LIMITED ATONEMENT: US vs THEM (the L of TULIP)

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Behold

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NOT "all without exception" ...

That's Calvin's doctrine.
You realize this yet?

Let me show you were Calvin's theological sewer spawned into "Calvinism".

1.) Calvin was unable to comprehend that "God's Foreknowledge" is not the same as "Pre-Destined".

Ive ever met a disciple of Calvin who could understand it.
Not one.

So, JC combined them as "the same" then created the Cross Denying Theology that "Limits" The Cross and the Grace of God... to only the "pre-destined" or "God Chosen", which denies the Cross and does not recognize Free Will.


2.) According as He has chosen us "in Christ".


So, Chosen how? "in Christ", and that is to be born again into Christ.

This happens when a person hears the Gospel, and believes it. God them births them into Christ.

So, the choosing is not based on being chosen to believe, but its based on becoming= "in Christ", by Grace through Faith, as born again.
And God's Foreknowledge knows exactly who will believe and who will never become "in Christ" by free will, based on "faith being counted as righteousness""..., and those who Do Believe (Free Will) ...= God knew they would (Foreknowledge) , and based on them being In Christ, (born again) they then continue in Eternal Life, and eventually reach "conformed into the image of Christ" after they die.
That "conforming" is pre-destined to happen to everyone who by faith becomes = "in Christ".
 

atpollard

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Ive posted about it many times.

Also, i explained it to you, but you then talked about Calvin.
I almost NEVER speak of Calvin for the simple reason that I am largely ignorant of his writings. I have never read them. I arrived at the 4 points of the Doctrines of Grace I presented in John 6:44 from reading scripture and trying to reconcile my personal salvation experience with the Wesleyan Holiness teaching at the Church of God that I was attending following my conversion from atheism. I only later learned that the Biblical Truths that I had arrived at had a name "Calvinism" and an acrostic "T.U.L.I.P." ... I had never given any thought to the subject of atonement beyond gratitude that Jesus had died for me. I still view the "L" of TULIP to be a bit like men stepping into an area that belongs to God and telling God how he should save people. On the other hand, what I know of God makes the CONSEQUENCES of the "logical" positions obvious, so I strongly embrace an EFFECTUAL justification by Jesus' blood for some over an INEFFECTUAL "option to be justified by Jesus' blood" for all without exception. My God does not TRY, my God DOES! So Jesus' blood does not "offer salvation to all", Jesus' blood SAVES ALL WHOM IT WAS SHED FOR ... the foreknown, predestined, called, justified, glorified [Romans 8:29-30].

Since you have posted it "many times", just identify the post # that I may go back and reread it.
 

atpollard

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That's Calvin's doctrine.
You realize this yet?
I quoted SCRIPTURE verbatim and you are rejecting the WORD OF GOD and claiming it as the teaching of Calvin.
It is YOU who should beware ... rejecting posted scripture as heretical teaching is never a good sign.
 

Behold

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I almost NEVER speak of Calvin for the simple reason that I am largely ignorant of his writings.

Calvinism is a cancer on the Body of Christ.

It infects people with "everything is pre-destined".
"there is no free will"
It infects Christian Theology with Calvinism, that teaches that "God causes Evil", and The Cross is "Limited " to the "elect", that is a Calvinism misunderstanding that : "foreknowledge of God" is Calvin's definition of "pre-destined".

Have you ever met anyone who isn't a Christian, who would say...>"its all meant to be".

That is Calvinism.....it even affects unbelievers.

Its a mental scourge.
 

Behold

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Since you have posted it "many times", just identify the post # that I may go back and reread it.

Here's one.
God does not choose anyone to be saved.

What God did was offer the Cross of Christ to the world as "The Gift of Salvation". John 3:16
All that believe, IN Jesus, = shall be saved.

Jesus said..>"ALL ALL that believe in me, i give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish."""

Jesus said..>"if i be lifted up (on the Cross) i will DRAW ALL ...to me"

ALL, means......."all"..... But not to John Calvin.

So, what was Calvin's heresy?..
Why was he so deceived and ended up creating a Theology, that rejects Grace, and denies the Cross?

Calvin, was probably not born again.... IMO
And he read the bible like it was a dictionary, and put verses together in his spiritual darkness, never discerning them, or "rightly dividing" them.
Also, Calvin wanted to be famous. He wanted to be known in the history books as a "church father".
He ended up denying the Cross and creating a theology that has twisted much of Christianity into his cult.

Calvinist's believe that Calvinism is Christianity, as if this wicked deceiver wrote the NT.

So, How did he become so confused about the Cross, Grace, and God's Salvation?
It was one thing, only.
This....
Calvin could not comprehend that God knowing everything that is going to happen, (Foreknowledge) is NOT the same thing as God causing it all to happen. = "Pre-destined".
So, Calvin invented a "doctrine of devils'... Hebrews 13:9...... that subverts God's Omnipotent "Foreknowledge" into "pre-destined" cultism, as if they are the same.
They are absolutely not .

See that?
Calvin could never understand this, so he created a Cross denying Grace insulting Theology that has God choosing some to go to hell before they are even born.
 
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atpollard

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Calvin could not comprehend that God knowing everything that is going to happen, (Foreknowledge) is NOT the same thing as God causing it all to happen. = "Pre-destined".
Romans 8:28-30 contradicts YOUR understanding of predestination.
Romans 9 contradicts YOUR understanding of predestination.
Ephesians 1:4-6 contradicts YOUR understanding of predestination.
Ephesians 2:1-5 contradicts YOUR understanding of predestination.

Your argument has been held up to the Berean yardstick and found wanting.
 

Ronald Nolette

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His free will is very active, He chooses to ignore the natural knowledge of creation. But man also chosses to find God. Able, Noah, Enoch, Abraham, and many others. God found favor with these persons. He did not coerce them. Since God desires all men to believe, if he wanted them he could have forced many more to believe. Do you call that love. It is actually impossible for God to do to man what your view holds.
You are right that man tends toword the negative and when he is in the flesh he cannot please God. Believers have a very difficult time remaining In the Spirit, and live in the flesh. Every sin one commits is in the flesh.
I give you scripture- you respond with human reasoning. I will stick with what teh Scripture tells me about unsaved mans ability to choose God.
You realize you contradict yourself with the above statement. If man has his free will restored to him after he is saved, then what made him choose God in the first place. You are neither consistent nor logical with your view.
God chose us first! That is what election, predestination and foreknowledge all tell us. A saved person only can get saved because He is empowered by god to receive in faith. It may contradict human logic, but god is great at doing that as Paul said many times in Corinthians.
Those are your words. Orthodox never taught one can lose one's salvation. What they teach is that a believer can lose their faith, and if no repentance, they will lose their inheritance, salvation, And how in your view did Eastern Churches leave the original gospel, and who determined that they left?
Coming from one who holds to limited atonement, a denial of what Christ accomplished.
I suspect you do not even know what is taught concerning limited atonement. You make that plain by your faulty accusation.
What accusations?
Against calvin, and many of the reformers. You accuse but do not support your allegations with the Word of God.
These and maybe at least 20 others I can give to you who are either false teachers, or their writings were. The Church does not hold to any of these views which is why they are called false. The Church Councils condemned all of them as unscriptural and the Church itself accepted all of these decisions except two, I believe. One was Council of Trent. Let me ask you how you might discern false teachings?
Well Trent was a RC council and untrustworthy.

I discern false teaching by comparing what is presented with the whole counsel of Scripture on the subject! As all believers are supposed to.
You do have a very dim view of the power of the Holy Spirit.
No, I have a very powerful view of the Spirit. As He inspired the Scriptures I trustr the Words He inspired which tell us that no one can be saved apart from the gospel and it is the church who is tasked with going to all nations with the Gospel.

Can you cite one example from history where a church was born in a gentile land where no believer went with the word preaching the truth?

I would like to remind you of some very important words Jesus Himself said about who gets saved.

John 10:26-28

King James Version

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Jesus goes after His lost sheep to bring them back to the fold.

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We His sheep were chosen before God even created the world!!!!

that is the biblical fact.
 
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Behold

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Romans 8:28-30 contradicts YOUR understanding of predestination.
Romans 9 contradicts YOUR understanding of predestination.
Ephesians 1:4-6 contradicts YOUR understanding of predestination.
Ephesians 2:1-5 contradicts YOUR understanding of predestination.

Your argument has been held up to the Berean yardstick and found wanting.

Your verses and your opinion are definitely "Berean".

Im not a denomination, or a cult.
I would never disparage the Lord of my Salvation, by defining myself on a forum as a denomination, when there are no denominations in Heaven.
You just did.

Take this to the bank, fella....... Denominations make people like you believe what you believe.
God, does not.
Denominations are man made., and they made your theology.

See, your understanding of the NT is based on "Berean" Mind Training, and this "group'" is : "Of Calvin".
They have your mind, and you just proved it.... Mr Berean.
You can come and deny it now, but you are a little too late for that one.
 

Rightglory

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I give you scripture- you respond with human reasoning. I will stick with what teh Scripture tells me about unsaved mans ability to choose God.
You have not posted any that actually say the unsaved cannot choose God. You also contradict yourself with a statement lower in this post that believers are chosen from the foundations of the earth. You believe in a God who created man in His Image then does not love them, in fact you have God condemning them to hell before they are born. How is any of that scriptural. He took on our humna nature for the sole purpose of saving mankind/world from death and sin. Rom 1:18-24 is very clear that every single human being will be without excuse at judgement. Every human being makes a choice of either death or life. Nowhere in scripture does it ever say the opposite.
God chose us first! That is what election, predestination and foreknowledge all tell us. A saved person only can get saved because He is empowered by god to receive in faith. It may contradict human logic, but god is great at doing that as Paul said many times in Corinthians.
He did not choose any person to be believers. No text show election of believers. I pointed out earlier that every time election is used it is for a specific service, never for salvation. Once a person becomes a believer and they are IN Christ, then God tells us He predestined them to be conformed to His Image, that they will be adopted as sons, There is nothing in either Corinthians that certain men are empowered to believe. All men have a measure of faith. All of scripture indicates that God/the Holy Spirit is calling all men to repentance. God calls and man responds. God will not, cannot force man to love Him. First, that would not be love. He loves all men, in fact, we are commanded to love all men. Why would he command us to do something He will not do.
I suspect you do not even know what is taught concerning limited atonement. You make that plain by your faulty accusation.
There are enough Calvinist on this thread, let alone on this forum that one can garner a clear picture of what it means.Actu8ally it is immaterial what it means because Christ's atonement was universal.
Against calvin, and many of the reformers. You accuse but do not support your allegations with the Word of God.
I already gave you the texts and the explanations as well as historical facts.
Well Trent was a RC council and untrustworthy.

I discern false teaching by comparing what is presented with the whole counsel of Scripture on the subject! As all believers are supposed to.
And just look at what happen to the RC when the Pope took over the authority duly held by the Church and the Holy Spirit. They began to accept teachings of other men and made them doctrines, or the Pope himself declared new doctrines, and forced the College of Cardinals to accept the new teaching of the immaculate conception of Mary.
Then comes the reformers who made themselves the new popes and developed theories never heard before and it continues to this day. Hundreds of them. If one disagrees with another, just from another group.
All in violation of scripture itself, where interpretation was never given privately to individuals, nor is the Holy Spirit the giver of all of these false teachings. The Gospel was once given, completely, it was given to the early Chruch and the Holy Spirit works through His Body as He stated in II Tim 3:15. It is the Body that determines false teachings not individual man nor even a group of men.
No, I have a very powerful view of the Spirit. As He inspired the Scriptures I trustr the Words He inspired which tell us that no one can be saved apart from the gospel and it is the church who is tasked with going to all nations with the Gospel.
That is this dispensation. And all nations have been exposed to the Gospel. God did not stop what the Holy Spirit was doing in the other dispensations.
Can you cite one example from history where a church was born in a gentile land where no believer went with the word preaching the truth?
Cannot think of one. But then that was the purpose of this dispensation.
I would like to remind you of some very important words Jesus Himself said about who gets saved.

John 10:26-28​

King James Version​

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Jesus goes after His lost sheep to bring them back to the fold.
I don't see here any thing that says how any person is saved. It is a continuation of a discourse between Jesus and the Pharisees. They are arguing whether He is the Messiah or an interloper. Pharisees did not listen to him before as they don't now. Jesus compares them to those that believed, they hear and listen to Him. The fact Jesus goes after the lost sheep, the fact one can leave says a lot about perseverance of the saints.
Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We His sheep were chosen before God even created the world!!!!

that is the biblical fact.
It is not a biblical fact because it does not say what you just stated. He chose us IN HIM, not to be in HIM. One must believe first, become a member of His Kingdon - being IN Christ that the Holy Spirit works with man to be conformed to His Image, to be Holy. This is the election of the Church I mentioned before.
 
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atpollard

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Your verses and your opinion are definitely "Berean".

Im not a denomination, or a cult.
I would never disparage the Lord of my Salvation, by defining myself on a forum as a denomination, when there are no denominations in Heaven.
You just did.

Take this to the bank, fella....... Denominations make people like you believe what you believe.
God, does not.
Denominations are man made., and they made your theology.

See, your understanding of the NT is based on "Berean" Mind Training, and this "group'" is : "Of Calvin".
They have your mind, and you just proved it.... Mr Berean.
You can come and deny it now, but you are a little too late for that one.
sigh ... being like the Bereans is a good thing:

Acts of the Apostles 17:10-12
[NIV]
10 As soon as it was night, the believers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12 As a result, many of them believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.
[NLT]
10 That very night the believers sent Paul and Silas to Berea. When they arrived there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. 11 And the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul's message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to see if Paul and Silas were teaching the truth. 12 As a result, many Jews believed, as did many of the prominent Greek women and men.

You really should read more of the Bible. There is a lot of really good stuff in there just waiting for you to discover it and make your own.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Jesus didn't follow your pastor's advice. Our knowledge of judgement and being cast into eternal fire and gnashing of teeth comes from the lips of Jesus.

Isn't that curious.

[That said, TULIP isn't a tool for evangelism any more than the doctrine of the Trinity is a tool for Evangelism. If you want to see "Calvinist Evangelism" read a sermon by Charles Spurgeon - which is readily available - who was both a "Particular Baptist" (aka. Reformed/Calvinist) and gifted as an Evangelist.]

Here is Spurgeon's sermon on John 3:16
Here is Spurgeon's sermon on John 6:44

Compare the two and see if they both have the heart that embraces TULIP and for EVANGELISM.
(The point being that the Doctrines of Grace are not incompatible with Evangelism).
Jesus came the first time as a suffering servant, meek, loving, healing and forgiving. He was condemning to the Pharisees but all in all, didn't come to condemn
He sent His disciples and us out to evangelize in the same way, gracefully.
He will return in judgment. The wages of sin is death. This fact is not ignored and avoided, it is just not the thrust and power by which God draws us to Himself.
Sometimes I just think Calavinists are a bit cold in rheor approach. The Ephesians were tpo. It wasn't thwie doctrine, ot was just they forget their first love.
Calvinesque flare and touxh if arrogance: "Come to Me all you totally depraved dirty rags, who do not want to burn, for I will save you from the fire ... and btw, I don't really have to ask - for My will and grace is irresistible ... I mean you are either on my list or not ... just hang tight, know that I'm there for ya ... but you'll have to persevere to the end". TULIP just rubs me wrong that way.
Jesus did teach of Hell but that is not how the Father draws us.

Spurgeon was a great teacher, I think he was a bit more graceful than Calvin. I didn't see TULIP in those teachings. Election is certainly there.
 

atpollard

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He sent His disciples and us out to evangelize in the same way, gracefully.
I would like to offer a Scriptural challenge to this "children's Sunday school" caricature of Jesus and His Disciples:

Matthew 10:
11 “Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. 12 And when you go into a household, greet it. 13 If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!

Mark 6:
10 Also He said to them, “In whatever place you enter a house, stay there till you depart from that place. 11 And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!”​
12 So they went out and preached that people should repent. 13 And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many who were sick, and healed them.

Luke 9:
4 “Whatever house you enter, stay there, and from there depart. 5 And whoever will not receive you, when you go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet as a testimony against them.”​
Different horses for different courses (or all things to all people, as Paul put it) seems to be more Jesus' style than the "universal gentleness" of His caricature.
 

atpollard

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Spurgeon was a great teacher, I think he was a bit more graceful than Calvin.
Most of that was probably their personalities ... Spurgeon was called to be an Evangelist/Pastor while Calvin was a Theologian/Scholar. Spurgeon was probably more graceful that R.C. Sproul for the same reason.

Part of it was probably the 1800's vs the 1600's. Luther was a Pastor and his writing is a lot closer to Calvin than to Spurgeon, just as Sproul is a lot closer to Spurgeon than either Calvin or Luther. Fiery rhetoric was just how they rolled in Calvin & Luther's day.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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I would like to offer a Scriptural challenge to this "children's Sunday school" caricature of Jesus and His Disciples:

Matthew 10:
11 “Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. 12 And when you go into a household, greet it. 13 If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!

Mark 6:
10 Also He said to them, “In whatever place you enter a house, stay there till you depart from that place. 11 And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!”​
12 So they went out and preached that people should repent. 13 And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many who were sick, and healed them.

Luke 9:
4 “Whatever house you enter, stay there, and from there depart. 5 And whoever will not receive you, when you go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet as a testimony against them.”​
Different horses for different courses (or all things to all people, as Paul put it) seems to be more Jesus' style than the "universal gentleness" of His caricature.
Well I wear shoes, my feet stay pretty clean. I am in complete agreement to move on when someone is not interested - gracefully. You aren't mean or insulting just shaking it off,
and forgeting about them ... next!
I always thought there was something else about that dirt. Is their dirt/ cursed or tainted to the point where you must remove it or you'll be taking some spiritual junk with ya? That makes me think of Moses when God asked him to take off his shoes because he was on holy ground ... the dirt? Being in His presence is holy but whether wearing shoes or not standing on dirt - I didn't get that. So that's the question, if the earth can be holy, can it also be evil?
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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Most of that was probably their personalities ... Spurgeon was called to be an Evangelist/Pastor while Calvin was a Theologian/Scholar. Spurgeon was probably more graceful that R.C. Sproul for the same reason.

Part of it was probably the 1800's vs the 1600's. Luther was a Pastor and his writing is a lot closer to Calvin than to Spurgeon, just as Sproul is a lot closer to Spurgeon than either Calvin or Luther. Fiery rhetoric was just how they rolled in Calvin & Luther's day.
RC Sproul is a very thorough teacher. Him and MacArthur are my go to guys.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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You have not posted any that actually say the unsaved cannot choose God. You also contradict yourself with a statement lower in this post that believers are chosen from the foundations of the earth. You believe in a God who created man in His Image then does not love them, in fact you have God condemning them to hell before they are born. How is any of that scriptural. He took on our humna nature for the sole purpose of saving mankind/world from death and sin. Rom 1:18-24 is very clear that every single human being will be without excuse at judgement. Every human being makes a choice of either death or life. Nowhere in scripture does it ever say the opposite.
I did, maybe you slept through when you read the post. but here are a few again

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

this declareth God!!!!!
All in violation of scripture itself, where interpretation was never given privately to individuals, nor is the Holy Spirit the giver of all of these false teachings. The Gospel was once given, completely, it was given to the early Chruch and the Holy Spirit works through His Body as He stated in II Tim 3:15. It is the Body that determines false teachings not individual man nor even a group of men.
Interpretation does not belong to some ecclesiastical body. It is for the individuals.

Now if you want to get into teh lengthy discussion of why there are so many "interpretations" we can start another thread and posit the many hypotheses as to why.

And the body is also not an ecclesiastical body but each and every individual.

Paul extolled teh Bereans for their individual study and Paul told Timothy and Titus to teach men who would teach others who would teach othersd etc.etc..

You are more interested in accepting some Ecclestiastical decision on what Scripture says no matter how badly they may reinterpret it!

all sects of Christendom have correct and incorrect doectrines in them, None are infallible.
There are enough Calvinist on this thread, let alone on this forum that one can garner a clear picture of what it means.Actu8ally it is immaterial what it means because Christ's atonement was universal.
Nice way of saying you are too lazy to see for yourself. I guess you do not like the Berean philosophy of verifying what people say.
That is this dispensation. And all nations have been exposed to the Gospel. God did not stop what the Holy Spirit was doing in the other dispensations.
If by that you mean land masses that are delineated by borders, I would tend to agree. But there are still billions of people world wide who have never heard the name Jesus. god doesn't save on the basis of a physical nation hearing the gospel, but individual faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus for ones sin debt before God!

Indonesia has heard the gospel, but that is a nation with a thousand islands and the super majority of the inhabited islands of that nation have never heard the gospel.
Cannot think of one. But then that was the purpose of this dispensation.
But yet according to what you have been posting here, this must have happened according to you! It is the purpose of the church which is the title of this dispensation (the church age or dispensation of the church) It is the job of teh church alone to bring the gospel to the nations. It won't happen by angels or the Spirit taking form and preaching to a tribe who never heard!
I don't see here any thing that says how any person is saved. It is a continuation of a discourse between Jesus and the Pharisees. They are arguing whether He is the Messiah or an interloper. Pharisees did not listen to him before as they don't now. Jesus compares them to those that believed, they hear and listen to Him. The fact Jesus goes after the lost sheep, the fact one can leave says a lot about perseverance of the saints.
Are you really that blind?????????????????? Only the sheep of Jesus hear His voice and follow Him, aka geet saved. Everyone else is not of Jesus sheep.

Jesus sends us to gather the lost sheep! Not turn goats to sheep! Jesus commands us to gather teh wheat to His barns, not turn tares into wheat! That fits in perfectly with the numerous verses about election, predestination, foreknowledge, being chosen etc.
 

Rightglory

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I did, maybe you slept through when you read the post. but here are a few again

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

this declareth God!!!!!

Interpretation does not belong to some ecclesiastical body. It is for the individuals.
Can you find that in scripture. We are to read it and apply it to our lives, I Tim 3:15 clearly says otherwise respective of interpretation. I thought you followed scripture?
Now if you want to get into teh lengthy discussion of why there are so many "interpretations" we can start another thread and posit the many hypotheses as to why.
It matters not how many there might be. It puts man as the primary authority over scripture which is diametrically opposite of scripture.
And the body is also not an ecclesiastical body but each and every individual.
And so we get into protestant interpretations. Scripture disagrees with you.
Paul extolled teh Bereans for their individual study and Paul told Timothy and Titus to teach men who would teach others who would teach othersd etc.etc..
You are not being a Berean. The Bereans went to the OT to check on what Paul was saying. They did not impose their own private views overriding Paul. As to Timothy and Titus it was the Oral teachings of the Church that was used exclusively for 30 years. It is this Oral Tradition that is part of the meaning of scripture. If you want to be a Berean you need to go back to the early Church to see what they believed and practiced.
You are more interested in accepting some Ecclestiastical decision on what Scripture says no matter how badly they may reinterpret it!
The Ecclestiastical was never the final say. It is the Body that is the final arbiter of their decisions. Their decisions always were made on the basis of what was always believed, everywhere by all. The fact that the Truth has not changed for 2000 years attest to the power of the Holy Spirit working through His Body as He promised.
all sects of Christendom have correct and incorrect doectrines in them, None are infallible.
That is what protestants need to say because they don't have any alternative. It is one against another.
Nice way of saying you are too lazy to see for yourself. I guess you do not like the Berean philosophy of verifying what people say.
I use the Berean rule every time i read a post on any forum. If it is not what has always been believed from the beginning it is false. Man has never been correct in 2000 years. One would need to assume the Holy Spirit went to sleep or no longer has any authority as man has usurped His authority.

If by that you mean land masses that are delineated by borders, I would tend to agree. But there are still billions of people world wide who have never heard the name Jesus. god doesn't save on the basis of a physical nation hearing the gospel, but individual faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus for ones sin debt before God!
If that is actually true, then Rom 1:18-24 is applicable. Scripture clearly states that no man will have an excuse at judgement that they did not know God. Every human being will make a decision, life or death.
Indonesia has heard the gospel, but that is a nation with a thousand islands and the super majority of the inhabited islands of that nation have never heard the gospel.

But yet according to what you have been posting here, this must have happened according to you! It is the purpose of the church which is the title of this dispensation (the church age or dispensation of the church) It is the job of teh church alone to bring the gospel to the nations. It won't happen by angels or the Spirit taking form and preaching to a tribe who never heard!

Are you really that blind?????????????????? Only the sheep of Jesus hear His voice and follow Him, aka geet saved. Everyone else is not of Jesus sheep.

Jesus sends us to gather the lost sheep! Not turn goats to sheep! Jesus commands us to gather teh wheat to His barns, not turn tares into wheat! That fits in perfectly with the numerous verses about election, predestination, foreknowledge, being chosen etc.
Except you overlook that the Holy Spirit is actively working and calling all men to repentance. We are to minister to all people. People do not become sheep until they believe. You do a very good job is isolating verses, redefining verses to establish a gospel that was never heard in the beginning, never taught by the Apostles and not supported in scripture based on their teachings.
 

brightfame52

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The Atoning Death of Christ is limited in its purpose and efficacious results. Its limited to them that by His death, those He died for are #1 Reconciled to God, and #2 they shall also be saved by His Life, Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now is the whole world #1 Reconciled to God ? #2 Shall the whole world be saved by His Life ? Of course not, some are going to hell and die in their sins, so those that die in their sins, Christs Death wasnt for them. If we rebel and say it was, we are gulty of denying Christ, that is denying the Saving efficacy of His Death and Life, which is unbelief !
 

Ronald Nolette

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Can you find that in scripture. We are to read it and apply it to our lives, I Tim 3:15 clearly says otherwise respective of interpretation. I thought you followed scripture?
This is nonsensical. I gave you scripture and you do not know it is SCripture.

Once again you amke accusation without evidence.

So until you back up you r claim I am falsely interpreting Scripture, here I wait.