How are we to reckon ourselves as being dead to sin?

[Johann]

Concerning the thorny soil, it sounds like you are making the argument that they remain unsaved, unregenerate. But that seems to conflict with what you said before, so I'm not sure what you are saying here.

In them, the word is unfruitful, simply stated.

Unfruitful

ἄκαρπος, (καρπός) (from Aeschylus down), without fruit, barren;
1. properly: δένδρα, Jud_1:12.

2. metaphorically, not yielding what it ought to yield, (A. V. unfruitful): Mat_13:22; Mar_4:19; destitute of good deeds, Tit_3:14; 2Pe_1:8; contributing nothing to the instruction, improvement, comfort, of others, 1Co_14:14; by litotes pernicious, Eph_5:11 (Wis_15:4; cf. Grimm on Wis_1:11).
Thayer Unabridged

1Co 14:14 for if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit doth pray, and my understanding is unfruitful.
ἄκαρπός akarpos|G175|Adj-NMS|unfruitful

Eph 5:11 and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of the darkness and rather even convict,
akarpois|G175|Adj-DNP|unfruitful

Tit 3:14 and let them learn—ours also—to be leading in good works to the necessary uses, that they may not be unfruitful.
akarpoi|G175|Adj-NMP|unfruitful.

2Pe 1:8 for these things being to you and abounding, do make you neither inert nor unfruitful in regard to the acknowledging of our Lord Jesus Christ,
akarpous|G175|Adj-AMP|unfruitful

Mat 13:22 'And that sown toward the thorns, this is he who is hearing the word, and the anxiety of this age, and the deceitfulness of the riches, do choke the word, and it becometh-Verb - Present Indicative Middle - 1st Person unfruitful.
akarpos|G175|Adj-NMS|unfruitful γίνεται. ginetai|G1096|V-PIM/P-3S|it becomes.

Is something that becomes unfruitful after hearing the word, fit for life eternal?

And he becometh unfruitful: as in such circumstances he must needs be; or if there be any show of fruit in outward respect to the word, in an historical faith of it, in an external profession, and outward reformation, "yet brings not fruit to perfection", as Luke says; these in process of time shrivel up, wither away, and come to nothing.
Gill

 

[Johann]

How do you reconcile this scripture. isn’t worshiped with man’s hands

My wife shared this with me earlier

Acts 17:24-25 KJV
[24] God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; [25] Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Amigo keeps telling me too raise my hands?

neither is worshipped with (served by) men’s hands] The verb implies the sort of service yielded by a steward to his master, or a minister to his King, a service in which the superior is not independent of his inferior, and could not well do without him. This is seen in the next clause. God is not like earthly masters and kings. He gives all, and men can only offer to Him themselves in return. Cp. Psalms 50, 51 for like teaching.



Perhaps, this will answer your question-

God that made the world — Thus is demonstrated, even to reason, the one, true, good God; absolutely different from the creatures, from every part of the visible creation. Seeing he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands — God hath no need of temples to dwell in, seeing he hath made the world, and is the Lord, or possessor, of the universe.


Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing — Or, person, the word τινος equally taking in both: that is, Neither is the true God worshipped with sacrifices and meats prepared by men’s hands, if these things are offered to him, as though he needed to be fed with the fruits of the earth, and with the flesh of beasts, and refreshed with the steams of sacrifices and incense: seeing he giveth to all — That live and breathe, whether men or beasts; life — For in him we live; and breath — In him we move; and all things — For in him we are: whence it is evident that men can contribute nothing to his life or happiness.

Nothing wrong in lifting your hands in utter adoration to God.

1Ki 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
Isa 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
Isa 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

Back to Acts

17:25 "as though He needed anything" This same thought is found in

Euripides' Heracles 1345f
Plato's Euthyphro 14c
Aristobulus, Fragment 4
Psalm 50:9-12
The Greek temples were often seen as the place where the gods were fed and cared for.

 

[amigo de christo]

his point was the lambs did not hate on Jesus, Just the ones who he exposed as evil

This is why people look to you and epi as false accusers.. you either have an issue reading. Your selectively read. or you do it on purpose.. but you continually show a total inabilitly to read what people say.

exactly my friend .

 

[amigo de christo]

@Episkopos its really very Odd too me

In the first century Christ following Jews were born out of religion.
Today Christ following folk are born into religion.

The true lambs are not the ones born into religion . WE BUSYING POINTING TO CHRIST JESUS
its yalls social all inclusive many path lie to GOD who preaches another way another religoin to GOD .
It aint us pointing to our own merits to attain anything . WE is pointing to CHRIST , as in BELIEVE YE IN HIM .
You all refuse that approach . Epi called it religious dogma . No , its you all stuck in a religion created of man
which will not save one soul . JESUS saves , now preach to all BELIEVE YE in HIM and then remind them to do good works .

 

[amigo de christo]

Yes biblical words in the Greek are much more nuanced than their English counterparts. Hate means to love less in the context or to favor one over another . That’s the meaning of miseo in the Greek.

Correct . When JESUS said he who hates not his mother , father etc
That dont mean TO HATE as in the sense of actual hating at all . CAUSE didnt the same CHRIST say to LOVE even your enemies .
exactly . Hate simply means , loving less . CAN NOTHING be put BEFORE JESUS CHRIST , not son , no wife , nothing .
This is what it means . Yes indeed my friend . Yes indeed . Now raise those hands and let the LORD be praised .

 

[amigo de christo]

neither is worshipped with (served by) men’s hands] The verb implies the sort of service yielded by a steward to his master, or a minister to his King, a service in which the superior is not independent of his inferior, and could not well do without him. This is seen in the next clause. God is not like earthly masters and kings. He gives all, and men can only offer to Him themselves in return. Cp. Psalms 50, 51 for like teaching.



Perhaps, this will answer your question-

God that made the world — Thus is demonstrated, even to reason, the one, true, good God; absolutely different from the creatures, from every part of the visible creation. Seeing he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands — God hath no need of temples to dwell in, seeing he hath made the world, and is the Lord, or possessor, of the universe.


Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing — Or, person, the word τινος equally taking in both: that is, Neither is the true God worshipped with sacrifices and meats prepared by men’s hands, if these things are offered to him, as though he needed to be fed with the fruits of the earth, and with the flesh of beasts, and refreshed with the steams of sacrifices and incense: seeing he giveth to all — That live and breathe, whether men or beasts; life — For in him we live; and breath — In him we move; and all things — For in him we are: whence it is evident that men can contribute nothing to his life or happiness.

Nothing wrong in lifting your hands in utter adoration to God.

Its all out war for the souls of men . SO this man gonna point to the ONLY ONE WHO CAN save . CHRIST JESUS .
Now let all that has breath praise n thank the glorious Lord .

 

[amigo de christo]

his point was the lambs did not hate on Jesus, Just the ones who he exposed as evil

This is why people look to you and epi as false accusers.. you either have an issue reading. Your selectively read. or you do it on purpose.. but you continually show a total inabilitly to read what people say.

I dont know whether or not hidden in him does it on purpose . BUT EPI DOES . i have caught that man more than once
PURPOSEFULLY taking one tiny part out and making it seem like i meant something totally different .
And it aint just me Ol epi has done that too .

 

[Enoch111]

If you could read the bible from a non-religiously indoctrinated perspective

So everyone else is "indoctrinated" but Episkopos has created his own theology out of thin air. BTW I am not a "religionist" but a Christian who is very well versed in the Bible.

And the Bible has ONLY TWO ETERNAL destinies. And these are the words of the Lord Jesus Christ in Mark 16:16:

DESTINY #1
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...

DESTINY #2
...but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

[ChristisGod]

So everyone else is "indoctrinated" but Episkopos has created his own theology out of thin air. BTW I am not a "religionist" but a Christian who is very well versed in the Bible.

And the Bible has ONLY TWO ETERNAL destinies. And these are the words of the Lord Jesus Christ in Mark 16:16:

DESTINY #1
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...

DESTINY #2
...but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Ditto Jesus said the same thing below in

John 3- Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

 

[amigo de christo]

So everyone else is "indoctrinated" but Episkopos has created his own theology out of thin air. BTW I am not a "religionist" but a Christian who is very well versed in the Bible.

And the Bible has ONLY TWO ETERNAL destinies. And these are the words of the Lord Jesus Christ in Mark 16:16:

DESTINY #1
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...

DESTINY #2
...but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Christains who know their bibles are some of the most hated creatures to those who love to teach a lie .
STAY DUG IN THAT BIBLE . The lambs are gonna contend for the one true faith no matter the cost to us
AND GOD is with us and SHALL be with us through it all . CHRIST JESUS is our hope
and not this other religious dope some be preaching . That go spell they teach cant save them or anyone else who follows it .
BUT I KNOW WHO CAN SAVE . SO HE ALONE IS WHO I POINT TOO . You know HIS NAME . ITS JESUS CHRIST .

 

[amigo de christo]

Ditto Jesus said the same thing below in

John 3- Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Thats right my friend . WE GONNA POINT TO CHRIST ALONE . My prayer is
that all lambs will rise up and contend for the true faith in every street , every city , every state , every nation , all over the world .
We wont be buying their all inclusive lie . For the lambs BUY THE TRUTH ONLY and they SELL IT NOT .

 

[Johann]

I dont know whether or not hidden in him does it on purpose . BUT EPI DOES . i have caught that man more than once
PURPOSEFULLY taking one tiny part out and making it seem like i meant something totally different .
And it aint just me Ol epi has done that too .

yeah, so I have noticed--they take a "snippet" from your post and make you a liar, also, there is a lot of "editing" going on-I am surprised Epi didn't "edit/delete" his stance on 4 eternal destinies-

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I dont know whether or not hidden in him does it on purpose . BUT EPI DOES . i have caught that man more than once
PURPOSEFULLY taking one tiny part out and making it seem like i meant something totally different .
And it aint just me Ol epi has done that too .

You do it when all you are doing is looking to poke holes in what someone else says. Thats why it is so easy to misread them. I believe we have all done it from time to time. The difference I have noticed is when we do it and are confronted. We confess and admit it.. They won’t admit they did anything wrong. They will just deny it, or change the subject to get people to look away from it.

 

[Johann]

Ditto Jesus said the same thing below in

John 3- Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Same here--

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God: and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. - Revelation 20:12

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. - Daniel 12:2
John 5:28-29

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Mathew 25:31-46

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

And do take note--lately "eternal is NOT eternal by some-forgetting that aionos/olam--is Plural.

 

[Johann]

For me I can only put this into perspective one way?

Given what was going on in the first century in that region. One had to really love Jesus and all he spoke to walk away from all their kinsmen in order to follow him. The parable of the soils is all founded in what was really the state of the heart inside of them. Their entire culture evolved around Judaism.


It took a new kinda heart to walk away from this religion and follow Jesus outside of this culture. Their turning from it 180* meant losing all things. They family that remained in it position, wages, even the bare necessities, as James came too know there at the church in Jerusalem. They were literally starving due to being ostracized.

They never returned to the world they knew. They remained faithful to God in the face of dire adversity. This is a my wife said an all consuming fire that purged all their chaff.

The weeds and thorns were burned away, God removed the stony heart, and cultivated the ground in them where seed was cast and then fruit was received.

I enjoyed this short post from you-and you are correct-sometimes it is needful for us to study ancient rabbinical writings and the customs and cultures-and how they [the rabbis viewed afterlife etc.]

Mat_8:22 and Jesus said to him, 'Follow me, and suffer the dead to bury their own dead.'

Mat_16:24 Then said Jesus to his disciples, 'If any one doth will to come after me, let him disown himself, and take up his cross, and follow me,--

Mat_19:21 Jesus said to him, 'If thou dost will to be perfect, go away, sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven, and come, follow me.'

Mat_19:28 And Jesus said to them, 'Verily I say to you, that ye who did follow me, in the regeneration, when the Son of Man may sit upon a throne of his glory, shall sit—ye also—upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel;

Mar_8:34 And having called near the multitude, with his disciples, he said to them, 'Whoever doth will to come after me—let him disown himself, and take up his cross, and follow me;

Luk_9:23 And he said unto all, 'If any one doth will to come after me, let him disown himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me;

Joh_10:27 according as I said to you: My sheep my voice do hear, and I know them, and they follow me,

Joh_12:26 if any one may minister to me, let him follow me, and where I am, there also my ministrant shall be; and if any one may minister to me—honour him will the Father.

Joh_13:36 Simon Peter saith to him, 'Sir, whither dost thou go away?' Jesus answered him, 'Whither I go away, thou art not able now to follow me, but afterward thou shalt follow me.'

makes a lot of sense when you view this from ancient rabbinical writings

Well done.
J.

 

[ChristisGod]

If you could read the bible from a non-religiously indoctrinated perspective, you would see that there are

Only if you could read the bible from a born again believers perspective, you would see that we are right.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Episkopos]

So everyone else is "indoctrinated" but Episkopos has created his own theology out of thin air.

This is a false duality. Just because you have been indoctrinated in no way makes me unique. This is a reflection on your lack. I'm simply not involved with the indoctrinating scheme you have fallen for.

BTW I am not a "religionist" but a Christian who is very well versed in the Bible.

Let's see how "well versed" you really are.

And the Bible has ONLY TWO ETERNAL destinies. And these are the words of the Lord Jesus Christ in Mark 16:16:

DESTINY #1
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...

DESTINY #2
...but he that believeth not shall be damned.

I must add "simplistic" to your dogmatic understanding. This would be like trying to prove that there are no tall or short people based on God creating people ONLY male and female. There are other dualities...slave or free, Jew or Gentile. Unless we can see these in their right context...we will NOT be able to see how these all come together in Christ.

I see a tremendous lack of being able to think logically within the superficial confines of the modern religious system. How many here graduated from high school? But I suspect that many here have a least a high school diploma...what is lacking is the ability to think through what the bible is presenting due to an indoctrination into a dogmatic and false "heaven or hell" duality...that take away any ability to think straight.

The 4 destinies go deeper than a superficial glance that would make people draw wrong conclusions. Saved...but saved to what end? For those who are happy with an initial sample of grace and a salvation from the fire, there will be many surprises come judgment day.

Why are people so afraid to lose their religious certainty? Because they know that beliefs are not equivalent to faith. Ignorance is not equivalent to knowledge. But this lack of knowledge is also prophesied in the bible. It just remains whether a person wants to be a statistic...or risk waking out of a religious coma that makes a person oblivious to the truth.

 

[Episkopos]

Same here--

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God: and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. - Revelation 20:12

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. - Daniel 12:2
John 5:28-29

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Mathew 25:31-46

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

And do take note--lately "eternal is NOT eternal by some-forgetting that aionos/olam--is Plural.

This is a major mess..conflating different resurrections and obscuring the different destinies. You need to actually understand what you are jumbling together. I know I'm wasting my time trying to get you to understand anything...but to others I will show how a more careful reading reveals the 4 destinies.

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. - Daniel 12:2

At what educational level do people learn the difference between "many" and "all"????

Does the above verse say...And ALL who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake? And the two "somes" ...are they not just a division among the many...but not all.

So I ask...why not all? Why only many? What happened to the others that are not included?

The truth is that the verse is speaking of the FIRST resurrection...the judgment of the house of God. The rest will not be raised until 1,000 years later.

Rev. 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

I know, because it doesn't that it is the first resurrection mentioned in Daniel...then it can't be so??? Again, we are to worship God with all our MINDS as well as hearts. If people can't think...that's unfortunate. If people refuse to think...that's on them.

 

[Johann]

Only if you could read the bible from a born again believers perspective, you would see that we are right.

hope this helps !!!

To be honest, I [think] Epi is getting his weird ideas from Chabad.org-

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/5615890/jewish/Kabbalah-and-the-Enigma-of-Consciousness.htm#:~:text=Kabbalah%20and%20the%20Enigma,Chaim%20(Hyman)%20M.%20Schipper

If I'm wrong, I will apologize-I am still shell-shocked what waiting said-"I don't KNOW if I am born again-but I do believe I HAVE the Spirit-"

--and rabbi Epi with his 4 eternal destinies when even Modern Day Jews believe, like us, in TWO destinations and rabbi Epi don't know what the numerical value "four" is in Hebrew.

I have decided he might be correct on-"eternal consciousness"-but hasten to say that's ALL I agree with.

Luk 16:22 'And it came to pass, that the poor man died, and that he was carried away by the messengers to the bosom of Abraham—and the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 and in the hades having lifted up his eyes, being in torments, he doth see Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom,
Luk 16:24 and having cried, he said, Father Abraham, deal kindly with me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and may cool my tongue, because I am distressed in this flame.
Luk 16:25 'And Abraham said, Child, remember that thou did receive—thou—thy good things in thy life, and Lazarus in like manner the evil things, and now he is comforted, and thou art distressed;
Luk 16:26 and besides all these things, between us and you a great chasm is fixed, so that they who are willing to go over from hence unto you are not able, nor do they from thence to us pass through.
Luk 16:27 'And he said, I pray thee, then, father, that thou mayest send him to the house of my father,
Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers, so that he may thoroughly testify to them, that they also may not come to this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 'Abraham saith to him, They have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them;
Luk 16:30 and he said, No, father Abraham, but if any one from the dead may go unto them, they will reform.
Luk 16:31 And he said to him, If Moses and the prophets they do not hear, neither if one may rise out of the dead will they be persuaded.'
YLT

That is why I hold myself accountable to only four members here, marks and you, mailmandan and Lizbeth--you guys and gals is my gathering together with the saints-you are the reason why I wake up, give thanks , and come to fellowship-till the Spirit leads me to a true ekklesia-I believe this is my time for preparation.
J.

 

[[email protected]]

You do it when all you are doing is looking to poke holes in what someone else says. Thats why it is so easy to misread them. I believe we have all done it from time to time. The difference I have noticed is when we do it and are confronted. We confess and admit it.. They won’t admit they did anything wrong. They will just deny it, or change the subject to get people to look away from it.

"We do not want churches because they will teach us to quarrel about God. We do not want to learn that. We may quarrel with men sometimes about things of this earth, but we never quarrel about the Great Spirit. We do not want to learn that." (Chief Joseph leader
of the NEZ PERCE people)

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." (Proverbs 27:27)

Aggravation and frustration are often the result of religious argument. Pagans like Chief Joseph refused to consider a point of view about spiritual matters other than his own. He became an old man and learned nothing at all about it. He died in ignorance and spiritual poverty.

The Bible points the way to another way entirely. Those who know God's Word and have differing experiences with Our Lord tend to want to share, tend to want to know more and want to examine all the facets of it. It's a form of spiritual hunger that's never sated and for those who know Christ it's a river that never suffers drought.

On the other hand, we have self-important types much like Chief Joseph who have one point of view and one only. Their only desire is to stuff their opinions down the throat of others without so much as an atom of respect for that which is known by someone else.

It's been my observation that since the corruption of the church has spread so widely and since so many want to tickle their ears with whatever justifies their SIN they will not listen to sound argument backed by contextual references.

the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear (2 Tim 4:3)

We are living in the days of the Great Apostasy predicted by the Bible. Why are we surprised at this change of events? We are surprised because God's Holy LAW is disdained and attacked at every side. This particular form of lawlessness was predicted also.

The Day of the Lord is fast approaching. It is time to REPENT of our SINs and make peace with God - all of us.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...