To preach, declare, speak the Gospel is to offer, present, bring forth the message about Christ. Through the message (Gospel) God will eternally save whosoever believes according to grace through faith, and that the gift (salvation) of God that no man may boast.
LIMITED ATONEMENT: US vs THEM (the L of TULIP)
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To preach, declare, speak the Gospel is to offer, present, bring forth the message about Christ. Through the message (Gospel) God will eternally save whosoever believes according to grace through faith, and that the gift (salvation) of God that no man may boast.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
I guess you need to read church history and how as the church moved towards the dark ages, they gave up many sound doctrines. And the religious leaders of God in Jesus day condemned Jesus. So? by 1672 the catholic church has so left so many truths as to be void of the spirit.
I suspect a list of 100 would not suffice to you. You would just say they are taken out of context or misunderstood and offer nor proof for your allegations.
So hell is false to you and the need to repent also. After all if jesus is goojjgnt odraw all men to HImself then universalism is true and we neeed do nothing!
But that goes against what Jesus said:
Matthew 7:12-14
King James Version
12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
So your understanding of John 6 is very flawed.
Ah the old "Jesus won't cast us out, but we can fallaway by ourselves" lie!
- John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluckthem out of my hand.
I - John 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
So those who can luck themselves out of God the Fathers' hand and Jesus' hand are not human, for no human (including self) can pluck the saved out of Jesus hand.
Nice of you to remove the conditionals of the all. That is not incarnational but soteriological! Coming to Jesus is soteriological every day!
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Well to you they never will but to an honest student of the Word, they are clear as a bell.
People do not go to the Lake of fire for eternity because they are sinners, but because they reject Jesus as Savior and trusted in His death and resurrection alone to save them.
Nothing in nature teaches a person about the death and resurrection of Jesus for sin. There is no plan B. You do not trust in His Lordship and death- you are lost!
The problem is that I agree with you respective of the RC. I'm not RC which is why many of their doctrines have been condemned by the Orthodox Church, such as predestination, Original Sin.
The issue is that the first three reformers embodied a lot of RC theology. Calvin departed from scripture on his whole theory of predestination and TULIP.
If you're such a student of history you should know that the early Chruch never held such views as election of believers, predestination, irresistible grace, or perseverance of the saints, as well as Total Depravity or Limited Atonement.
So you make straw men arguments hoping that it might mean something.
God draws all men so that no man can give an excuse that He never knew God. God will judge all men, believers and unbelievers on their own choice of choosing life or death.
Quite contrary. He does draw all men soteriologically also, but the verse I cited is Incarnational which I cited a second one to explain it.
Lets stay with the soteriological it makes no difference. Every single human being is actually called by the Holy Spirit. He desires all come to repentance. I believe it was you that I cited many texts in scripture that clearly shows a believer losing faith, thus salvation. The most obvious are the two middle examples in the Parable of the sower, Another explicit one is Luke 12:42-46. It cannot be more clear.
Perseverance of the saints is quaint moden day theory and has a lot of appeal because it does not make man responsible for his actions/deeds. Yet we will be judged by our deeds Rom 2: 4-11, Rev 20:11-14.
Only if you supercede it with a modern man made theory. I can give you a long list of false teachers within the last 2000 years. They all based their theories on scripture.
What would be the difference. Except it does fit in with your theory. Belief saves, and then it does not matter what you do after that, one just looses fellowship, but is still saved.
Nothing in the OT does either. By your statement you seem to think that ONLY those that believe in Christ can be saved. How short sighted. Starting with Adam, Able, Noah, Enoch, Abraham and a host of other OT saints. They knew nothing about Christ, His death and resurrection, yet they are saved.
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You have a lot of words that don't really make sense to me regarding propitiation of sin. It matters not what sin, how many sins, whose sins, kind of sins. Christ atoned for those sins. In other words He offered a sacrifice for sin, The covering of that sin is appropriated by faith. I see no difference here between Paul and John.
The only idea that Christ blood redeemed the physical world by a sacrifice is not logical. The physical world in not a sin. Christ redeemed this world from the curse of death by His Incarnation/death and resurrection. His resurrection recapitulated the world which is why all men will be raised to life. Why we can speak of a new heaven and new earth.
Without overcoming death, the sacrifice for sin would be void. This is made clear in I Cor 15:16-18.
It is about Christ who saves His People from their sins Matt 1:21
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Thats what preaching Jesus is all about Acts 8:35
Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
And Heb 10:10-14 tells us that Jesus Christ death saved them He died for, because it sanctified them and perfected them forever.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Behold
Well-Known Member
That's false, nothing about a offer here. That's a declaration of What God has done through Christ! To say that is a mere offer is deceiving.
All of creation was subjected to the curse of sin, which is death. Every living thing dies because of the sin mankind brought into creation. By His atoning, sacrificial blood and resurrection Christ defeated ALL sin, and death. If the physical world is not part of His propitiation, why would there be need for a new earth? It is only by making all things in heaven and earth new (Rev 21:5) that the curse of death that now plagues all of creation will be abolished forever. That is why Christ is the propitiation not for our sins only, but for the whole world, or the whole creation.
Concerning ALL of mankind, Christ's atoning blood covers ALL sin ONLY for those who believe. The FACT that not all have faith, for many will continue to die in unbelief, is proof of limited atonement. Not limited by Christ, but limited by those who willfully refuse to turn to Him for life because they love the darkness. Christ is the Light that gives light to all, but those who would rather remain of the world do not know Him because they remain of the flesh, without the Holy Spirit, being born again of God. Only those who are born of God will believe. The rest will die in their sins, and be cast into the lake of fire that is the second death when Christ comes again.
John 1:1-13 (KJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
YES! Christ came to save HIS PEOPLE from their sins! Who are HIS PEOPLE? Whosoever is of faith in Him. Since faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word (Gospel) preachers are sent out with the message of the Gospel of Christ, offering the gift of life through Christ to whosoever according to grace through faith believes the message. Those "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (Jo 1:13)
Romans 10:13-17 (KJV) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Behold
Well-Known Member
You should purchase a bible., as your commentaries are not related to a bible.
John 3:16, says that God offered Christ to the World.
The message about Christ, the Gospel is offered/declared to every man, and as you say, faith is GIVEN according to grace to whosoever believes. Atonement of man is limited because not all have faith.
2 Thessalonians 3:2 (KJV) And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
Behold
Well-Known Member
The curse of death, physical death was due to one sin, the sin of Adam. Man became mortal. Man sins because he is mortal. Christ was Incarnated, took on that physicality of man, our human nature which is consubstantial with creation. Creation does not sin, The atonement of Christ has two parts. Overcoming death, and performed a sacrifice for sin. It covers sin period. The part you have correct is that man needs to appropriate it and he does this by faith, by repentance, confession and Christ because He was the sacrifice is also the High Priest that will forgive sins through that sacrifice.
We will all be rasied from the dead because Christ defeated death. All men, every human being will be raised incorruptible and immortal. I
Cor 15:53. That was earlier summed up in I Cor 15:20-22.
Because of that same consubstantial nature of man with the earth, the same is true of Christ bearing our human nature, recapitulated this universe so that there will be a new heaven and a new earth.
You need to make up your mind regarding universal or limited atonement. If limited, how is that possible. Let alone Christ bore the same human nature that all humans have had since creation. and respective of the sacrifice for sin, how do you split a drop of blood, and for whom is one drop given and what is left is given to whom?
Man's response to the atonement, namely believing that Christ is the Savior of the world and that by faith a believer can have his sins forgiven does not impact the Atonement whatsoever. It is not man's atonement. Man did not atone for sin.
Let me use a very crude allegory . Assume a lake has poison in it and if one drank they would die. Now an antidote is added and purifies the lake. Now, when one drinks they will not die. However some don't have faith that the water is pure and will not drink from it and die from thirst. Not drinking does not affect the water. There is no limit on how much water could be drunk from this lake. That only one drinks from it does not mean the water was limited in its effectiveness.
You have not properly understood 1Cor 15:22. In Adam all, without exception, all of humankind are destined to die. You have not carefully read the verse. Paul tells us IN CHRIST shall all be made alive. It is abundantly clear throughout Scripture that not all mankind without exception are IN CHRIST! All of humanity is in Adam, being physically born, but only those who are of faith are found to be IN CHRIST.
1 Corinthians 15:22 (KJV) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
All of humanity in an hour coming will be bodily resurrected from the graves. They are bodily resurrected to life, or damnation depending on whether or not in life they are of those who had done good, or of those who have done evil.
John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
That means that not all who are resurrected shall be immortal and incorruptible as you imagine. Paul says for the dead raised incorruptible and immortal death has been swallowed up in victory. So, none of those resurrected immortal and incorruptible will be resurrected to damnation, which is the lake of fire, the second death.
1 Corinthians 15:52-54 (KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Not exactly the same human nature, remember Christ was without sin. As I've repeatedly said, Christ is the propitiation (atonement) for the sin of the whole world. Through His atoning blood all sin is done away either according to grace through faith when man believes Christ for everlasting life OR sin will be done away for the one who dies in his/her sin in the lake of fire, that is the second death.
Atonement means reconciliation/restoration back to Divine favor. Without faith it is impossible to please God, or to be put back into His Divine favor. Atonement by Christ is complete for whosoever believes, but faith for man to believe in Christ most assuredly is not complete in all of them without exception.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Romanism is not into predestination, but are strong proponents of the Armenian free will concept.
Well as these are all biblical topics I can attest that the 1st Century and at least early 2nd century adhered to these. all of these are found in Scripture.
So please explain how for the untold billions over the centuries that never heard the name Jesus even once- How Jesus drew them to HImself? Itr is estimated that there still over 3.8 billion people who have never heard the gospel message once.
Well you can cite, but that doesn't make those verses incarnational. Please explain biblically how people who never have heard the Gosdpel which Paul said is the power of God to save can be drawn to salvation apart from hearing the gospel.
That is what your Armenian belief system is-- man made.
I can biblically show each point of tulip- but you cannot show each point of Armenian theology vis- a-vis the five points.
You have a Bible but it does you no good, the Gospel is not a offer, it's a proclamation.
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