Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.

[Patrick1966]

The ECT proponents think that God is a puny, bumbling, incapable, angry, vengeful, and unforgiving being. They reject the biblical description of God.

1 John 4:7-14

7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Then you're problem isn't with me, it's with God.

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

I am aware of your proof texts. You are referring to a verse on the Provisional Atonement. Salvation is conditional when a person reaches the age of accountability. Before that point in time, if a baby or really young child dies, they would go to God’s Kingdom. But there are those whose names were not written in the Lamb’s book of life since the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8). These folks will worship the beast in the future. There is no hope for these kinds of people because of this horrible evil that they will do. It is unforgivable.

 

[Patrick1966]

I am aware of your proof texts. You are referring to the Provisional Atonement verse. Salvation is conditional when a person reaches the age of accountability. Before that point in time, if a baby or really young child dies, they would go to God’s Kingdom. But there are those whose names were not written in the Lamb’s book of life since the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8). These are the folks who worship the beast. There is no hope for them because of this action.

We can agree to disagree. God bless you, my brother.

 

[Johann]

My brother, I like to discuss and share. It's ok if you and I don't see eye-to-eye on everything. None of us have all of the answers.

I really like your kind attitude--and you are right-none of us have all the answers.
J.

 

[Johann]

I'm still not sure about this but if Hell is not a place of eternal, conscious torment then why does it say in the Bible that there will be weeping and knashing of teeth in hell? Thank for any answers!

Right on--what is written, stands written-Perfect Tense.

 

[Patrick1966]

I really like your kind attitude--and you are right-none of us have all the answers.
J.

Thanks.

I encourage you to take a look at this.

Excerpt:

If “forever” can seem to work as a translation, why quibble about it? The problem is there are also dozens of verses where this translation would be nonsensical. Consider, for example, when the resurrected Jesus gave encouragement to his disciples on a mountain in Galilee: “and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world [aiōnos]” (Matt 28:20; KJV). Clearly, this couldn’t be translated as “unto the end of the forever”, or “unto the end of the eternity”. So, what is going on with the original Greek? The Greek closes ἕωςτῆς συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος, which translates more literally as “until the completion of the age [aiōnos]”. Yet here, the KJV suddenly chooses “world”.
It does so in many other instances where “forever” would be clearly unsuitable. Consider Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, where he warns the fledgling church “be not conformed to this world” (Rom 12:2; KJV). The Greek here is μὴ συσχηματίζεσθε τῷ αἰῶνι, quite literally “be not conformed to the age [aiōni]”. Clearly, “be not conformed to this forever” or “be not conformed to this eternity” would make no sense. And so the KJV and many other major English-language bibles, which translate aion as “forever” elsewhere, are here forced to use a very different word: “world”.
In other instances, the problems posed are even more obvious, because it is explicitly stated that the aion has an end, and therefore cannot be eternal. Consider Jesus’ parable of the tares: “As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world [aiōnos]” (Matt 13:40; KJV). Of course, one cannot speak of the end of an eternity!

 

[Johann]

Thanks.

I encourage you to take a look at this.

Excerpt:

If “forever” can seem to work as a translation, why quibble about it? The problem is there are also dozens of verses where this translation would be nonsensical. Consider, for example, when the resurrected Jesus gave encouragement to his disciples on a mountain in Galilee: “and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world [aiōnos]” (Matt 28:20; KJV). Clearly, this couldn’t be translated as “unto the end of the forever”, or “unto the end of the eternity”. So, what is going on with the original Greek? The Greek closes ἕωςτῆς συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος, which translates more literally as “until the completion of the age [aiōnos]”. Yet here, the KJV suddenly chooses “world”.
It does so in many other instances where “forever” would be clearly unsuitable. Consider Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, where he warns the fledgling church “be not conformed to this world” (Rom 12:2; KJV). The Greek here is μὴ συσχηματίζεσθε τῷ αἰῶνι, quite literally “be not conformed to the age [aiōni]”. Clearly, “be not conformed to this forever” or “be not conformed to this eternity” would make no sense. And so the KJV and many other major English-language bibles, which translate aion as “forever” elsewhere, are here forced to use a very different word: “world”.
In other instances, the problems posed are even more obvious, because it is explicitly stated that the aion has an end, and therefore cannot be eternal. Consider Jesus’ parable of the tares: “As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world [aiōnos]” (Matt 13:40; KJV). Of course, one cannot speak of the end of an eternity!

Are you a Universalist?

THE GREEK WORD AIONIOS

ADDENDUM: Since this article has generated negative critical feedback from universalists, those who hold to the unbiblical belief that every soul ever born will be saved and saved forever, I have been prompted to add a short note at the beginning because a universalist will not likely read the entire article. Much could be said, but the essence of the truth stands or falls on one word.

What does the word eternal (aionios) mean as it is used in Scripture, NOT as it is used by secular writers, including ancient Greek writers? Thankfully, God's Spirit has used the word aionios numerous times so one may glean an excellent sense of what this word means in the Bible. Can you find Greek "authorities" who say aionios does not mean eternal? Absolutely, but every man that claims to be an "authority" on this word is also a sinner and his words are not inspired by God, and thus are fallible and subject to error (they are not inerrant)! Only God's Word is inspired by the Spirit of God (Who is the Spirit of Truth). Only God's Word is infallible. Only God's Word is inerrant. Therefore whatever God says on ANY subject is absolute truth, and takes absolute precedence over how the same word was used in the writings of fallen men. That said, here is what the GOD OF TRUTH SAYS about the crucial word ETERNAL (aionios) (And these are only a few examples to make the point).

Matthew 25:41 (WORDS OF JESUS) “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionios) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

COMMENT - Jesus clearly states those on His left are to depart into the "ETERNAL FIRE." So Jesus believes in an ETERNAL FIRE. Is that a fair statement based on His own declaration? Secondly, Jesus states this ETERNAL FIRE is a place which has been prepared for the DEVIL. So that begs a question -- If ETERNAL FIRE is not real, then will the devil be let out of that place at some point in the future? Clearly there is no Scripture that supports that premise. In fact John records the devil's fate in Revelation 20:10+ "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." How long will the devil be tormented according to John? These passages strongly support the premise that eternal fire will last forever, throughout eternity.

Matthew 25:46 (WORDS OF JESUS) “These will go away into eternal (aionios) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionios) life.”

Shall we continue--or are you mind made up that eternal does NOT mean eternal in Scriptures?

 

[Patrick1966]

Are you a Universalist?

Yes. So is God.


Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

 

[Patrick1966]

Shall we continue--or are you mind made up that eternal does NOT mean eternal in Scriptures?

Did you the excerpt of the article that I shared?

 

[Johann]

I am just saying that your method of study has to be replicatable that leaves no room for any error or mistake. When we talk about the original languages we get into the manuscript witnesses and not even all of the manuscripts say the exact same thing precisely. So not all Hebrew manuscripts agree. Not all Greek manuscripts agree. One has to choose which line of manuscripts they want to side with for one. So that’s a major strike out for your positon here. Second, Hebrew is a revived language but it is not exactly the same as the old one in every precise way. Even the grammar is slightly different according to certain linguists. Modern Greek is different than Biblical Greek (Koine Greek). To say that we can just learn these languages with 100% certainty from some expert who wrote a book way after these languages were dead and gone is highly problematic to say the least. We can make educated guesses as to what they mean, but that is about it. You don’t have a time machine to honestly know these languages in how they were actually spoken in that culture precisely.

Modern scholars like James Strong and his buddies put together his lexicon or Greek to English dictionary. But this was in the wake of the Modern Translation movement that departed from the King James Bible (that was THE BIBLE for hundreds of years). James Strong worked on the ASV (American Standard Version) of the Bible that was the first Modern Translation pitch to the US. Strong’s textual basis for the ASV was the Critical Text which is a line of manuscripts tied to the Catholic church. We can even see changes in Modern bibles like these that favor the Catholic church.


I did address your one post on Mattehw 25:46, and I showed that an ECT interpretation is not the only way to interpet such a verse.
I say this because you think your interpretation is the only way to read it.



While we are to be fruitful for the Kingdom, believers should not boast in any work they do because it is actually Jesus Christ doing the good work through them. It’s why 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus.



Again, you and I know nothing about these words than the man on the moon does. You can make educated guesses about what they say but the only real way we can have some glimpse to what they really say is to simply trust what our Bible says in the English.

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.


The method you employ is actually from the wake of the Modern Translation movement. It’s a method that seeks to ascertain what God may have said because one does not really have His perfect and precise words. So the individual or the scholar becomes the final Word of authority and not the Bible.


And you would then be living in a fantasy world. They are dead languages. Kione Greek has died out as a language. Yes, recent scholars have tried to determine what this language says hindsight and by guesswork but they are not relying upon a culture that speaks this language. Biblical Hebrew died out and then it was revived in what is known as Modern Hebrew today. They are similar but not precisely the same.

This was a nice try-not knowing, or familiar with scholarly work, or can even name names of prominent scholars--actually, Dr. Michael Brown would laugh you out of court, and so Tovia Singer, Scobac, Wallace-and many more.

You once believed in eternal, conscious torment, when you were "wet" behind the ears--so stick with "eternal" Olam in the KJV-and don't alter the word, here and there.

A excerpt

As a corollary, a good scholar should also have an acute awareness of their need to depend upon the work of other scholars to enhance one’s own research. Good scholars will not pretend that they know everything, but they will instead draw from the work of colleagues who have done remarkable research in their own areas. If you are into literary studies, why not benefit from those in backgrounds? If you are a text critic, why not benefit from specialists in reception history? Good scholars can find enrichment by reading broadly and attempting to be interdisciplinary, while recognizing that one cannot possibly be a specialist in every area. We need one another.

So, a good scholar will know oneself and will also benefit from others.



Sean Adams, Lecturer in New Testament and Ancient Culture, University of Glasgow
Although the image of the lone scholar is prominent, it is not really accurate. All of us need other scholars to sharpen our ideas and to gain new viewpoints on the texts. As a result, it is important for scholars to be humble regarding their ideas and to be able to work with others.

Not only do both of these traits make you a more agreeable person to work with (an important factor in getting a job and retaining good colleagues), but they also help one to recognize that they do not need to have all the answers, and that their work, as well as all of scholarship, is a process; one that will continue long after we are gone.

 

[St. SteVen]

There are two lines of Bible manuscripts in history.

Sounds like you don't really understand what a manuscript even is.

You have the Catholic line of manuscripts (Which is where all the Modern bibles come from primarily).
Then you have the line of Bible manuscripts that the Catholics had sought to destroy (along with killing those who copied them).

Madness.
So, which line did the Catholic Church use to create our biblical canon?

Modern bibles are actually based upon the Nestle & Aland (Which is supervised by the Vatican). Proof? It says so right in the 27th edition.

What happened to the Catholic "line" of manuscripts they the RCC used to create our canon?

It’s bone chilling (Unless one is a liberal).

Yes, having an open mind and critical thinking ability dashes our evangelical upbringing.
Very eye-opening. Or terrifying, depending on what you value. Truth, or evangelicalism.

 

[St. SteVen]

It's a shame I have to argue with people that death is the opposite of life - that's it's the CESSATION of life, not a continuation thereof. I'm glad you understand the truth.

Thanks.
What is your view on spiritual death and spiritual life?

 

[St. SteVen]

Most of your Modern bibles are influenced by the Catholic Church.
The King James Bible translators had used Erasmus work but he was saved by Luther and Erasmus was looking to reform the church from within instead of from without. Granted, that was a mistake, but Erasmus was not looked upon favorably in history by the Catholic church.

You are KJO then? (King James only)

 

[Johann]

Did you the excerpt of the article that I shared?

No need to engage in further debate--I am not a universalist.

 

[St. SteVen]

No need to engage in further debate--I am not a universalist.

You say that like it is a bad thing. - LOL

Did Jesus die to save us from God?

 

[Johann]

Thanks.

I encourage you to take a look at this.

Excerpt:

If “forever” can seem to work as a translation, why quibble about it? The problem is there are also dozens of verses where this translation would be nonsensical. Consider, for example, when the resurrected Jesus gave encouragement to his disciples on a mountain in Galilee: “and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world [aiōnos]” (Matt 28:20; KJV). Clearly, this couldn’t be translated as “unto the end of the forever”, or “unto the end of the eternity”. So, what is going on with the original Greek? The Greek closes ἕωςτῆς συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος, which translates more literally as “until the completion of the age [aiōnos]”. Yet here, the KJV suddenly chooses “world”.
It does so in many other instances where “forever” would be clearly unsuitable. Consider Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, where he warns the fledgling church “be not conformed to this world” (Rom 12:2; KJV). The Greek here is μὴ συσχηματίζεσθε τῷ αἰῶνι, quite literally “be not conformed to the age [aiōni]”. Clearly, “be not conformed to this forever” or “be not conformed to this eternity” would make no sense. And so the KJV and many other major English-language bibles, which translate aion as “forever” elsewhere, are here forced to use a very different word: “world”.
In other instances, the problems posed are even more obvious, because it is explicitly stated that the aion has an end, and therefore cannot be eternal. Consider Jesus’ parable of the tares: “As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world [aiōnos]” (Matt 13:40; KJV). Of course, one cannot speak of the end of an eternity!

In the plural we have the Heb. 'olamim and Gr. 'aiones used of ages, or of a succession of age-times, and of an abiding age to age. From this comes the adjective aionios , used of an unrestricted duration, as distinct from a particular or limited age-time. These age-times must be distinct or they could not be added to, or multiplied, as in the expression aions of aions . These ages or age-times were all prepared and arranged by God (see Heb_1:2; Heb_11:3); and there is a constant distinction in the New Testament between "this age", and the "coming age" (see Mat_12:32. Heb_1:2. Eph_1:21).

 

[Johann]

You say that like it is a bad thing. - LOL

Did Jesus die to save us from God?

This is not even worthwhile to respond to.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:

You say that like it is a bad thing. - LOL
Did Jesus die to save us from God?

This is not worthy to reply.

Yet here we are.

What did Jesus save us from?

 

[Johann]

St. SteVen said:

You say that like it is a bad thing. - LOL
Did Jesus die to save us from God?

Yet here we are.

What did Jesus save us from?

We ARE BEING SAVED from sin's POWER.

Until that day, we are in the process of being saved from sin's power: “To us who are being saved [the cross] is the power of God” (1 Cor. 1:18).
1Co 1:18 for the word of the cross to those indeed perishing is foolishness, and to us—those being saved—it is the power of God,
1Co 1:19 for it hath been written, 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the intelligence of the intelligent I will bring to nought;'
1Co 1:20 where is the wise? where the scribe? where a disputer of this age? did not God make foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co 1:21 for, seeing in the wisdom of God the world through the wisdom knew not God, it did please God through the foolishness of the preaching to save those believing.
1Co 1:22 Since also Jews ask a sign, and Greeks seek wisdom,
1Co 1:23 also we—we preach Christ crucified, to Jews, indeed, a stumbling-block, and to Greeks foolishness,
1Co 1:24 and to those called—both Jews and Greeks—Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God,
1Co 1:25 because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men;
1Co 1:26 for see your calling, brethren, that not many are wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;
1Co 1:27 but the foolish things of the world did God choose, that the wise He may put to shame; and the weak things of the world did God choose that He may put to shame the strong;
1Co 1:28 and the base things of the world, and the things despised did God choose, and the things that are not, that the things that are He may make useless—
1Co 1:29 that no flesh may glory before Him;
1Co 1:30 and of Him ye—ye are in Christ Jesus, who became to us from God wisdom, righteousness also, and sanctification, and redemption,
1Co 1:31 that, according as it hath been written, 'He who is glorying—in the Lord let him glory.'

1) "For the preaching of the cross." (Greek ho gar ho tou staurou) "For the (word or testimony) of the cross." The term "Preaching" in the King James Version is translated from "logos" which literally means the Word, story, testimony, or witness of the cross and its implication Gal_6:14.

2) "Is to them that perish foolishness." To those (Greek men apolumenois) "on the one hand perishing." It (the cross) is (Greek moria) "moronity, folly, or stupidity," The lost, the unsaved apart from the Holy Spirit, can not comprehend it, Joh_1:5; 1Co_2:14.

3) "But unto us which are saved." On the other hand, to those (now) (Greek sozomenois) being saved, - to us, Paul asserts, it is (exists as) (Greek dunamis theou) the energetic, dynamic power of God. In the cross of Christ Christians glory, Gal_3:13; Eph_2:16; Col_1:20.

4) "It is the power of God." The cross symbolizes blood redemption, wrought for all men, by Jesus Christ, through his accursed death. Deu_21:23. It is the story (logos) testimony or witness of the Christ of Calvary through which all men may be saved and of which none should be ashamed, Rom_1:14-16; Rom_10:8-11.

Don't play games, not with me @St. SteVen

 

[Patrick1966]

No need to engage in further debate--I am not a universalist.

So you didn't read it? It gives clear evidence of the mistranslation.