Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.

[Mr E]

It is appointed once for men to die, and after that the judgement.

Bingo.

And so it is.

 

[St. SteVen]

Some try to say that the phrase "in the heart of the earth" in Matthew 12:40 does not mean buried in a grave or tomb. Those who support this theory say that heart implies "middle of" or "midst of," and earth should really be translated as "country" or "world." Thus, the argument runs, Jesus is actually saying that He would be three days and nights in Jerusalem, since it was the center of the nations according to Ezekiel 5:5: "This is Jerusalem; I have set her in the midst of the nations and the countries all around her." Supporters do not say how Jesus' being in Jerusalem for this amount of time can act as a sign of His Messiahship.

Nope.
That's not what I am saying at all.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?

Answer: the realm of the dead

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.” 9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

1 Peter 4:6 NRSV
For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

 

[Patrick1966]

Would you say "all" would be saved, even if they don't believe?

Not all will be saved from a visit to the Lake of Fire but ALL will be saved from eternal death. The Lake of Fire is a tool or a process. Also, GOD is the Lake of Fire.

Hebrews 12:29
for our God is a consuming fire.

 

[St. SteVen]

Barnes Notes says:

In the heart of the earth - The Jews used the word “heart” to denote the “interior” of a thing, or to speak of being in a thing. It means, here, to be in the grave or sepulchre.​

No preaching to the imprisoned spirits then?

 

[Mr E]

Not all will be saved from a visit to the Lake of Fire but ALL will be saved from eternal death. The Lake of Fire is a tool or a process. Also, GOD is the Lake of Fire.

Hebrews 12:29
for our God is a consuming fire.

No, the lake of fire is an end.

The second (and final) death. After which- you are no more.

 

[Patrick1966]

Bingo.

And so it is.

And what comes after judgment?

 

[Patrick1966]

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

The ECT supporters will skip this (and other) verse.

 

[Patrick1966]

You don't know what you are talking about. Consider, not talking about it.

 

[Patrick1966]

@Mr E If Jesus doesn't save all then he is NOT the savior of ALL. As 1 Timothy 4:10 clearly states, Jesus is the savior of ALL men. My brother, your understanding is incorrect.

 

[Johann]

Nope.
That's not what I am saying at all.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?

Answer: the realm of the dead

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, Ephesians 4:8-10 This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.” 9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

1 Peter 4:6 NRSV
For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

I have already dealt with this and quoted these passages, so I don't know "No, this is not what I am saying"

Tell me, what did Christ preached/ proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— ?

 

[Mr E]

@Mr E If Jesus doesn't save all then he is NOT the savior of ALL. As 1 Timothy 4:10 clearly states, Jesus is the savior of ALL men. My brother, your understanding is incorrect.

What is your concept of justice?

1 Tim 4:10???

Especially of believers---- What does that mean to you?


When you stand before HIM, you are confronted with the truth. How many times must you stand before HIM confronted with the truth, before you repent? 3 strikes.... you're out.

The second death. And then you are no more.

 

[Patrick1966]

No problem, I don't know what I'm talking about, you, however, do.

I appreciate your feedback. Please ignore his uncharitable comments and continue to post.

 

[Patrick1966]

Especially of believers---- What does that mean to you?

It's sort of like the U.S. deploying a naval vessel to rescue people from an island battered by a hurricane. They are going to rescue everybody but ESPECIALLY the Americans that are there.

 

[Mr E]

It's sort of like the U.S. deploying a naval vessel to rescue people from an island battered by a hurricane. They are going to rescue everybody but ESPECIALLY the Americans that are there.

It's not.

It's like--

“A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came looking for fruit on it and found none. So he said to the worker who tended the vineyard, ‘For three years now, I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree, and each time I inspect it I find none. Cut it down! Why should it continue to deplete the soil?’ But the worker answered him, ‘Sir, leave it alone this year too, until I dig around it and put fertilizer on it. Then if it bears fruit next year, very well, but if not, you can cut it down.’”


The fruitless trees eventually get cut down and thrown to the fire for consumption. This is hell.

But as for the cowards, unbelievers, detestable persons, murderers, the sexually immoral, and those who practice magic spells, idol worshipers, and all those who lie, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. That is the second death.”


Maybe you don't believe it.... those are just your beliefs.

 

[St. SteVen]

Tell me, what did Christ preached/ proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— ?

1 Peter 4:6 NRSV
For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead,
so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged,
they might live in the spirit as God does.


Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

 

[Johann]

I appreciate your feedback. Please ignore his uncharitable comments and continue to post.

You appreciate my feedback?
3) "Who is the Saviour of all men" (hos estin soter panton anthropon) "Who exists as the saviour (available) of all men," Joh_4:42, of mankind He is the Saviour. As the Father had life – self –existent life, as a divine attribute, so He gave the Son to have eternal, self-existent life to impart to every believer, ; 1Ti_2:3; 1Ti_2:6.

4) "Specially of those that believe." (malista piston) "Especially or specifically of the believers, the ones trusting." The idea is He is the available Saviour who has Himself provided salvation for all men, but is the effective Saviour only or especially to the responsible believers who by faith have voluntarily trusted in Him, Joh_8:24; Mar_16:16; Joh_3:16; Rom_10:9.

Saviour of all men (sōtēr pantōn anthrōpōn). See note on 1Ti_1:1 for sōtēr applied to God as here.

Not that all men “are saved” in the full sense, but God gives life (1Ti_6:13) to all (Act_17:28).

Specially of them that believe (malista pistōn). Making a distinction in the kinds of salvation meant. “While God is potentially Saviour of all, He is actually Saviour of the pistoi” (White). So Jesus is termed “Saviour of the World” (Joh_4:42). Cf. Gal_6:10.


all men. When our first parents incurred the penalty of immediate judicial death, the race would have been extinguished, had not God interposed, before dealing with the culprits, with the promise of the Redeemer, and so suspending the execution of the sentence denounced.



specially. Occurs in the N.T. twelve times. Rendered "specially", "especially "(nine); "most of all" (Act_20:36); "chiefly" (Php_1:4, Php_1:22. 2Pe_2:10).

those that believe = the believing.

Thus we see that even unbelievers are protected by God, as it is said (Mat_5:46) that “he maketh his sun to shine on the good and the bad;” and we see that all are fed by his goodness, that all are delivered from many dangers.

In this sense he is called “the Savior of all men,” not in regard to the spiritual salvation of their souls, but because he supports all his creatures.

In this way, therefore, our Lord is the Savior of all men, that is, his goodness extends to the most wicked, who are estranged from him, and who do not deserve to have any intercourse with him, who ought to have been struck off from the number of the creatures of God and destroyed; and yet we see how God hitherto extends his grace to them; for the life which he gives to them is a testimony of his goodness.

Since, therefore God shows such favor towards those who are strangers to him, how shall it be with us who are members of his household? Not that we are better or more excellent than those whom we see to be cast off by him, but the whole proceeds from his mercy and free grace, that he is reconciled to us through our Lord Jesus Christ, since he hath called us to the knowledge of the gospel, and then confirms us, and seals his bounty toward us, so that we ought to be convinced that he reckons us to be his children. Since, therefore, we see that he nourishes those who are estranged from him, let us go and hide ourselves under his wings; for, having taken us under his protection, he has declared that he will show himself to be a Father toward us.” — Fr. Ser.

Still in agreement?

 

[Johann]

1 Peter 4:6 NRSV
For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead,
so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged,
they might live in the spirit as God does.


Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

I asked you a direct question--What did Messiah proclaimed to the spirits? The gospel? Second chance?

 

[Patrick1966]

Still in agreement?

1 Timothy 4:10 speaks for itself. If you disagree, your disagreement isn't with me, it's with God.

 

[Patrick1966]

Second chance?

Some people don't even have a first chance.

Take a 16-year-old kid that grew up without a father and whose mother was a crack addict. The kid's only mentors were neighborhood gang bangers. One day the 16-year-old tried to carjack somebody and was shot and killed.

Is it your belief that the kid had his chance, blew it, and now will suffer forever in Hell because that's God's justice at work?

 

[gadar]

What is your concept of justice?

1 Tim 4:10???

Especially of believers---- What does that mean to you?


When you stand before HIM, you are confronted with the truth. How many times must you stand before HIM confronted with the truth, before you repent? 3 strikes.... you're out.

The second death. And then you are no more.

Good question. Is our anthropocentric concept of justice the same as the theocentric concept of justice? In this sense, neither ECT nor annihilationism qualifies in my opinion. In both of these cases, punishment is meted out by eternal torment or by extinguishment. But are these punishments God's sense of justice?

We would both certainly agree that being condemned to the lake of fire qualifies as punishment but does it meet the demands of justice? For example, a rapist could rape a woman. He claims he is innocent and is not repentant for his crime but is found guilty and sentenced to prison. We would agree that the rapist is being punished but the rape victim will have to live with the consequences of what happened to her for the rest of her life. Is that justice as the victim has life-long consequences through no fault of her own? Suppose yet that a child was conceived and born as a result of the rape and the mother now has the responsibility to raise the child on her own while the perpetrator does nothing but sit in jail. Is that justice? Based on this example, it can be argued that there is a difference between punishment and justice as the former does not always meet the demands of the latter. The pertinent question to consider then is how can punishment also meet the demands of justice in this example? I submit that the answer demands that the perpetrator of the crime must willingly agree to make amends and seek reconciliation with the one whom he violated. He needs to admit guilt, seek forgiveness and make recompense for his crime - perhaps some sort of ongoing financial obligation/child support when he leaves prison and hopefully gets a job. The point is, justice is only accomplished when the perpetrator participates in making amends toward the one he is guilty of offending.

I believe this human scenario approximates the picture of how God deals with us justly for our sins against Him. There is biblical precedent for this view of punishment/justice throughout the scriptures. For example, Ex 22:1 states: "If a man steals an ox or a sheep, and kills it or sells it, he shall repay five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep." In the NT, Zacchaeus promises Jesus that he will restore fourfold those whom he has defrauded. These instances exemplify that justice demands not just the aspect of punishment but also recompense in order to make amends and fully bring about God's justice.

Given this scriptural evidence, we can apply this to the concept of an eternal hell. Being condemned to eternal punishment in the lake of fire certainly constitutes as punishment but it does not bring about God's justice because the inhabitants in the lake of fire have no opportunity to admit their guilt, seek forgiveness and seek to make recompense as it is "already too late." They must suffer the consequence of their sin forever. There is no chance for amends and reconciliation with God and therein lies the weakness with the retributive eternal punishment of hell. The view of the lake of fire that is most consistent with the scriptures and the character of God is the view where the lake of fire is for the purpose of chastisement where sinners recognize their sin against God, repent and seek forgiveness from the Lamb. Of course they, like all of us cannot repay their debt against God except that they believe in the sacrificial atonement of Jesus to make recompense for their sin. Like the rapist example it requires willing participation on their part as guilty sinners before a holy God. This reconciliation model of the lake of fire requires that the sinners must endure the purifying fires of hell in order that they may seek reconciliation with the Lamb who is also present in the lake of fire (Rev 14:10) so that one day God's ultimate goal of reconciliation is achieved. "For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross" (Col 1:19-20) which results in "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil 2:10-11).

The concept of justice with God is impossible with the eternal conscious torment view of hell as well as with the annihilation view of hell as those in the lake of fire are never reconciled to God as defined by Scripture.