Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.

[Jack]

You're undoubtedly going to be seething in anger when you are in God's kingdom and you see that God healed and saved EVERYONE!

Will you march to God's throne to complain?

Give it up Pat, you have ZERO Scripture to back you. None! "Eternal life" is FOREVER and so is "eternal punishment". I've read about 40 English Bibles and they all say you're wrong, including your fav Young's! You've been duped by Satan.

 

[Patrick1966]

Just the same, "into the ages of the ages" means what I've said. This is the "periods of time that contain the periods of time", or in other words, the Koine Greek expression of forever.

If you define these words according to your theological conclusions you'll reach the wrong sum. God works in ages, God doesn't work in ages, no matter what you say in that regard, it doesn't change the meaning of the words.

Did you want to look at the Matthew passage you are saying is mistranslated?

Much love!

If you don't believe 1 Corinthians 15 then you won't believe any of the other scripture either. You might as well be a Catholic and create your own religion.

 

[Patrick1966]

Give it up Pat, you have ZERO Scripture to back you. None! "Eternal life" is FOREVER and so is "eternal punishment". I've read about 40 English Bibles and they all say you're wrong, including your fav Young's! You've been duped by Satan.

 

[marks]

If you don't believe 1 Corinthians 15 then you won't believe any of the other scripture either. You might as well be a Catholic and create your own religion.

I guess you are done with discussing those passages, and their supposed mistranslations?

Much love!

 

[Jack]

View attachment 31591

Of course you have no answer. You're totally wrong. The Bible says so.

 

[Keiw]

Jesus said, "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever".

Amen Jesus!

Symbolism. Gods justice scales makes that statement symbolism.
Deut 32:4--ALL of Gods ways are justice---Doyou understand perfect justice? God taught it to you--An eye for an eye= perfect balance on Gods justice scales.
So for 70-100 years of an unrepented sinful life, God could not or would not punish one for trillions x trillions x trillions of never ending years of suffering. There is no balance in that scenario. Only a sadist would create a literal eternal suffering. Only blind guides that do not know God teach it as literal.
This is the symbolism= As each new day dawns in Gods kingdom, those destroyed( not allowed in) miss each day, miss each day of Gods love-it never ends--likened to be an eternal suffering.

 

[Jack]

Symbolism. Gods justice scales makes that statement symbolism.
Deut 32:4--ALL of Gods ways are justice---Doyou understand perfect justice? God taught it to you--An eye for an eye= perfect balance on Gods justice scales.
So for 70-100 years of an unrepented sinful life, God could not or would not punish one for trillions x trillions x trillions of never ending years of suffering. There is no balance in that scenario. Only a sadist would create a literal eternal suffering. Only blind guides that do not know God teach it as literal.
This is the symbolism= As each new day dawns in Gods kingdom, those destroyed( not allowed in) miss each day, miss each day of Gods love-it never ends--likened to be an eternal suffering.

Is "eternal life" also "symbolism"?

 

[Keiw]

Is "eternal life" also "symbolism"?

No, its a reality showing God isn't a sadist but a God of love. Only to the faithful who have entered through the narrow gate=Few Jesus said would find that road that leads off into life. The problem is FEW listen to Jesus or even know what he actually taught.
Matt 28:19-20--teach them ALL the things i have commanded you. 99% of all religion claiming to be christian do NOT do that.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

God isn't a sadist

What’s that got to do with God’s righteous judgment against the wicked?

Its due justice for the haters of God to suffer for eternity.

 

[Keiw]

What’s that got to do with God’s righteous judgment against the wicked?

Its due justice for the haters of God to suffer for eternity.

Gods justice = an eye for an eye= perfect balance. He could NOT punish one for trillions x trillions x trillions of never ending years for 70-100 years of an unrepented life.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Is "eternal life" also "symbolism"?

First, the words "night and day" and "for ever and ever" is taken from Isaiah 34:10, and we realize that the smoke of Edom will not go up for all eternity seeing Jesus said Heaven and Earth will not pass away and seeing Revelation 22:1 says that the Earth will pass away. You cannot have a city burning and up in smoke for all eternity if there is no planet to support that to happen; hence, why it is a metaphor.

Second, just so you may know, the eternal punishment mentioned in Matthew 25:46 is about how it is a one-time punishment of destruction (i.e., everlasting destruction - 2 Thess. 1:9), which has eternal consequences. Hebrews 6:2 says that there is a thing called "eternal Judgment." It's a one-time Judgment that has eternal consequences. It is similar to Matthew 25:46. It is a one-time punishment with eternal consequences. So in Hebrews 6:2: Ot does not mean God will judge everyone saved and unsaved for all eternity. But of course, you pick and choose what you want to see.

Three, you are not addressing our friend's moral dilemma. You just slide that one under the carpet and hope never to really deal with it. I know. I used to be in your position in defending ECT, and it was a hollow pursuit. When I used to defend ECT, I did admit that this was a weak point of ECT. I did not know how to explain the moral problem. Now, I see why. Things are so much clearer now.

 

[Jack]

No, its a reality showing God isn't a sadist but a God of love. Only to the faithful who have entered through the narrow gate=Few Jesus said would find that road that leads off into life. The problem is FEW listen to Jesus or even know what he actually taught.
Matt 28:19-20--teach them ALL the things i have commanded you. 99% of all religion claiming to be christian do NOT do that.

"Eternal life", "eternal punishment", same Greek word. You're not even being close to consistent!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Gods justice = an eye for an eye= perfect balance. He could NOT punish one for trillions x trillions x trillions of never ending years

 

[Jack]

First, the words "night and day" and "for ever and ever" is taken from Isaiah 34:10, and we realize that the smoke of Edom will not go up for all eternity seeing Jesus said Heaven and Earth will not pass away and seeing Revelation 22:1 says that the Earth will pass away. You cannot have a city burning and up in smoke for all eternity if there is no planet to support that to happen; hence, why it is a metaphor.

Second, just so you may know, the eternal punishment mentioned in Matthew 25:46 is about how it is a one-time punishment of destruction (i.e., everlasting destruction - 2 Thess. 1:9), which has eternal consequences. Hebrews 6:2 says that there is a thing called "eternal Judgment." It's a one-time Judgment that has eternal consequences. It is similar to Matthew 25:46. It is a one-time punishment with eternal consequences. So in Hebrews 6:2: Ot does not mean God will judge everyone saved and unsaved for all eternity. But of course, you pick and choose what you want to see.

Three, you are not addressing our friend's moral dilemma. You just slide that one under the carpet and hope never to really deal with it. I know. I used to be in your position in defending ECT, and it was a hollow pursuit. When I used to defend ECT, I did admit that this was a weak point of ECT. I did not know how to explain the moral problem. Now, I see why. Things are so much clearer now.

Those who burn in Hell "forever and ever" will wish they "ceased to exist"!

 

[Patrick1966]

"Eternal life", "eternal punishment", same Greek word. You're not even being close to consistent!

 

[Raccoon1010]

I like having spaces where you can have an actual dialogue and discuss and counter argue your points without 20 pages of stuff plopped down.

These are a few reasons why hell does not mean what so many thinks it does now days.

Matthew 25:41
New American Standard Bible
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

so the only aspect in this verse that leads you to anything eternal is the words eternal fire. The first thing to point out is that it says the fire is eternal. It does not mentioned anything about humans or angels being eternal. For a fact the Bible says only Yahweh is immortal.

1 Timothy 6:16
New American Standard Bible
16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

so only our god is naturally immortal. In order for something else to be immortal they have to be granted eternal life. Angels, not humans naturally have eternal life. Not even our spirits. But the Bible does say he will give some eternal life? Does he give eternal life to the saved or to the unsaved? What does he give the unsaved? He gives them the wages of sin which is death. They are never given eternal life.

Also it’s good to examine this concept of eternal fire. A eternal fire with endless smoke correct? So what does that mean? Is it literal? Or is it something God used metaphorically?

Jude 7
New American Standard Bible
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

so here it says that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah also experienced this eternal fire. This hyperlinks is back to the story in genesis .

Those places are not still on fire. Those places have not been on fire for thousands of years. The fire burned the city all up. So eternal fire seems to be war poetry for destruction.

with a eternal fire we would expect endless smoke. We see this same “ war speech” used for Edom.

Isaiah 34:6-12
New American Standard Bible
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood,
It drips with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah,
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 Wild oxen will also fall with them
And young bulls with strong ones;
So their land will be soaked with blood,
And their dust become greasy with fat.
8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of retribution for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be extinguished night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.
12 Its nobles—there is no one there
Whom they may proclaim king—
And all its officials will be nothing.

Those verses say that Edom will be filled with blood. There rivers turned to pitch. A endless fire with endless smoke forever and ever. No new generation will live there.

well Edom is not on fire. It’s rivers are not pitches of blood. It’s not still smoking either. Just like Sodom is not still smoking. The Jewish writers used a lot of metaphors. “ land flowing with milk and honey “ and so on.

so when you see endless fire, smoke that never ends, it’s highly poetic and symbolic.

which brings us to revelation. Revelation is probably the most symbolic book in the Bible. It’s full of poetic imagery. Sea dragons, horse men of death, dragons with horns, Jesus riding a horse in the sky. It’s all imagery. It’s not literal. It means something. Just like when I say ,” I’m so hungry I could eat a horse “ does not actually mean I can consume a 1200lb animal. I would be full before even a fraction was touched.

so the other verse, from the highly symbolic book of revelation, says this.


Revelation 20:10
New American Standard Bible
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

In addition to knowing revelation is highly symbolic, we also should be able to use wisdom by now to understand the war poetry being used. Lakes of fire ( streams of pitch ) tormented day and night ( forever burning and smoking ).

But it says that Satan is tossed into the lake of fire. What else is tossed into the lake?


Revelation 20:14
New American Standard Bible
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

So it says both death and hades was tossed in the fire as well. But is death and hades actual beings? Death is not actually a pale rider on a horse. Death is not a creature. It’s a state of being. Hades is a place of death. They are both associated with death.

so hades and death is not being tormented say and night. But they were destroyed. So perhaps the lake of fire that brings the second death is war poetry for destruction. Coming to a end. This matches up with the Bible very well.


Matthew 10:28
New American Standard Bible
28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God destroys both the body and soul in hell. Does not save torment. Says destroys. Kills. Makes dead. Hell, the second death, is where those thing cast into it comes to a end and is destroyed.

That really make sense because what is the wages of sin? Death. The wages of sin is death?

Matthew 13:30
New American Standard Bible
30 Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and at the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

I mean here is a metaphor that is less confusing for modern people who don’t understand the symbolism for eternal fire, endless smoke and torture day and night. In Matthew Jesus says the weeds are gathered and burned. What happens to weeds in a

Yes hell is a place that can change. We don't always stay there. Jesus taught the spirits in prison. Etc.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What’s that got to do with God’s righteous judgment against the wicked?

Its due justice for the haters of God to suffer for eternity.

If you really think about this it is a moral problem placed upon God in the fact that He is not into fair justice. It's not fair justice to punish somebody beyond what the crime calls for. Meaning, to punish somebody for eternity for a finite amount of sins is not fair justice. It's immoral. Today, if you seen a child tortured the rest of their life until they were old for committing a few crimes like theft, and lying, we would think that their punishment was overkill or unfair.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

View attachment 31593

Right, your cartoon illustrates a good point in a person not believing God’s Word. We can say the same thing when you read words like ”eternal destruction” in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, and or when you read the words “second death” in Revelation 21:8.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Those who burn in Hell "forever and ever" will wish they "ceased to exist"!

See, rather than deal with the actual points I made, you just make a comment or opinion like you are right with no actual need of defense or evidence for your position.

 

[QuantumBit]

I have noticed that whenever a thread gets this long with folks going in circles, it is because neither side is correct.

Universalists are closer to the ultimate answer though. :)