Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.

[Johann]

Again, go back to post #306 and start checking out the videos and links I provided to you on these men you quoted.

And I have seen you edit your post, Charismatic movements, Brown, and Singer--and I quote none of them--I have personally watched hundreds of debates from various scholars, Scobac, Brown, Immams/Mulims--to teach me how to sharpen my skills in any given debate, and always rely on the Holy Spirit to lead and guide-not that I'm sinlessly perfect--but where do I use them as my secondary source?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think there is a misunderstanding here-I don't quote Brown, and certainly not Tovia Singer-and was deeply hurt by "Charismatic movements" when I was very young--anything else?
Thank you for the edit-clarifying.

You quoted their names as an authority on this topic we are discussing in this thread. Yet, the majority of the men you quoted are into rank heresy.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And I have seen you edit your post, Charismatic movements, Brown, and Singer--and I quote none of them--I have personally watched hundreds of debates from various scholars, Scobac, Brown, Immams/Mulims--to teach me how to sharpen my skills in any given debate, and always rely on the Holy Spirit to lead and guide-not that I'm sinlessly perfect--but where do I use them as my secondary source?

You quoted their names as a source of authority on this discussion.
That’s even worse. You gave them endorsement by mentioning their names to resolve this discussion.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And I have seen you edit your post, Charismatic movements, Brown, and Singer--and I quote none of them--I have personally watched hundreds of debates from various scholars, Scobac, Brown, Immams/Mulims--to teach me how to sharpen my skills in any given debate, and always rely on the Holy Spirit to lead and guide-not that I'm sinlessly perfect--but where do I use them as my secondary source?

My edit of my posts had nothing to do with covering my tracks in what you said. It was to fix grammar errors and to update what I wanted to say more clearly. You quoted their names as an authority on this topic. However, they should not be looked up to or even quoted as helpful source on any Christian topic because they teach heresy.

 

[Johann]

As I said. Once John 1:1 is overthrown, then there's no point in arguing over any other Scripture, that speaks of Christ and the Godhead. They will always have a sort of flowchart response for another interpretation of each and every Scripture, to justify saying that Jesus is not both Lord and God.

I call them foundation stone Scriptures of proof. A single Scripture cut out of the mountain, that crashes down on the false doctrine's tootsies, so that the whole pseudo-scholarship idol comes crashing down.

And I do understand how pride can get in the way of accepting it, and seeking how to honestly rebuild from scratch, upon that one stone of proof.

I've had it done with me, and I decided in the end, all that matters is the truth. Renewing our minds is by the Scriptures correcting our thoughts and imaginations. We conform to His image, not He to ours. Idolatry begins with idolizing our own minds over that of Christ.

Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

And we notice this verse immediately follows Scripture, that plainly says Jesus is the true God and eternal life.

Also--See the distinction sharply drawn in Joh_8:58 “before Abraham came (genesthai) I am” (eimi, timeless existence). God WITH/pros God--

was = was [already pre-existent]. Creation is not mentioned till Joh_1:3. "The Word had no beginning". See Joh_1:3; Joh_17:5. 1Jn_1:1. Eph_1:4. Pro_8:23. Psa_90:2. Compare Joh_8:58. Not the same "was "as in Joh_1:14.

the Word was God. This is correct. The Art. designates "the Word" as the subject. The order of the words has to do only with the emphasis, which is thus placed on the predicate, while "the Word "is the subject.

was God. Here "God "is without the Art., because it denotes the conception of God as Infinite, Eternal, Perfect, Almighty, &c. Contrast Joh_4:24.

It is also written--


1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Johann

If I disagree with a Christian I quote, I at least will provide a disclaimer saying I do not agree with everything they teach.
But I most certainly would not refer the name of crackpots in the Charismatic movement. I most certainly would not refer a person to non-Christians (unless it was a written quote to back up what other believers or Christians already teach). You just threw out some names as an endorsement on this topic and they believe in heresy. That’s why you need to stop listening to other people for a while and stop endorsing them by throwing their names around (like they are big shots), and just read the Bible and pray about it instead.

 

[Jay Ross]

So you didn't read it? It gives clear evidence of the mistranslation.

It certainly does demonstrate how it gets the context so wrong when that is the basis of the "acceptable" translations in your case.

 

[Johann]

You quoted their names as a source of authority on this discussion.
That’s even worse. You gave them endorsement by mentioning their names to resolve this discussion.

Are you serious?
Resolve WHAT discussion?

I believe that eternal life, eternal damnation is real and everlasting means everlasting, not "age enduring"--and aionos is PLURAL, twice for emphasis.

I believe in once saved, always saved--

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


4) "In whom also after that ye believed" (en ho kai pisteusantes) "in whom also (when) ye believed," or having fully believed. The Holy Spirit quickens every believer to life eternal and seals the stamp of divine ownership upon him to eternal life, Joh_6:63; Joh_10:27-29; 1Jn_5:13.

5) "Ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise" (esphragisthete to pneumati tes epangelias to hagio) "With the Holy Spirit of promise." This seal is heaven's stamp of eternal ownership of the sealed property, 2Ti_2:19; Eph_4:30. If salvation could ever be lost, it would have to be after the resurrection of the body of the believer; for until the redemption of the body (the purchased (paid for) possession of every believer), one is sealed. See also Rom_8:23.

• ye also: Eph_2:11-12; Col_1:21-23; 1Pe_2:10
• after that ye heard: Eph_4:21; Joh_1:17; Rom_6:17, Rom_10:14-17; Col_1:4-6, Col_1:23; 1Th_2:13
• the word: Psa_119:43; 2Co_6:7; 2Ti_2:15; Jas_1:18
• the gospel: Mar_16:15-16; Act_13:26; Rom_1:16; 2Ti_3:15; Tit_2:11; Heb_2:3
• ye were: Eph_4:30; Joh_6:27; Rom_4:11; 2Co_1:22; 2Ti_2:19; Rev_7:2
• holy: Joe_2:28; Luk_11:13, Luk_24:49; Joh_14:16-17, Joh_14:26, Joh_15:26, Joh_16:7-15; Act_1:4; Act_2:16-22, Act_2:33; Gal_3:14
• 
  
• Ye were sealed (esphragisthēte). First aorist passive indicative of sphragizō, old verb, to set a seal on one as a mark or stamp, sometimes the marks of ownership or of worship of deities like stigmata (Gal_6:17). Marked and authenticated as God’s heritage as in Eph_4:30. See note on 2Co_1:22 for the very use of the metaphor here applied to the Holy Spirit even with the word arrabōn (earnest).

Ye were sealed with that holy Spirit; ye were secured and ascertained of your right to the inheritance; which we may understand to be done either by the Spirit’s impressing upon the soul the image of God in the work of regeneration, or (because that cannot so well be understood to be after believing) rather by his testimony in men’s own consciences afterward; whether immediate, by an overpowering light shining into the soul, and filling it with assurance of its interest in Christ and heaven; or mediate, enabling a man to discern that image of God in his soul, by which the Spirit bears witness to his interest in the inheritance, and assures him of it: see Eph_4:30 Rom_8:16 Gal_4:6.
Of promise; because the Spirit’s coming was before promised, or because he verifies and confirms the promises in and to the hearts of believers.

Repent of your evil thought toward me--and you are correct, you WILL reap what you sow-you don't have discernment and deep calls to deep.

I remember you, you are easily offended-which is pride, the ego eimi still firmly on the throne Bible Highflyer/-er.

 

[Johann]

You just threw out some names as an endorsement on this topic and they believe in heresy. That’s why you need to stop listening to other people for a while and stop endorsing them by throwing their names around (like they are big shots), and just read the Bible and pray about it instead.

The only "big shot" here is you, no offense. Pride-don't work on my salvation friend, work out yours.

Now, get busy.

 

[robert derrick]

Do you believe in the doctrine of election, like the Reformers?

I don't know.

The doctrine of election is the same as justification, since there is not one without the other.

Both are confirmed and ensured by works added to our faith, which are virtuous living, study of the word, moderation in all things, patience in learning and in our walk with God, godliness, kindness and charity from a pure heart.

Virtue begins with believing and doing God's word.

--and how exactly do we know that we are part of the eklektous/Bechirim (Chosen Ones)?

First by faith in the Scriptures, that if we do what God says, He will do what He says.

By faith we confess our sins, and believe His word, that He immediately forgives us. By faith we confess the Lord Jesus, and we believe His word we are saved.

He chooses them, that He sees believe Him from the heart and do His word.

As you've said. Head knowledge is not heart knowledge, nor knowing God. Faith in words is not faith in God. The faith that saves and justifies us, is taking God exactly at His word, and doing it, and believing without doubt He will do what He says.

God chooses them that have faith as Jesus, which is called the faith of Jesus, that we must keep with His commandments.

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

For it stands written-many are called, few chosen-

All who here the gospel are now called, by the word being sown in the heart by hearing.

Not all hearers keep the word in their hearts, by doing it.

And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Having the word in our hearts, is what the Lord alone does by hearing His word. God chooses them that keep His word in their hearts by doing His will.

It's the same as the talent given to many, and one chooses to hide it in a napkin, and do nothing about it. That's being hearers only.

God does not save us alone, without us having any part, anymore than God can sow His word in our heart, without even hearing it.

Our part is to keep the word by doing it, and that is them that He chooses and justifies.

Many cars are in a lot, and all were given gas, and yet when the driver comes to choose a car to drive, He finds one with no gas. He goes to choose another car with gas to drive.

And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Are you serious?
Resolve WHAT discussion?

Did you hit your head and forget why you quoted these men’s names?
Was it not to convince me of ECT?

I believe that eternal life, eternal damnation is real and everlasting means everlasting, not "age enduring"--and aionos is PLURAL, twice for emphasis.

There are only about 5 major verses in Scripture that appear at first glance to teach Eternal Torment.
Out of these five, three of them can be read with the word conveying the concept of eternal with it not conflicting with Conditional Immortality.

1. Daniel 12:2 (People today can have everlasting contempt for Hitler but that does not mean he is alive today).
2. Matthew 25:46 (the idea of focus is on the “result of punishment” and not “ongoing punishing). So the punishment has eternal consequences. This is the “everlasting destruction” that Paul talks about in Thessalonians. Something that meets destruction is gone or ruined and it no more.
3. Mark 9:44 (Same: Mark 9:48) (Similar to Matthew 25:41) (worms and the fire could potentially be eternal and yet that does not mean the subject that they consumed is eternal).

Metaphorical use of forever.

1. Revelation 14:11
2. Revelation 20:10

To say that such a word like “forever” could not be used metaphorically is to ignore how the Bible describes such words.

Forever Does Not Always Mean Forever:

In fact, I believe why most hold to Eternal Torment is because they do not understand that the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible. Sure, sometimes the word “forever” can mean “forever,” but not always.

Well, I heard a pastor once say that the best way to interpret the Bible is to let the Bible do the interpreting for you.

In other words, the word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?

• In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.

• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Exodus 12:24; Exodus 27:21; Exodus 28:43).

• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).

• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).

• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Micah 1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ezekiel 16:53).

• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jeremiah 49:6).

• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3):

• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Habakkuk 3:6).

• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.

• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9).

• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.

Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).

• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6-10; Jonah 1:17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jeremiah 25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ezekiel 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jeremiah 49:39).

• "Moab is destroyed" (Jeremiah 48:4, Jeremiah 48:42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jeremiah 48:47).

• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).

• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.

• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 1:15 where it is contrasted with “for a while.”


So the word "forever" as used in the Bible is true. It does mean "forever" but it is talking in "forever" under the context of within either a temporary Covenant, or here upon this Earth (which is temporal), or within the Lake of Fire (Which is also a temporary place). In Philemon 1:15: Paul mentioned to Philemon how Onesimus was going to return back to him (his master) forever.

Obviously Onesimus is not an immortal man still living upon the Earth with his master (Philemon) today. He was returning back to his master forever within the context of their temporary lives upon the Earth.


Source used:
(Please take note that I do not agree with everything these Christian authors believe, say, or do).
Apttpteach

 

[Johann]

I don't know.

The doctrine of election is the same as justification, since there is not one without the other.

Both are confirmed and ensured by works added to our faith, which are virtuous living, study of the word, moderation in all things, patience in learning and in our walk with God, godliness, kindness and charity from a pure heart.

Virtue begins with believing and doing God's word.




First by faith in the Scriptures, that if we do what God says, He will do what He says.

By faith we confess our sins, and believe His word, that He immediately forgives us. By faith we confess the Lord Jesus, and we believe His word we are saved.

He chooses them, that He sees believe Him from the heart and do His word.

As you've said. Head knowledge is not heart knowledge, nor knowing God. Faith in words is not faith in God. The faith that saves and justifies us, is taking God exactly at His word, and doing it, and believing without doubt He will do what He says.

God chooses them that have faith as Jesus, which is called the faith of Jesus, that we must keep with His commandments.

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


All who here the gospel are now called, by the word being sown in the heart by hearing.

Not all hearers keep the word in their hearts, by doing it.

And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Having the word in our hearts, is what the Lord alone does by hearing His word. God chooses them that keep His word in their hearts by doing His will.

It's the same as the talent given to many, and one chooses to hide it in a napkin, and do nothing about it. That's being hearers only.

God does not save us alone, without us having any part, anymore than God can sow His word in our heart, without even hearing it.

Our part is to keep the word by doing it, and that is them that He chooses and justifies.

Many cars are in a lot, and all were given gas, and yet when the driver comes to choose a car to drive, He finds one with no gas. He goes to choose another car with gas to drive.

And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

Reminds me of this portion--
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Jas 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

--which ties in with Matthew 25--

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


All in all, a good conversation @robert derrick

Shalom
J.

 

[St. SteVen]

Don't play games, not with me @St. SteVen

That sounds like a threat.

You say, "We ARE BEING SAVED from sin's POWER." ???
Did God allow sin to have power over us?

 

[Mr E]

That sounds like a threat.

You say, "We ARE BEING SAVED from sin's POWER." ???
Did God allow sin to have power over us?

He's an afrikaner don't forget. He'll take you and Corn Pop on at the same time with one hand tied behind his back.

Not a joke.

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus (God) saves people from God's eternal wrath. Unless one accepts Jesus as their savior Jesus's father will torture them day and night forever and ever and that's because God is loving and merciful but also just and so if one dies in a state of uncertainty about who is Jesus, they will be placed in a cauldron of hot lava and will be BURNED ALIVE forever and ever!!! Praise our loving God!

That's the standard doctrine in a nutshell. - LOL

 

[Johann]

Did you hit your head and forget why you quoted these men’s names?
Was it not to convince me of ECT?

I think you are deluded, I mentioned Brown, Singer--and you don't think I know who they are?

They have nothing to do with ECT--of which I firmly believe.

Mark 9:44 (Same: Mark 9:48) (Similar to Matthew 25:41) (worms and the fire could potentially be eternal and yet that does not mean the subject that they consumed is eternal).

See how you must twist the Scriptures to fit your belief?

--"potentially be eternal"--yet NOT eternal--
- Jesus clearly states those on His left are to depart into the "ETERNAL FIRE." So Jesus believes in an ETERNAL FIRE. Is that a fair statement based on His own declaration? Secondly, Jesus states this ETERNAL FIRE is a place which has been prepared for the DEVIL. So that begs a question -- If ETERNAL FIRE is not real, then will the devil be let out of that place at some point in the future? Clearly there is no Scripture that supports that premise.

In fact John records the devil's fate in Revelation 20:10+ "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." How long will the devil be tormented according to John? These passages strongly support the premise that eternal fire will last forever, throughout eternity.

Matthew 25:46 (WORDS OF JESUS) “These will go away into eternal (aionios) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionios) life.”

COMMENT - What is Jesus contrasting? Eternal punishment and eternal life. Correct? According to Jesus how long is life? Eternal. According to Jesus how long is punishment? Eternal.

Simple.

In other words, the word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?

In other words, the Bible does not REALLY mean "forever"--it is now "changed" into "completeness" and "totality"
Who is twisting Scriptures now?

Please take note I don't believe what @Bible Highlighter is endorsing. [-on this topic]

 

[Johann]

That sounds like a threat.

You say, "We ARE BEING SAVED from sin's POWER." ???
Did God allow sin to have power over us?

No threat--as @Mr E don't particularly enjoy afrikaners

According to John, our greatest need is to be saved from perishing. But what does perish mean? The best way to answer is to consider biblical statements that illuminate this teaching. For instance, there is Jesus' reference in this same chapter to the "serpent in the wilderness," which Moses lifted up (John 3:14). Jesus was referring to a deadly episode in Israel's history. During the exodus, the people had complained against God, so the Lord sent fiery serpents among them, and many people were bitten and died. This illustrates the warning in John 3:16 that without faith we will perish—that is, we will die.

Those snakes point back to the entry of sin into the world, when the Serpent tempted Adam and Eve to disobey God's command. God had warned them not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, "for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" (Gen. 2:17b). When they disobeyed, however, they did not immediately die; instead, they were expelled from the garden and barred from the Tree of Life. In other words, they perished spiritually; physical death came later. Through their sin as our first parents, and through our own sins, the poison of death has entered our souls. Unless we are saved, we will experience everlasting death. To perish in this sense does not mean to cease to exist, but to be "tormented day and night forever" (Rev. 20:10b). Paul says that those who perish in their sins "will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (2 Thess. 1:9).

This raises a question: How can a God who loves the world permit anyone to perish this way? Jesus answers, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God" (John 3:18). The key word is condemned. The God who loves the world is also a perfectly holy judge. Abraham asked, "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?" (Gen. 18:25). The answer is yes! God's holy nature requires justice. This means that we must be judged for our sins unless they can be removed, the judgment being eternal death (see Rom. 6:23).

This is where God's love enters, because God showed His love for the world by sending His Son to die for our sins. God made a way for us to be forgiven and escape judgment, at infinite cost to Himself. This way requires that we receive God's Son in faith, so that our sins may be transferred to His account at the cross, where Jesus died as "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29b). But if we spurn God's loving offer of salvation and refuse to believe on Jesus Christ, neither we nor God can avoid our condemnation. No unbeliever will suffer in hell because God lacked love, but "because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

 

[St. SteVen]

That is false propaganda. The RCC never gave us our canon.

So what would be outside of the sphere of evangelicalism?
It would be liberalism, and that approach toward the Bible is just unbelief and nonsense.

Well, that just says it all right there.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think you are deluded, I mentioned Brown, Singer--and you don't think I know who they are?

They have nothing to do with ECT--of which I firmly believe.

So your learning from scholarship has no part in your belief in ECT?
In other words, is it not your scholarly approach that helps you to understand ECT?

See how you must twist the Scriptures to fit your belief?

I can say the same for you, but we both cannot be right.

According to ECT, "everlasting destruction" is twisted to be metaphorical, not literal (As it plainly reads).

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (KJB)
“Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”

According to ECT, "the second death" is twisted to no longer be a sequel to "the first death," but it is just an unrelated metaphor.

Revelation 21:8
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

God Alone Has Immortality:

Some believe that man is inherently immortal;​

​

But Jesus (God) alone has immortality.​

​

14 “...our Lord Jesus Christ:​

15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;​

16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.​

​

“....even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.” (Psalms 90:2).​

​

“For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity,...” (Isaiah 57:15).​

The reason why the saints have eternal life is that Christ abides in them.
So you would have to believe that Jesus lives in wicked people in the Lake of Fire in order to give them eternal life, too.

See how you must twist the Scriptures above to fit your belief?

--"potentially be eternal"--yet NOT eternal--

Again, you are missing the point. Whether the worm and fire are eternal does not equate to the subject (i.e., the person being punished) being eternal. For example, God told Moses to take off his sandals because he was standing on holy ground. God is eternal, but the Earth is not (See: Matthew 24:35, Revelation 21:1). But suppose your interpretation of the verse in Mark is true. In that case, we must also suggest that because God is interacting with the creation (like making the ground holy), the Earth must be eternal because God is also eternal. However, such an argument would be faulty reasoning. The point here is that the first three verses I brought up that sound like ECT can include the eternal interpretation and yet also support Conditional Immortality with no problems and this is a dilemma for you.

Meaning, it is ONLY 2 verses you got to support your ECT claim actually because we are not reading the words "for ever and ever" as being eternal. Yet, I already gave you a list of verses that show that words like forever and its related words do not always mean forever. Onesimus is one great example, but your all dope about ECT so you cannot see the forest from the trees. You are hooked on ECT.

- Jesus clearly states those on His left are to depart into the "ETERNAL FIRE."

Hebrews 6:2 says there is a thing called, "eternal judgment."
Are we to assume that God will be judging "saved" and "unsaved" to humanity for the rest of eternity?
Surely not. It is the results of the judgment that are eternal just as the eternal fire will have eternal consequences in destroying the wicked.

Secondly, Jesus states this ETERNAL FIRE is a place which has been prepared for the DEVIL. So that begs a question -- If ETERNAL FIRE is not real, then will the devil be let out of that place at some point in the future? Clearly there is no Scripture that supports that premise.

This is not true.

The Final Fate of the Wicked Also Includes the Annihilation or:


A. Destruction of the Devil:

• Isaiah 14:12, Isaiah 14:1912 ​

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“How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!”19 “....thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.” • Ezekiel 28:12-18​

News Flash: Carcasses are not alive!

• Isaiah 14:12-18​

12 “...Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.​

13 “Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.​

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.​

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.​

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.​

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.​

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.”​

So Scripture tells the devil that he will be destroyed and he will be brought to ashes. So again, you have to bring out the metaphor card or make this passage talk exclusively about this corrupt king only and not the devil.

B. Destruction of the Entity or Power Known As "Death":

• 1 Corinthians 15:26​

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“The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death”​

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Now, stop and think for a moment. Again, if the last enemy to be DESTROYED is “death,” then logic dictates that there are other previous enemies of God who will also be destroyed, too. This means that wicked mankind and the devil and his minions will also be destroyed, as well; For they are also God’s enemies!

So you must play the metaphor card again for this verse above for ECT to be true.

Will ECT folks in this thread admit this truth? Well, metaphorically speaking: My hypothesis is that most here will simply put their fingers in their ears and say, "La, la, la... I don't want Conditional Immortality to be true!"

Therefore they will never see such a truth in Scripture because they are all doped up on ECT.

 

[Phoneman777]

Thanks.
What is your view on spiritual death and spiritual life?

Spiritual death is a present condition remedied only by being born alive spiritually in Jesus.

"She (or he) that liveth in pleasure IS DEAD while she liveth."

However, "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" refers to the Second Death of the impenitent wicked.