

 

[Timtofly]

No Scriptural evidence for that at all.

Luke 21:37
...at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives.

No mention or even implication of speaking/discourse at night.

It is called the Olivet Discourse, not the Temple Discourse.

6am to 6pm was their day. 6pm to 6am was their night. Night was called evening. "Evening and morning was the first day."

 

[Randy Kluth]

What does Spring have to do with the Second Coming?

In my view, Spring had to do with expectation that Messiah would come and deliver Israel. Israel would be reborn into a spiritual people, free of the tyranny and bondage of Rome. But that "Spring" disappointed. And the "baby" that was supposed to be born was aborted.

Is the Second Coming supposed to be Summer?

The seasons of the year do have symbolism, but context determines how they are used. A disappointing Spring would be one where Israel expected their Messiah to save them. But they didn't repent, and they weren't saved.

What did happen, on God's calendar, however, was that the Church was born. So Salvation began a new year in other nations.

The parable is not a botanical science lesson. The parable is a figurative account that heralds the time of the Second Coming.

A parable need not be about Christ's 2nd Coming. The Disciples asked about the relationship between his prophecy of Jerusalem's demise and their expectation of a Messianic Salvation. Jesus spelled out the difference by stating that the current generation would fall due to their lack of repentance. National Salvation would be after a long Jewish Diaspora.

 

[Truth7t7]

More avoidance. That is who you are and that is what you do. Address the evidence which exposes your theology.

False reformed preterist repetitous claims, deal with reality in the literal, non-preterist world

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus called this the "great tribulation" of the Jewish People. And yet, the term "the great tribulation" has been extracted from this and misapplied to the Reign of Antichrist.

Luke 21 is all about the judgment of the Jewish People in the present era. As Paul said, their downfall has become an occasion for the rest of the nations. God is giving all nations opportunity to adopt His laws for their states and nations. This means this chapter should be read with a soteriological notion in mind, and not just with an interest to "crystal ball reading."

This is not Jacob's trouble nor the time of "great tribulation" for Jewish people. The Gentiles are still trampling Jerusalem and the Temple Mount.

Only Luke's account happened in the first century and is still ongoing. The fulness of the Gentiles will not be complete until the Second Coming.

"For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

This is not the days of tribulation. This is the days of vengeance.

 

[Timtofly]

But if you begin with a failure to understand Jesus' main idea, which is the imminent destruction of the temple in his generation, you may get confused about what "all these things" meant by Jesus? You might think he was saying he was going to Come Again in his own generation. Obviously, that didn't happen, and I don't believe that's what he meant.

One can be alive today and still claim all will be fulfilled, even past events already fulfulled like the Cross and 70AD.

Jesus talked more about the Second Coming, and the persecution of the church, than 70AD. Not sure how the least mentioned point was Jesus' main idea. Perhaps that is the error of your interpretation?

In all accounts only the generation who sees the parable of the fig tree is the generation being talked about. If you misinterpret the parable, you will get the whole OD wrong.

 

[WPM]

False reformed preterist repetitous claims, deal with reality in the literal, non-preterist world

LOL. I will take this as the white flag for your Schofield doctrine. You have no answer to biblical arguments. All you have is childish name-calling. Standing for Reformed doctrine is better than promoting Romish error. Your Jesuit beliefs have just went up in a puff of smoke.

 

[Timtofly]

In my view, Spring had to do with expectation that Messiah would come and deliver Israel. Israel would be reborn into a spiritual people, free of the tyranny and bondage of Rome. But that "Spring" disappointed. And the "baby" that was supposed to be born was aborted.

The seasons of the year do have symbolism, but context determines how they are used. A disappointing Spring would be one where Israel expected their Messiah to save them. But they didn't repent, and they weren't saved.

What did happen, on God's calendar, however, was that the Church was born. So Salvation began a new year in other nations.

A parable need not be about Christ's 2nd Coming. The Disciples asked about the relationship between his prophecy of Jerusalem's demise and their expectation of a Messianic Salvation. Jesus spelled out the difference by stating that the current generation would fall due to their lack of repentance. National Salvation would be after a long Jewish Diaspora.

It was a parable about a fig tree, not spring, nor a birth. The fig tree blooming pointed to a season, but spring and summer were still the symbolism of the parable. The birth of the fig tree means what? Jerusalem's restoration. Not an abortion, that is some messed up prophecy. You may be implying, Jesus is a false prophet?

Jerusalem is still in the blooming stage, no fruit until the Second Coming.

 

[ewq1938]

When Jesus spoke of the "times of the Gentiles" he was speaking to Jewish believers. He was not speaking to Gentiles about Gentiles!

He was speaking to believers about what believers would suffer. The GT is against Christians, not those of Judaism. Judaism and all religions will accept the AC in the GT. Only some Christians will reject the AC. The rest will take part in the Apostasy, joining those of all other religions in false god worship.

 

[Truth7t7]

Do the 7 heads belong to the beast?
Do the 10 horns belong to the beast?

Your Mr. Avoidance

You have been shown several times (The Scarlet Beast) is a (Symbolic Metaphor)

This (Metaphor) is explained and interpreted in the chapter following

"Your question has been answered" it will be copy paste from here on regarding this repeated question

Jesus Is The Lord

1.) The 7 heads are 7 literal mountains upon this earth

2.) The 10 horns are 10 future literal kings

3.) The Woman sitting on this beast is the great city Jerusalem where Jesus was crucified

4.) (The Beast) is a future literal king upon this earth the 8th, a human man

 

[WPM]

Your Mr. Avoidance

You have been shown several times (The Scarlet Beast) is a (Symbolic Metaphor)

This (Metaphor) is explained and interpreted in the chapter following

"Your question has been answered" it will be copy paste from here on regarding this repeated question

Jesus Is The Lord

1.) The 7 heads are 7 literal mountains upon this earth

2.) The 10 horns are 10 future literal kings

3.) The Woman sitting on this beast is the great city Jerusalem where Jesus was crucified

4.) (The Beast) is a future literal king upon this earth the 8th, a human man

Isn't it interesting in life how the perpetrator always attributes to the victim what pertains to the perpetrator? That is called projection. It is you that refuses to address the many contradictions in your theories.

Why can you not answer simple straightforward questions? The Cults do that! It is because it would force you to admit your reasoning is completely wrong.

Is the Revelation 13 beast the same beast as the one in Revelation 17 and 19?

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is not Jacob's trouble nor the time of "great tribulation" for Jewish people. The Gentiles are still trampling Jerusalem and the Temple Mount.

Only Luke's account happened in the first century and is still ongoing. The fulness of the Gentiles will not be complete until the Second Coming.

"For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

This is not the days of tribulation. This is the days of vengeance.

I don't think we can argue this point anymore. I quoted the basis for my belief that the "Great Tribulation" is the Jewish Diaspora of the NT age. You admit that Luke says something to that effect.

But then you deny that the Great Tribulation applies to Jews and exists today. I can't give you anymore than Luke 21's claim that the "Great Tribulation" is the punishment God inflicted upon the Jews beginning in Jesus' generation and continuing until the end of the age.

I have nothing more to add to this. If we can't agree on what Jesus said in Luke 21, there is no reason to continue discussing it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

He was speaking to believers about what believers would suffer. The GT is against Christians, not those of Judaism. Judaism and all religions will accept the AC in the GT. Only some Christians will reject the AC. The rest will take part in the Apostasy, joining those of all other religions in false god worship.

As I just told Timothy, my position is based on Luke 21, where Jesus explains that God's wrath is coming upon the *Jewish People* in his generation. This is, in my opinion, entirely about God's punishment upon the Jewish People. The Great Tribulation is to be experienced by the Jewish People for continuing in their sin and for rejecting their Messiah.

We do agree that this period of time brings affliction upon Jewish Christians, as well. But the main gist, in my view, is that punishment is coming upon the majority of the Jewish People to the degree their temple worship is to be destroyed, and their people removed from their land.

The Great Tribulation is an exercise of *God's Wrath" against the Jewish People. The suffering of Christians among the Jewish People is a biproduct of God's punishment of the nation, though not directed against Christians. They are unfortunate casualties who suffer by proximity, just as Jesus innocently suffered by living in sinful Israel.

Since we cannot agree on these points, there's no sense in arguing it any further.

 

[Randy Kluth]

It was a parable about a fig tree, not spring, nor a birth. The fig tree blooming pointed to a season, but spring and summer were still the symbolism of the parable. The birth of the fig tree means what? Jerusalem's restoration. Not an abortion, that is some messed up prophecy. You may be implying, Jesus is a false prophet?

Jerusalem is still in the blooming stage, no fruit until the Second Coming.

I gave you the pertinent Scripture references. The passage mentions birth pains, implying *birth.* The passage mentions a fig tree blossoming, which implies Spring.

Both of these elements are treated in the OT in both negative and positive ways. Since Jesus began this Discourse with a negative, judgmental tone, he is, I believe, applying birth as a kind of "miscarriage." And he is applying Spring as a kind of false expectation of imminent national salvation.

Luke 17.20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed."

Luke 19.11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once.

If we cannot agree on any element of my arguments, there's absolutely no sense in pursuing it further. I've never said you have to agree. But if we can't even recognize each other's arguments, then we're just arguing past each other.

 

[Randy Kluth]

One can be alive today and still claim all will be fulfilled, even past events already fulfulled like the Cross and 70AD.

Jesus talked more about the Second Coming, and the persecution of the church, than 70AD. Not sure how the least mentioned point was Jesus' main idea. Perhaps that is the error of your interpretation?

In all accounts only the generation who sees the parable of the fig tree is the generation being talked about. If you misinterpret the parable, you will get the whole OD wrong.

To me the context of the Olivet Discourse is all about God's imminent judgment to fall upon Israel. That is, in my view, the main idea.

The question about the 2nd Coming came from the Disciples, and was not Jesus' main point. He did respond to it, but he handled it by indicating that far from being only a positive thing, the 2nd Coming will be negative like the imminent judgment he was predicted will come upon Israel in his generation.

Both the 70 AD scenario and the 2nd Coming would be great judgments for Israel, though certainly not just for Israel. The Jewish People thought Messiah would come to judge the world on their behalf. Jesus corrected this by saying that Jews would not come out unscathed by God's punishments--all would suffer God's punishments who do not repent of their sins.

The main idea, therefore, is not the 2nd Coming and trying to predict when he will come. Rather, it is a warning to Israel and to the world to repent of their sins to avoid divine wrath that is coming upon the world, both in the present day and in the final judgment.

 

[Zao is life]

I don't suffer any illusions about being able to change many minds, but I still think it's worth the effort. I've been studying this many years, and it really seems to be a headache in the study of biblical prophecy. Way back in the early 70s I read Hal Lindsey's book, "The Late Great Planet Earth," and really enjoyed it. He saw amazing coincidences between the news of our time and biblical prophecies that seem to be coming to precise fulfillment.

Messiah shall be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; Daniel 9:26

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that kill the prophets, and stone them which are sent unto you, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and all of you would not!
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say to you, You shall not see Me from now on until you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord."
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him in order to show him the buildings of the temple.
And Jesus said unto them, See all of you not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." (Daniel 9:26-27; Matthew 23:37-24: 2).

The chapter divisions and verse numbers in the Bible were only inserted into the text in 1227 A.D.

In Matthew's gospel, the subject of the destruction of the city and temple and the woe to come upon the scribes and Pharisees, begins in Matthew 23:13, and continues until Matthew 24:2. Jesus was standing in the temple courtyard when He said these things, speaking to the scribes and Pharisees about the coming destruction of the city and the temple.

Then He came out of the temple, and once outside, His disciples famously pointed out the magnificence of the temple buildings (that Jesus had just told the scribes and Pharisees was going to be destroyed). Matthew 24:1-2 records the fact that when Jesus came out of the temple, He repeated to His disciples what He had just told the Pharisees - and this agrees with what Daniel 9:26-27 said about the destruction of both the city and sanctuary after the coming of the Messiah.

NEW LOCATION, NEW AUDIENCE, NEW CONTEXT

Then Jesus walked down the mountain, and crossed through the Kidron Valley to the Mount of Olives opposite the Temple Mount, walked to the top, and sat down on the Mount of Olives. His audience was now lo longer the scribes and Pharisees, but His disciples.

Once having reached the top of the Mount of Olives on the same day, the disciples asked Him:

1. When the destruction of the temple would come; and
2. What would be the sign of His return and of the end of the Age.

First thing Jesus mentions after birth-pains is the saints being delivered up to tribulation and killed and being hated of all nations for His name's sake, and the gospel being preached in all the world as a witness to all nations.

Then, in Matthew 24:15, He mentions a different abomination to the abominations mentioned in Daniel 9:26-27.

The type of this other abomination of desolation standing in the holy place (Mat 24:15) was the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place written about in Daniel 8:11; Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11, which was placed in the holy place by Antiochus IV Epiphanes, but did not result in the destruction either of the city or of the sanctuary. The antitype of will likewise not result in the destruction of the city (New Jerusalem or the bride of Christ) or the sanctuary (God's New Testament Temple).

2 Thessalonians 2:4 tells us more because the first is the type of the last.

What is written in Matthew 24:15-51 relates to the tribulation of the disciples of Jesus that Jesus began to speak about in Matthew 24:9. The location where Jesus gave this sermon, His audience, and the context, as well as the words "and, but, because, therefore, for" etc which join the whole passage together from verse Matthew 24:9 should make this obvious (unfortunately many saints choose to ignore the grammar and the context and the audience).

What is written in Matthew 23:37 to Matthew 24:2 relates to what Jesus told the Pharisees about the coming destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in Matthew 23. It's the same as what is written in Luke 21:20-24, where Luke 21:23 specifically mentions that event as a time of great distress and wrath - not tribulation - coming upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

But the persecution of the saints and their deliverance at the end of the age mentioned in Luke 21:12-19 & 27-28 is also mentioned in Matthew 24:9-31.

In Matthew 24:3 Jesus is in a different location and speaking to a different audience than He was in Matthew 23:37 to Matthew 24:2. There are no chapter divisions or verse numbers in the original text so we need to look at location, audience, and context. In Matthew 24:15 the context is tribulation - the tribulation of the disciples of Jesus. Mat 24:15 has nothing to do with the Jerusalem temple. The holy place is the New Testament temple, i.e the church.

 

[ewq1938]

As I just told Timothy, my position is based on Luke 21, where Jesus explains that God's wrath is coming upon the *Jewish People* in his generation.

Jesus didn't say "God's wrath" and most of what he said was to happen to Christians:

Luk 21:10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
Luk 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
Luk 21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
Luk 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
Luk 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
Luk 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
Luk 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.


"you" here is to those who follow Christ, not those who reject him. As Matthew and Mark show (in their ODs) the persecution is against Christians. There will be vengeance against non-Christians (the wrath of God), but it comes after the GT has ended as shown in Rev 11 when the last trump sounds.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Here it clearly states that God's wrath has come (arrives) after the 7th trump sounds. Clearly God's wrath hadn't been coming for a long time before this or else the statement would be meaningless.

This is, in my opinion, entirely about God's punishment upon the Jewish People. The Great Tribulation is to be experienced by the Jewish People for continuing in their sin and for rejecting their Messiah.

I don't see any punishment until the 7th trump, when the GT is over. That means the GT is persecution against Christians as Luke, Mark and Matthew plainly speak of.

We do agree that this period of time brings affliction upon Jewish Christians, as well. But the main gist, in my view, is that punishment is coming upon the majority of the Jewish People to the degree their temple worship is to be destroyed, and their people removed from their land.

That's a prophecy unrelated to the GT. You are mixing prophecies.

The Great Tribulation is an exercise of *God's Wrath" against the Jewish People.

Not according to scripture. The Great Tribulation is an exercise of *satan's Wrath" against the Christians.

 

[Zao is life]

Lindsey is a hyperfuturist. So are you. Why aren't you applauding him? Adultery does not invalidate hyperfuturism, because hyperfuturism is already invalid.

I'm in total disagreement with your post but I really appreciated the humor.