Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author

[quietthinker]

I don't know where you guys come from! But I do know that you all completely ignore the Word of God for an agenda!

Charlie, the Word of God is Jesus, John tells us that. Jesus is the one who represents God fully and accurately.

The written word of God (the scriptures) requires us to understand it in its context. For example David writes about bathing his feet in his enemies blood and hoping God would break their teeth. Does that sound like something Jesus would say or do? There are many other examples about how OT folk saw, their vision being limited and flawed.

Violence was how the OT guys thought problems are solved.....it is no different to how the world thinks problems are solved. God does not operate like that....'his kingdom is not of this world otherwise his servants would fight', remember Jesus saying that?

So, when we use the blanket term of the Bible being the word of God, it needs to be qualified otherwise we really don't understand what we are saying.

 

[Gottservant]

I have encountered some that I thought had fallen into this trap.

[...]

A true Bibliolator will demand chapter and verse to support my premise. - LOL

The bottom line:
Let's use the Bible to grow closer to God and each other, rather than as a weapon to destroy each other.

John 13:35 NIV
By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

I love that you are tackling this issue - LOL

However, I think it is more the place of the Holy Spirit, to convict those whose maturity is lacking (and whose worship of the Bible, is not yet written in their heart).

Reading the Bible, will never get it written in your heart - that is an important point to make, just as the Church is not the building. But how do we, as mature, grow in patience, with those that don't understand their folly?

I think being temperate and of few words, is a better approach. But naturally, I welcome criticism (to a degree!).

 

[St. SteVen]

I wish it were true also, Steven. But we don't have the authority to teach something from God's Word that has no foundation.

The UR teaches this stuff as a fact, it is not a fact but wishful thinking.

I was thinking about this post while packing my lunch for work today. The pickle may have been the trigger. - LOL
Had been thinking of this discussion as an aside to the topic. Then it dawned on me that it IS the topic.

Since you wish UR was true (but "know" it isn't), that means (what you perceive as) God's plan is disappointing. But...
"knowing" that the Bible is superior to your best hopes, you opted to stick with the book rather than question it.

That sounds a lot like Bibliolatry to me. Dissatisfied with the message, but we're stuck with it, cause... it's the book,
And we "know" the book is more important than anything we could hope for. Too bad there's no alternative. Sad.

cc: @quietthinker @stunnedbygrace @jeff saunders @Chadrho

 

[St. SteVen]

I love that you are tackling this issue - LOL

However, I think it is more the place of the Holy Spirit, to convict those whose maturity is lacking (and whose worship of the Bible, is not yet written in their heart).

Reading the Bible, will never get it written in your heart - that is an important point to make, just as the Church is not the building. But how do we, as mature, grow in patience, with those that don't understand their folly?

I think being temperate and of few words, is a better approach. But naturally, I welcome criticism (to a degree!).

Thanks for your heart-warming post.

What I am seeing is MATURE believers opting for a relationship with a book AHEAD of a relationship with the author.
Those who are consumed with study, and getting it right, and debating the "facts", and putting other believers in their place.
Learning to use the book as a weapon to torment the Bride of Christ. What devilry is this?

If only...
what you are writing about maturity were the standard for Christian growth. That would be wonderful.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I was thinking about this post while packing my lunch for work today. The pickle may have been the trigger. - LOL
Had been thinking of this discussion as an aside to the topic. Then it dawned on me that it IS the topic.

Since you wish UR was true (but "know" it isn't), that means (what you perceive as) God's plan is disappointing. But...
"knowing" that the Bible is superior to your best hopes, you opted to stick with the book rather than question it.

That sounds a lot like Bibliolatry to me. Dissatisfied with the message, but we're stuck with it, cause... it's the book,
And we "know" the book is more important than anything we could hope for. Too bad there's no alternative. Sad.

cc: @quietthinker @stunnedbygrace @jeff saunders @Chadrho

I think the problem is arrogance. The arrogance of thinking no one can possibly know more than you do. The arrogance of thinking there’s nothing beyond what you think and nothing beyond your own experience. It’s actually refusing to enter in yourself and then trying to prevent others from entering in too.

Im really not even talking about UR. I’ve seen that men insist 1. heaven and 2. hell to lake of fire are the only two fates. I’ve seen that’s wrong. There are four types of men, four final fates/destinies, four rivers that flowed out of Eden. They are mentioned in Revelation: wicked, filthy, righteous, holy.
And one of the rivers dries up and is no more (Euphrates) annihilation, leaving only three eternal destinies.
I have here used the understanding, explanation and writings of episkopos.

 

[St. SteVen]

I think the problem is arrogance. The arrogance of thinking no one can possibly know more than you do. The arrogance of thinking there’s nothing beyond what you think and nothing beyond your own experience. It’s actually refusing to enter in yourself and then trying to prevent others from entering in too.

Agree. I would add tribalism/denominationalism. Us against them.
Easy to identify a religious cult. They are in the church across the street from yours.
And they feel the same way about you. (where does this take us?)

Im really not even talking about UR. I’ve seen that men insist 1. heaven and 2. hell to lake of fire are the only two fates. I’ve seen that’s wrong. There are four types of men, four final fates/destinies, four rivers that flowed out of Eden. They are mentioned in Revelation: wicked, filthy, righteous, holy.
And one of the rivers dries up and is no more (Euphrates) annihilation, leaving only three eternal destinies.
I have here used the understanding, explanation and writings of episkopos.

YES!
These are the sort of discussions that should be happening! Thanks.
Have you done a topic on this?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Agree. I would add tribalism/denominationalism. Us against them.
Easy to identify a religious cult. They are in the church across the street from yours.
And they feel the same way about you. (where does this take us?)

YES!
These are the sort of discussions that should be happening! Thanks.
Have you done a topic on this?

No, I haven’t done a topic specifically on it. But if you pm episkopos he will probably be either glad to start one or to discuss privately or to direct you to his writing on it in Wordpress.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I had never seen denominationalism as tribalism…! I see it now.

 

[St. SteVen]

No, I haven’t done a topic specifically on it. But if you pm episkopos he will probably be either glad to start one or to discuss privately or to direct you to his writing on it in Wordpress.

Thanks.
I didn't remember that @Episkopos was a poster here when I read your post.
Thought it was an early church father name I didn't recognize. LOL

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I saw it more as: let’s make a name for ourselves…but yeah, tribalism.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Thanks.
I didn't remember that @Episkopos was a poster here when I read your post.
Thought it was an early church father name I didn't recognize. LOL

Hah! Funny. :)

 

[St. SteVen]

I saw it more as: let’s make a name for ourselves…

Yes. That can take several different routes depending on motive. Inclusive, or exclusive?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes. That can take several different routes depending on motive. Inclusive, or exclusive?

What do you mean? By inclusive or exclusive?

 

[quietthinker]

I don't know where you guys come from! But I do know that you all completely ignore the Word of God for an agenda!

In Matt. 7:13-14 Jesus plainly tells us that the majority of mankind is not going to make it to heaven.

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

7:19
"Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."

I'd like to comment further.....and yes, you are right I do have an agenda and that is to speak well of God, which I might add, the OT is not always prone to do...and Jesus had to straighten the perception of the readers out 'you have heard said...but I say unto you....' and yes, your quotes from from Jesus are true....the way of life is found by few, why? because what is deemed by most as the way of life is one of sanctioning violence in its varied forms thinking it is piety and they do so because they perceive God as doing so.

So, bring forth good fruit, fruit that honours our God, fruit that encourages folk to look closer at the once in eternity event, the incarnation of the eternal as flesh and blood.....and let us eat that flesh and drink that blood so that we sing his praises to all in our circle of influence.

 

[Gottservant]

I'd like to comment further.....
[...]
....and let us eat that flesh and drink that blood so that we sing his praises to all in our circle of influence.

You nailed it, right at the end. Flesh and blood.

But not just the flesh and blood of Christ: the flesh and blood of the mature Christ.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Thanks.
I didn't remember that @Episkopos was a poster here when I read your post.
Thought it was an early church father name I didn't recognize. LOL

Aw yikes, I just saw that you did that @ thing. He doesn’t always answer one of those. It would almost immediately ruin your thread if he spoke here because there are men who follow him everywhere (some of them for over a decade and from other forums) to create Problems because they hate what he says. It would be better for the peace and quiet of your thread to go to one of his threads if you have a question about it! :)

 

[Charlie24]

Is God demanding as you assume? Does God give a gift and then require reciprocation and if one doesn't reciprocate he kills you?....that's hardly a gift!
This view, which is held by the majority of the Christian Church at large I would suggest is Satan painting God with his own characteristics and many who claim to be on God's side have taken the bait wholesale.

Propagating this view misrepresents God and gives his creatures every reason to be apprehensive of him. It is in direct conflict with the picture of a self sacrificing Creator who condescends so that those same creatures can actually see what he is like.....what is at his core.

I'd like to comment further.....and yes, you are right I do have an agenda and that is to speak well of God, which I might add, the OT is not always prone to do...and Jesus had to straighten the perception of the readers out 'you have heard said...but I say unto you....' and yes, your quotes from from Jesus are true....the way of life is found by few, why? because what is deemed by most as the way of life is one of sanctioning violence in its varied forms thinking it is piety and they do so because they perceive God as doing so.

So, bring forth good fruit, fruit that honours our God, fruit that encourages folk to look closer at the once in eternity event, the incarnation of the eternal as flesh and blood.....and let us eat that flesh and drink that blood so that we sing his praises to all in our circle of influence.

The difference in the OT times and the New is the amount of knowledge given to man. That knowledge of God came over time, ever progressing. God knew man would fall and the only answer to man's problem would be a price that fallen man could not pay.

The sin debt of man had to be paid, a Holy God demanded that it be paid, and it had to be paid by a man. This is the reason for the incarnation of Christ. He came to save us from our sins.

But this took time, God had to find a birthplace for Christ, prepare this place for His coming. He chose Israel, and gave them His Law through one of their own, Moses.

The absence of light is the reason for barbaric nature of man in the OT. What does the Scripture say about this time period? Paul gives us some information in his sermon at Mars Hill to the Greeks in Athens.

Acts 17:30-31

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

Because of the absence of light, God withheld Judgment in those times. But now that Christ has come, and the light has increased to man, God has set the time of His judgment. The judgment will be based on the amount of light man had in the time period in which he lived.

 

[Charlie24]

I was thinking about this post while packing my lunch for work today. The pickle may have been the trigger. - LOL
Had been thinking of this discussion as an aside to the topic. Then it dawned on me that it IS the topic.

Since you wish UR was true (but "know" it isn't), that means (what you perceive as) God's plan is disappointing. But...
"knowing" that the Bible is superior to your best hopes, you opted to stick with the book rather than question it.

That sounds a lot like Bibliolatry to me. Dissatisfied with the message, but we're stuck with it, cause... it's the book,
And we "know" the book is more important than anything we could hope for. Too bad there's no alternative. Sad.

cc: @quietthinker @stunnedbygrace @jeff saunders @Chadrho

Steven, are you angry with God that He has declared judgement on man, and you disagree with that judgement?

 

[Chadrho]

That sounds a lot like Bibliolatry to me

It brings to mind something Jesus said:
"You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that testify on my behalf. Yet you refuse to come to me to have life. I do not accept glory from human beings. But I know that you do not have the love of God in you." John 5:39-42

It's such a simple step to move from having our faith in the scriptures to having our faith in the risen Lord, but without that step, there is a chasm that makes all the difference.

Like you, I believe, as many ancient Christians did, in the universal restoration of all things (Acts 3:21). I believe God will be all in all, that not only does God will that none should perish but that God is able to bring all willingly to their knees to confess Christ is Lord. Unfortunately, the institutional church with the blessing and power of empire decided that conscious eternal torment would be the only acceptable doctrine.

I understand why people react badly to UR. It feels like it is a threat to the gospel as they understand it. Perhaps with a lot of love and patience, they can see a better hope. It took me a while to come around. :)

 

[Charlie24]

It brings to mind something Jesus said:
"You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that testify on my behalf. Yet you refuse to come to me to have life. I do not accept glory from human beings. But I know that you do not have the love of God in you." John 5:39-42

It's such a simple step to move from having our faith in the scriptures to having our faith in the risen Lord, but without that step, there is a chasm that makes all the difference.

Like you, I believe, as many ancient Christians did, in the universal restoration of all things (Acts 3:21). I believe God will be all in all, that not only does God will that none should perish but that God is able to bring all willingly to their knees to confess Christ is Lord. Unfortunately, the institutional church with the blessing and power of empire decided that conscious eternal torment would be the only acceptable doctrine.

I understand why people react badly to UR. It feels like it is a threat to the gospel as they understand it. Perhaps with a lot of love and patience, they can see a better hope. It took me a while to come around. :)

Steven likes to call us who oppose the UR, "the damnationists." He accusing us of wanting the condemned of God to be sentenced.

But that's not true! We want what God wants, and His desire is "that all men come to the knowledge of the truth."

As we see in Scripture, all men will not accept that knowledge, there is example after example of those men.

God has placed judgment on these people, and nowhere in Scripture is God seen as lifting that judgment.

We are not wishing that men go to Hell, we are keeping sound doctrine that God gave us.

I too, wish that God would lift that judgment, but we have no foundation whatsoever that He will.

The bottom line: It is wrong to claim God will do something when that something has no foundation whatsoever in His Word.