quietthinker
Well-Known Member
As you wish. .....and by the way, it's not about ignoring it, it's about understanding it.
Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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Then you have no excuse, you know as well as I, God gave His Son as the only way out of this mess mankind has created for himself. "For God so loved the world ....."
He also makes it perfectly clear, if man rejects that way out, His wrath is unquenchable.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
However, holding a contradictory idea simultaneously appears to be no problems for many.......and so God's character is misrepresented to the World. Is it any wonder they give him a wide berth?
I can't see how it's possible for man to read the Scripture and not see the Love and yet the Wrath that God has promised unbelieving man.
It can only be one thing, some have ignored, just don't believe God when He says,
2 Thes. 1:7-9
"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"
There's an easy test.
Ask them what would become of their faith if they put their whole library on the curb on trash day.
The crime is shouting from the rooftops that the Wrath of God on unbelievers is not permanent, but that man will at some point be released from this wrath and brought back into fellowship with God.
Not one single thought of this exists in the Scripture, although that doesn't stop the UR from claiming it. It's dangerous!
Why does the "Wrath of God" need to be "permanent"? Is God incapable of forgiveness? Or is that your problem? (I hope not)
Should I unload another truck full on you? Doesn't seem to do any good.
I wish it were true also, Steven. But we don't have the authority to teach something from God's Word that has no foundation.
The UR teaches this stuff as a fact, it is not a fact but wishful thinking.
St. SteVen said:
Why does the "Wrath of God" need to be "permanent"? Is God incapable of forgiveness? Or is that your problem? (I hope not)
Should I unload another truck full on you? Doesn't seem to do any good.
Did Jesus say that if he was lifted up would draw ALL men to himself?
Does the Bible say that God is love? (and FULL of mercy)
Did Jesus not say that everyone will be salted with fire?
Will not every knee bow and every tongue confess Jesus as Lord?
(on earth, in heaven and UNDER THE EARTH - the realm of the dead)
Does God not desire that everyone be saved? (wishful thinking?)
Does not Jesus say that to love our enemies is godly behavior? (be perfect)
(does God hold himself to a lower standard than he holds us to?)
I have truckloads more. But alas, your mind is already made up.
Why bore you with the facts?
This video outlines it better than I could. And it's an unbiased presentation. (not UR)
Why does the "Wrath of God" need to be "permanent"? Is God incapable of forgiveness? Or is that your problem? (I hope not)
Should I unload another truck full on you? Doesn't seem to do any good.
Not sure how you can maintain such an opinion. I offered another truckload.
Did Jesus say that if he was lifted up would draw ALL men to himself?
Does the Bible say that God is love? (and FULL of mercy)
Did Jesus not say that everyone will be salted with fire?
Will not every knee bow and every tongue confess Jesus as Lord?
(on earth, in heaven and UNDER THE EARTH - the realm of the dead)
Does God not desire that everyone be saved? (wishful thinking?)
Does not Jesus say that to love our enemies is godly behavior? (be perfect)
(does God hold himself to a lower standard than he holds us to?)
I have truckloads more. But alas, your mind is already made up.
Why bore you with the facts?
I have always maintained that all three views of the final judgment have biblical support.
This video outlines it better than I could. And it's an unbiased presentation. (not UR)
"The draw of all men" is the hearing of the Gospel, it draws man and demands a response, some will accept some will reject.
So don't take Scripture out of context implying that God will save all men, that's just ignorance, Steven.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
yes yes, I know it says this.....but what paradigm do we use to understand what is being said?
It seems the glory of the presence of the Lord is harmless to those who he comes to get yet the same glory harms those who don't want to know him. How can this be?
Rev. 6:12-17 paints a similar picture. The wicked perceive the Lamb (who they recognise) to be wrathful (whoever has known a lamb to be wrathful?)
What I'm saying is, mens perception of what God is and how he behaves ie, what God actually is are poles apart. The wicked are so fearful they want suicide......Now, who is it that kills them? Jesus or their own choice to die?
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
We assume God's wrath to be a certain way, a way which reflects our own hateful inclinations. Romans 1:18-32 defines God's wrath in a way we least expect....it says 'he gave them over'....yes, read it again, 'he gave them over' .....in other words, he left them to the choices they loved.....and these choices destroyed them.
It's a bit like Judas.....God didn't kill Judas, Judas killed himself as a result of his choices.
That's not what it says. You are adding to what it plainly says with your doctrine?
When will Jesus draw all people to himself? (when he is lifted up)
John 12:32 NIV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
Like these?
Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
Man must learn that the Holy Bible is God's written Word. It doesn't matter what man thinks, what matters is what God said in His Word.
Man dooms himself, God doesn't do it. God has plainly provided a way of hope for man, a way that man has hope and joy even if his world is falling apart around him. It's the Blessed Hope in Jesus Christ.
So how can God be such a lover of man, wishing the best for him, and at the same time warn of His terrible wrath" Because He created you, and you will answer to Him for the things done in this body and life.
If man chooses his own way and rejects the demands of God, that is exactly what God will give you! But at the same time He lets us know that it doesn't have to be that way.
I don't know where you guys come from! But I do know that you all completely ignore the Word of God for an agenda!
In Matt. 7:13-14 Jesus plainly tells us that the majority of mankind is not going to make it to heaven.
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
7:19
"Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."
That saw cuts both ways. Couldn't I say the same thing about Damnationists?
Jesus plainly says? Where? Not here. Says NOTHING about the afterlife.
What was it you said above? "... you all completely ignore the Word of God for an agenda!"
Furthermore, if this is about the afterlife, it is making a HORRIBLE declaration.
That salvation is dependent an a game of hide-and-seek with eternal consequences. (few there be that find it?)
Salvation by works? Is that what you believe?
Come on, Charlie. Seriously.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Is God demanding as you assume? Does God give a gift and then require reciprocation and if one doesn't reciprocate he kills you?....that's hardly a gift!
This view, which is held by the majority of the Christian Church at large I would suggest is Satan painting God with his own characteristics and many who claim to be on God's side have taken the bait wholesale.
Propagating this view misrepresents God and gives his creatures every reason to be apprehensive of him. It is in direct conflict with the picture of a self sacrificing Creator who condescends so that those same creatures can actually see what he is like.....what is at his core.
That's a GREAT point.
(parody time - see below)
Man #1: I have a free gift for you.
Man #2: Sorry, I'm not interested.
Man #1: Not interested? I said it was free!
Man #2: I'm pretty sure there are some strings attached.
Man #1: Well, of course. But it's FREE!
Man #2: Not really, if there are strings attached.
Man #1: This is my final offer. Better take it now, or else!
Man #2: Uh... or else what?
Man #1: You will be incinerated forever!
Man #2: Seriously? What kind of free gift is that?
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