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[Kermos]

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Word of God's Audience at the Supper Recorded by the Apostle John in chapters 13 to 17


Nine entirely scripturally separate avenues exist to arrive at the audience being all believers in all time for the supper in John chapters 13 to 17 are enumerated below.

1. When Lord Jesus speaks of His blessed gifts to His disciples, then His use of "you" means that He says "you" to all His disciples in all time.
2. Both Matthias as well as Joseph were present when Lord Jesus declares that God chooses people not people choosing God occur in the self-same supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.
3. Jesus, Himself, shares that more than the 12 Apostles were at the supper described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.
4. Both the promise of the Holy Spirit and the declaration by Lord Jesus that God chooses people not people choosing God occur in the self-same supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.
5. Both the prayer of Lord Jesus that incorporates all believers in all time and the declaration by Lord Jesus that God chooses people not people choosing God occur in the self-same supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.
6. Jesus employed many open sentences during the supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.
7. Near the conclusion of the Gospel of John, the Apostle John's own writing, He wrote "these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31) which applies to the supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.
8. Jesus Christ's constrained and unconstrained of the word "you".
9. Communion, the share of Christ by Christ and through Christ, given to His own people.
10. Just prior to the ascension of our Lord Jesus Christ, He commanded us to go and teach and proclaim which applies to the supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

Continued

 

[Kermos]

WHAT LORD JESUS SAID TO HIS APOSTLES HE SAYS TO ALL HIS DISCIPLES​

Lord Jesus exposits to His disciples about the destruction of the wicked as well as the Lord's salvation of the Lord's chosen persons (Mark 13:3-37). During this exposition, He says something powerful with "What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37). Lord Jesus explains His deliverance of His own (John 10:27-30) which is a blessed gift of God!

When at various times the Lord Jesus reveals His gifts to His disciples, then He is speaking to all His disciples in all time for He says "What I say to you I say to all, be on the alert!" (Mark 13:37).

Clearly, Lord Jesus is commanding something along the lines that His disciples not be slack about abiding His words; allthemore, His words says it best and most clearly with "What I say to you I say to all. Stay awake!" (Mark 13:37).

Let's look at this wonderful saying of Jesus Christ's some more:

• Word Meaning
  

  The English words "be on the alert" translate from the Greek word γρηγορεῖτε meaning literally "stay awake" with a figurative meaning of be vigilant, responsible, and watchful according to Helps Word Studies on Strong's Greek 1127 γρηγορεύω (grégoreó) to be awake, to watch).
  This means that Lord Jesus' words can be translated as "What I say to you I say to all. Stay awake!" or "What I say to you I say to all: watch.".
  This means that the Apostle Paul's words of "knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed" (Romans 13:11. Let us hear the Master declare that it is the work of God that we believers believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).
  Paul referred to the relationship between salvation and "stay awake".
  Both "salvation" and "saved" are the same thing.
  So, in a way, Paul related back to Jesus' words in Mark 13:37.

• The Tribulation Event And God's Choice
  

  In the Mark passage where Jesus says "What I say to you I say to all, stay awake" (Mark 13:37), He speaks of the tribulation.
  Speaking of the tribulation, Jesus says "Unless the Lord had shortened [those] days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days" (Mark 13:20).
  The noun "elect" is a synonym for the noun "chosen", so Jesus unmistakably talks of people being chosen by God for salvation away from the wrath of God with these words of His!

• All Things Are Spiritual. Spiritual Impacts Physical
  

  Jesus often says things like "He who has ears to hear, let him hear" (Mark 4:9). The account of Jesus powerfully opening the ears of the deaf:
  

  32 They brought to Him one who was deaf and spoke with difficulty, and they implored Him to lay His hand on him.
  33 Jesus took him aside from the crowd, by himself, and put His fingers into his ears, and after spitting, He touched his tongue [with the saliva];
  34 and looking up to heaven with a deep sigh, He said to him, "Ephphatha!" that is, "Be opened!"
  35 And his ears were opened, and the impediment of his tongue was removed, and he [began] speaking plainly.
  (Mark 7:32-35, see also Luke 8:8)

  Jesus illustrates the Spiritual opening of the ears by way of opening the ears physically.
  So, the person who Jesus opens the ear to hear will hear Him command "be on the alert", "stay awake", and "watch" (Mark 13:37).
  Even deeper, a person must be alive in Christ to hear Christ Jesus. The dead of the world must be made alive in Christ in order to be in Christ (Romans 6:11), and when a person is alive in Christ such a person hears Christ by Christ's power. The acount of Jesus' impact on the dead man and his widowed mother in the city called Nain is as follows:
  

  11 Soon afterwards He went to a city called Nain; and His disciples were going along with Him, accompanied by a large crowd.
  12 Now as He approached the gate of the city, a dead man was being carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow; and a sizeable crowd from the city was with her.
  13 When the Lord saw her, He felt compassion for her, and said to her, "Do not weep."
  14 And He came up and touched the coffin; and the bearers came to a halt. And He said, "Young man, I say to you, arise!"
  15 The dead man sat up and began to speak. And [Jesus] gave him back to his mother.
  (Luke 7:11-15)

  The Apostle Paul wrote:
  

  1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
  2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
  3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
  4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
  5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
  6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,
  7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
  8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God;
  9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
  10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
  (Ephesians 2:1-10)

  When Paul wrote that it is God that makes us alive in Christ Jesus ("made us alive together with Christ" and "seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus"), then Paul defered back to Jesus Christ (such as Luke 7:11-15).
  When Paul wrote of faith (a synonym of belief) "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast", then Paul defered back to Jesus Christ (John 6:29).

Continued

 

[Kermos]

• God the Grantor And God the Concealer And God the Revealer
  

  To His disciples, Jesus says "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest [it is] in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND" (Luke 8:10 - note the relationship to Luke 8:8 mentioned above).
  God is the Grantor for Jesus' disciples to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God.
  Greatly rejoicing in the Holy Spirit, Lord Jesus says "I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from [the] wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight" (Luke 10:21).
  God hides things from some people, yet God reveals things to other people. The hiding and revealing exposes the reality of God's choice (elect persons, chosen persons). God concealing and revealing is well-pleasing to God!

• Jesus' Use Of "You" When Speaking Of Spiritual Gifts And Rewards To His Followers

• The bottom line is that when Lord Jesus speaks of His blessed gifts, then His use of "you" to His disciples means that He says "you" to all His disciples in all time:
  

  • for the Word of God says "What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37)!
  • for the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16.
    • God says that God is not chosen by man.
    • God says God chooses man.
    • Chosen by God for inclusion as branches of the Vine (John 15:1-8).
    • Chosen by God as friends of Friend Jesus (John 15:9-15).
    • Chosen by God for appointment unto the blessed works of God (John 15:16, John 3:21, John 15:5).
    • Chosen by God for faith/belief (John 6:29, John 15:5).
  • for the Word of God says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19)! He saves ("chose") from the wrath of God ("out of the world"). Chosen by God for salvation!

• All of this is in the Righteous Love that baffles human understanding (John 16:7-14, John 17:22-26).

Continued

 

[Kermos]

• BACKGROUD AND EVENTS AROUND THE SUPPER​

  EXHIBIT 1:
  Luke discloses that there were more than twelve disciples at the time that Jesus named as apostles.
  
  "And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles:" (Luke 6:13)
  EXHIBIT 2:
  This passage establishes Jesus' "disciples" present from the beginning of the supper for John chapters 13-17, this says "disciples" not "apostles":
  
  "Then He poured water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded." (John 13:5)
  EXHIBIT 3:
  There is record of a single person leaving the supper prior to the supper's conclusion, and that person is Judas Iscariot in the John 13:21-30 passage.
  EXHIBIT 4:
  Jesus says "but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let us go from here" (John 14:31).
  
  After that, Jesus with the disciples may have been in the room where they had supper during the words of Jesus recorded in chapters 15 to 17 OR preparing to leave the room OR departing the room OR outside the room OR some combination of these - the Apostle John did not record that specifically. The way that John presents Jesus' discourse is that Jesus continued one way or the other at that time. John's manner presented Jesus' discourse as one contiguous discourse; in other words, the way that John presents Jesus' discourse is that Jesus continued one way or the other at that time. EXHIBIT 5 bears the appearance that they remained in the room.
  EXHIBIT 5:
  At the supper's conclusion, the next indication of movement of Jesus and the disciples is when Jesus and His disciples went forth over the ravine of the Kidron.
  
  "When Jesus had spoken these words, He went forth with His disciples over the ravine of the Kidron, where there was a garden, in which He entered with His disciples." (John 18:1)

Continued

 

[Kermos]

• EXPOSITION OF THE EXHIBITS​

  The chronology of these events is very important and crucial. The exhibits are provided in chronological order.
  After EXHIBIT 3 (Judas departed) and before EXHIBIT 5 (supper concludes) the promises of the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17, John 14:26, John 15:26-27, John 16:7-14) and Jesus declaring God exclusively chooses men not men choosing God (John 15:16, John 15:19) occurs.
  Lord Jesus said "you" in John 14:16-17 (as well as every one of the listed references to the promise of the Holy Spirit) and He said "you" in John 15:16 as recorded by the Apostle John.
  The word "you" that Jesus uses throughout the supper is powerfully important!
  
  

  A BENEFICIAL NOTE ABOUT EXHIBIT 5​

  Lord Jesus said "Get up, let us go from here" (John 14:31) during the supper recorded in John chapters 13-17, the very next verse continues the discourse unabated with "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser" (John 15:1).
  There is no indication of movement of Jesus and the disciples until "When Jesus had spoken these words, He went forth with His disciples" (John 18:1) which is after John chapters 13-17.
  It could be asserted that John chapters 13-14 are the supper proper discourse while this discourse flowed into after supper discourse recorded in John chapters 15-17, yet John chapters 15-17 cannot be disassociated from the supper room because John did not record movement until John 18:1.
  It could be asserted that John chapters 13-17 are the supper proper which includes Jesus concluding the supper with John chapters 15-17.
  The supper activities include the discourse of John chapters 13-17.

Continued

 

[Kermos]

• DISCIPLES IN THE SUPPER ROOM WITH JESUS​

  The disciples specifically identified Matthias and Joseph as two men who "accompanied us all the time" - see that it is all the time they were with Jesus as described here:
  "'Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias." (Acts 1:21-23)
  In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".
  Joanna, Susanna, Salome, Mary, and Cleopas and his traveling companion to Emmaus - every one of these individuals are mentioned in close temporal proximity to the time of supper in John chapters 13-17. These names of disciples are close enough in time to potentially be included as the "disciples" mentioned by John in EXHIBIT 1 and EXHIBIT 5.
  Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the twelve who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17.
  
  

  LORD JESUS' INDICATES DISCIPLES IN THE SUPPER ROOM OF A NUMBER GREATER THAN 12​

  Lord Jesus says "It is one of the twelve, one who dips with Me in the bowl" (Mark 14:19) about the apostle who betrayed Him.
  The Master Orator cleverly exposes that the audience for the supper exceeds the 12 apostles by explicitly stating "the twelve" instead of "you".
  Master Jesus used the phrase "the twelve" to distinguish that the betrayer was in the group of disciples called apostles which, by such way of expression by Jesus, the rest of the disciples present in the supper room would know that they are not the betrayer that Jesus was identifying.
  Lord Jesus expressed that more than 12 disciples attended the supper when He exposed that the betrayer was not only from the set of all disciples but even more narrowly that the betrayer was numbered from among "the twelve" - the 12 disciples He called apostles.
  
  

  LORD JESUS' PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND FULFILLING​

  In John chapter 14, John chapter 15, and John chapter 16 Jesus explicitly promises the Holy Spirit. For example, He said "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17).
  When the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples of Jesus at Pentecost, there were about 120 persons present according to the next two sets of passages:
  "Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away. When they had entered the city, they went up to the upper room where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers. At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together), and said" (Acts 1:12-15)
  
  "When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance." (Acts 2:1-4)
  One hundred twenty people is more than eleven Apostles; therefore, the Lord Jesus was talking to all His disciples of all time when Jesus said "you" with reference to the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17) and He said "you" with reference to God's exclusive ability to choose men and men's inability to choose God (John 15:16) as recorded by the Apostle John.

Continued

 

[Kermos]

• CRUCIAL POINT: The Holy Spirit, The Apostle Peter, The Gentiles Cornelius And All His Household, And Lord Jesus Saying "You"​

  Cornelius is of crucial import to this topic for among the places that we find fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is when Gentiles at Cornelius' place were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44).
  At a time after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter recounted to the apostles and brethren about the Gentiles Cornelius with his relatives and his close friends, and the account Peter shared of the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit with being saved illuminated that not just Jews would be saved but also Gentiles would be saved (Acts 11:1-18).
  At that time, Peter said to the apostles and brethren "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 11:16).
  Prior to the time of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Lord Jesus said "John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5) to the apostles whom Jesus gathered togather (Acts 1:4) which included Peter, and Jesus says "you" right here - with the apostles present right there, Jesus says "you".
  Later after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter remembered Lord Jesus saying "you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" and there is the word "you" (Acts 11:16) which Peter tied to the Gentiles Cornelius with all his household (Acts 11:14); furthermore, Peter tied when Lord Jesus says "you" to all believers in all time (Acts 11:17)!
  Thus, the fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is more than the 11 Apostles, and includes not just the Jews but also the Gentiles because of Cornelius, and our Lord Jesus saying "you" to the disciples includes all disciples in all time.
  
  

  THE SUPPER IN JOHN CHAPTERS 13 TO 17​

  Both the promise of the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17, John 14:26, John 15:26-27, John 16:7-14) as well as God's exclusive role in choosing man (John 15:16) occur in the self-same supper recorded in John chapters 13 - 17.
  Peter [said] to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." (Acts 2:38-39, see also Repentance Properly Defined)
  
  

  LORD JESUS' PRAYER FOR US BELIEVERS​

  Part of the prayer of Lord Jesus during the supper is thus "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20).
  Jesus said "through their word" (John 17:20) which means that "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) are words that the Apostle John recorded. John recorded the Word of God, and the Word of God says "for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20), and He preceded these words with "I do not ask on behalf of these alone" (John 17:20), so the Word of God during the supper is not just for the people in the room, but the Word of God during the supper is for all believers in all time.
  In another part of the prayer, Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), says "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours" (John 17:9).
  Jesus said "I do not ask on behalf of the world" (John 17:9), so Jesus uses "the world" to mean different things. Such a difference exists in His use of "the world" in (John 17:9) compared to His use of "the world" in (John 3:16).
  Thus, belief in Jesus through the Apostle John's words includes the Lord Jesus' words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 which are all part of the "through" John's "word" (John 17:20) which Jesus referred to in His prayer.

Continued

 

[Kermos]

• JOHN'S WRITINGS FOR US BELIEVERS​

  The Apostle John wrote "these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31).
  Among the writings of John includes the statements of Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19). These sayings of Jesus Christ, Lord and God (John 20:28), are part and parcel of the exclusive attribute of Jesus with respect to choice in the salvation of all His sheep in all time.
  John's writings are for us believers to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing we have life in His Name; therefore, belief in Jesus about whom John wrote includes the exclusive centrality of choice reserved to Jesus by Jesus through Jesus in the salvation of all His sheep in all time.
  
  

  CONSTRAINED "YOU" VERSUS UNCONSTRAINED "YOU"​

  Jesus employs the constrained form of "you" in the question "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?" (John 6:70).
  In John 6:70, "the twelve" constrains the audience for the first occurrence of the word "you".
  Nowhere during the supper recorded in John chapters 13 to 17 does Jesus constrain the word "you" with something like "the twelve" similar to when Jesus was not at the supper saying "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?" (John 6:70); therefore, Jesus uses the unconstrained form of "you" during the supper recorded in John chapters 13 to 17.
  Since Judas had departed (John 13:21-30) from the supper by the time Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation), then Jesus uses the unconstrained "you" to include all Christ's disciples in all time.
  As with "you" and "the twelve", Jesus didn't say "the eleven" during the supper.
  The Master Orator Jesus Christ utilizes the unconstrained form of the word "you" during the supper recorded in John chapters 13 to 17 thus He includes all His disciples in all time because of His use of the word "you" with His sayings of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).
  
  

  COMMUNION, THE SHARE OF CHRIST BY CHRIST AND THROUGH CHRIST, THE BLESSED GIFT PROVIDED TO HIS OWN PEOPLE​

  Written of Jesus Christ is "And when He had taken [some] bread [and] given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, 'This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me'" (Luke 22:19).
  This event where Lord Jesus says "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me" (Luke 22:19) is during the self-same supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17
  Jesus says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves" (John 6:53). Thus, Life requires eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Lord Jesus Christ. We know that the Corinthians did this after Jesus' ascension because the Apostle Paul wrote to the assembly at Corinth about the communion in eating Christ's flesh and drinking Christ's blood (1 Corinthians 11:23-34).
  All of these "you" occurrences derive from the same supper:
  • The "you" in Luke 22:19 refers to all believers in all time.
  • The "you" in John 6:53 refers to all believers in all time.
  • The "you" in John John 15:16 refers to all believers in all time.
  • The "you" in John John 15:19 refers to all believers in all time.
• Communion in Christ, completely of Christ by Christ and through Christ, is for the chosen of God!

Continued

 

[Kermos]

JESUS COMMANDS US BELIEVERS TO GO AND TEACH AND PROCLAIM​

• The Apostle Matthew recorded the command of Jesus Christ, the Word of God (John 1:14), for all His sheep (John 10:27-30) with His words of "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, immersing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:19-20) and Mark recorded "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to all creation" (Mark 16:15). This teaching, this proclamation includes the exclusive role of God choosing man not man choosing God (John 15:16, John 15:19) for these words are a statement of the sovereignty of God according to Jesus Christ, Lord and God (John 20:28).
  One of the teachings, one of the commands of Jesus is for we sheep of His to be entirely dependent on Jesus alone for salvation! We are to go and teach and proclaim this Truth (John 14:6).
  Since Jesus says "lo, I am with you always" (Matthew 28:20) in conjunction with His words of "go" (Matthew 28:19) and "proclaim" (Mark 16:15) and "immersing" (Matthew 28:19 - "baptizing") and "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth" (Matthew 28:18), then Jesus is the authoritatively sovereign One Who causes we believers to be at locations where He causes wickedly dead persons to live (John 3:3-8) and repent (Matthew 11:25) and believe in Him (John 6:29) thus causing persons to be saved from the wrath of God (John 10:27-29); furthermore, mere man causes NONE of it (John 15:16, Philippians 2:13).
  
  

  THE WORD OF GOD IS TRUE​

  Based on the above stated facts, as an independent first aveneue revealing that when Lord jesus says "you" to His disciples about God's gracious gifts to the Lord's own, then we see that Lord Jesus makes it abundantly clear that His use of "you" means all believers in all time for He says "What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37), so the Word of God, Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) is binding upon all believers in all time.
  Behold as an independent second aveneue, the Apostles were not the only disciples in the supper room, so the Word of God, Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) is binding upon all believers in all time.
  Delving into another proof as an independent third aveneue, evidence exists that Jesus indicates that disciples beyond the 12 were in the supper room, so Jesus chooses His followers not His followers choosing Him (John 15:16).
  As an independent fourth aveneue, just as the promise of the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17) is binding upon all believers in all time also binding are the Word of God, Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) (and see the CRUCIAL POINT above).
  Furthermore, as an independent fifth aveneue, since Lord Jesus said "through their word" (John 17:20) with "their word" including John's messages a.k.a. the Book of John a.k.a. the Good Message of John a.k.a. the Gospel of John a.k.a. the supper recorded in John chapters thirteen to seventeen a.k.a. the word of John, this also makes "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) binding on all believers in all time.
  As an independent sixth aveneue, Jesus employed an open sentence when He spoke the words "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) resulting in the inclusion of all believers in all time being subject to His sovereign control of man's salvation. He did not use a closed sentence such as "you apostles" rather He used an open sentence with "you".
  Moreover, John's writings as an independent seventh aveneue express Jesus' inherent quality of choice reserved to Jesus alone in Jesus by Jesus through Jesus in the salvation of all His sheep in all time (John 4:6-42 [Living Water], John 6:35-40 [Bread of Life], John 7:37-39 [Living Water], John 15:13-19 [die for friends and God chooses exclusively], John 6:29 [God defines faith/belief in we believers as the work of God], John 3:21 [God wrings fruit in we believers], John 3:3-8 [God births we believers], John 6:44 [God draws the people of God and we people of God come to God], John 12:32 [God draws the people of God], John 20:28 [Jesus is God]).
  Behold as an independent eighth aveneue that Jesus Christ used the unconstrained form of the word "you" throughout the supper recorded in John chapters 13 to 17, including John 15:16 and John 15:19, as opposed to the constrained form of the word "you" that He associated with "the twelve" in John 6:70, so the "you" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 include all His disciples in all time.
  Even as an independent nineth aveneue, Jesus clearly illustrates that He says "you" for the recipients of His blessed Gifts which He delivers to His own people (John 10:27-30). He illustrates this during the supper recorded in John chapters 13 to 17 and Luke chapter 22; therefore, His words of "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me" (Luke 22:19) and His words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and His words of "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) include all His chosen persons regardless of when such persons are born.
  Additionally, Lord Jesus' command for we believers to go and teach and proclaim as an independent tenth aveneue includes revealing the salvation of the Lord is of and by and through the Lord Jesus Christ exclusively (John 15:13-19, Matthew 19:25-26, and Exodus 14:13-18 as instruction from the Old Testament).
  The food about eternal life at the supper are for all Jesus Christ's disciples in all time. His body the bread. His blood the wine. His words eternal life.

 

[Gilligan]

We are talking about accurate translation from a known and understood language (Hebrew - vastly the original written language of the Old Testament - in this case, but the concept applies equally to Greek - vastly the original written language of the New Testament) into another known and understood language (English in this case).

There is no such thing as purely objective translating of the Bible. All translation are made with certain doctrine in mind, and so are translated accordingly. It does not make all translations wrong, but just with doctrine in mind. You do to translation supporting your doctrine, I go to mine, JWs go to there's, as well as Mormons.

The Bible does not in any way say, in the day ye shall surely eat thereof...

Let us step aside for a moment and consider a hypothetical meal recipe for a scrumptious dish according to people near the Aegean Sea, but the plate was developed in antiquity. Say that the dish first appeared around 15 BC.

The first ingredient for the delicacy is:

κυνάριον γλῶσσα

in Greek, the language for this particular cookbook.

Now, let's further postulate a contemporary local church music leader is a connoisseur of culinary delights with an interest in ancient cuisine.

The leader recently discovered the recipe, and his chef has prepared it twice for him.

That first ingredient accurately translates to English as "dog tongue"

• κυνάριον = dog = biblehub.com/greek/2952.htm
• γλῶσσα = tongue = https://biblehub.com/greek/1100.htm

But his chef inexplicably translated the first ingredient as "dog dung".

Then, along comes another multilingual chef, and she says to him "your chef mistranslated the recipe, and you are eating dog dung instead of dog tongue. That could lead to some debilitating disease for you even leading to an agonizing death, and I shudder to think of the crushing injury that you and your chef, in whom your heart trusts so deeply - even your family's well-being, the poison that you two are feeding your baby girl and toddler boy whom you hold in your arms to spoon feed that dish. You need to stop using that false recipe and start using the true recipe, which is safe for human consumption! Here's a copy of the recipe that I accurately translated with bibliography, my friend."

That concludes the example.

Which has nothing to do with the Bible, over which God ensures accurate writing, and not a recipe left up to man to write on his own.

God's written word is not a recipe of written by men according to their own power. Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Peter 1)

Before returning to Genesis 2:16-17, let's take a look at where those two Greek words are used in the New Testament.

"The tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell" (James 3:6).

"Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table" (Matthew 15:27).

Relatedly, "I am the Bread of Life" (John 6:48) says the Christ of us Christians.

It is the Bread of Life, the Word of God, Lord Jesus Christ, in whom we Christians have the pure, non-GMO, unadulterated, true eternal sustenance! And this fact includes the Word of God recorded in Genesis 2:16-17.

@Johann, the parable above appears not in the current essays, but I intend to add it to the Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor essay. We corresponded about this type of thing previously, but this is a specific incident.

Now, back to Genesis 2:16-17.

As post 1,485 to which you replied shows with detailed linguistic references, here's a popular representation from the English Bible translations of Genesis 2:16-17:

​

The Lord God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may freely eat; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."​

​

In reality, the word "freely" does not appear in the Hebrew of the Genesis 2:16-17 passage. The Hebrew source word for "freely" is truly "to eat" in English for Genesis 2:16.

So, based upon the true linguistics of Genesis 2:16-17, the Word of God reveals in Truth (John 14:6):

​

and commanded YHWH God to the man, saying "Of every tree in the garden to eat you will be eating, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not eating from, when in the day you are to eat of it to die you will be dying"​

​

Your translator(s) mistranslated the passage, and you are eating the precepts of men (Matthew 15:9) instead of ingesting the Word of God that we Christians eat (John 6:47-65. That leads to eternal punishment (Matthew 25:45-46), and I shudder to think of the crushing injury that you and your translator(s), in whom your heart trusts so very deeply, are feeding those around you. You need to stop using that faulty translation of the Genesis 2:16-17 passage, and start using the true translation of the Genesis 2:16-17 passage, which together with other passages shows who God is (Sovereign Ruler) and shows who man is (entirely dependent upon God for salvation)! Here's a copy of the Genesis 2:16-17 passage that is accurately translated with bibliographical references.

Not to be neglected, "freely" means "abundantly" or "without cost" in the context of the Genesis 2:16-17 passage, not impartation of free-will ability as God did not say said "freely choose" (the translator(s) didn't even represent the passage with "freely choose" neither), but in Truth (John 14:6), "freely" conveys "abundantly" or "without cost". I am not endorsing the use of the word "freely" in the place where "to eat" is the accurate translation for the Hebrew word אכל (Strong's 398 - eat) in Genesis 2:16, but, rather, God has me righting a wrong.

When you wrote that "freely" conveys "free-will choosing by man", then your heart adulterates the passage into "The Lord God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may freely choose to eat; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die" (the word of Gilligan).

In effect, God said "You are not to eat of it, but you will eat of it to die" (notice this corrects your erroneous second from last paragraph). See, the first clause is command, and the second clause is both prophecy and punishment pronunciation. Adam could not overcome his flesh on his own. This fits snuggly into God's Good Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13).

Do not be deceived, God said "Of every tree in the garden to eat you will be eating, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not eating from, when in the day you are to eat of it to die you will be dying" (Genesis 2:16-17).

Unlike the food serving example above, God's Word causes the new birth - a new eternal Life in Christ that the creature is separated from the former everlasting death as far as the east is from the west!

Praise God for mercifully and unilaterally saving us miserable wretches from the wrath of God, by God's grace for God's glory! Praise Lord Jesus!

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

Already been over this.

All animals are given will by God to keep His natural law of being fruitful and multiply. Only man is given free will in the image of God, to choose to do good of God or evil of the devil. Animals are given spirit and will to live, but only people are given hearts of the inner man to make such decisions.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

All translation are made with certain doctrine in mind, and so are translated accordingly.

And there is a translation done to be faithful to word of God.

You just need spiritual discernment to recognize it…

 

[Gilligan]

"Love is patient" (the Apostle Paul, 1 Corinthians 13:4).

"the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience" (the Apostle Paul, Galatians 5:22).

"I lose any patience" (the word of Gilligan).

Gilligan, you avoid to patiently discuss the Word of God on topic of the original post.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

Ok, I patiently don't talk to deaf walls. That's not a discussion I love.

 

[Gilligan]

And there is a translation done to be faithful to word of God.

You just need spiritual discernment to recognize it…

No, we just need enough knowledge of the word to know when a translation contradicts itself in order to teach a false doctrine. Not many do that, but some do. The new world translation of JW's contradicts itself in order to say that the Word was a god, while also properly translating there is no god with God. The NIV contradicts itself in order to teach OSAS, while properly translating those doing sin are of the devil. This is what happens when certain translators are faithful to the original text in some places and not in others. It's simply not possible to translate the Bible without also translating doctrine, because all the Bible is doctrine. Even genealogies become a doctrinal teaching point in the Bible.

Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. (1 Tim 1)

Spiritual discernment is of what is written without men changing it for a false teaching. Simple knowledge is knowing what is translated is done for false teaching purposes, because it does not fit with the rest of the Bible. Once we have hidden the word in our hearts and read the Bible enough times, we immediately and instinctively know something is off when wrongly taught as the truth of God. It's just a matter of going to certain other verses to show it.

Every teaching is proven false by one or two verses of the Bible that contradict it. There are a couple of verses that prove God predetermining by creation who wins and who doesn't, is false. The false teachers must then go on to twist those plain verses into something else. A normal tactic is to pretend the translation isn't accurate, and so translates those verses differently to fit their false teaching. That's when I reject their translation and keep the one I already have. I don't play word games from original languages, when it comes to doctrine of God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The NIV contradicts itself in order to teach OSAS, while properly translating those doing sin are of the devil.

The NIV is a very works based oriented bible,. it really pushes the water baptism issue as salvic

 

[Kermos]

You've conceded the argument by not addressing the point. The truth is that we do not choose Jesus to be the Christ of God, nor do we choose Him to be our personal Christ and God. Instead of addressing this point, you accuse me of doing what I show Jesus is rebuking.

I don't talk to blank walls. The Jews can wail at their dumb wall. I don't.

The point is that you self-identified yourself as a self-willed person in your very first sentence in the following post:

Exactly. Self-will is from the freedom to choose who will we will serve.

All Scripture points to man's freedom of will to choose. You say we have no such freedom, as opposed to animals, because you want to hear God say the words, "I give you free will to choose." God does not bow down to the demands of unbelievers.

You need to make no mistake about this, self-will is damnation. Self-will is not the same thing as free-will.

Let's look at scripture abour free-will, self-will, and bond-will, each in turn in the following paragraphs.

The Apostle Paul refers to free will as illusory, as an illusion, when he wrote "but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14), and there is the Bible's single reference to free-will that I have found.

The Apostle Peter refers to self will as concrete fact, that self-willed persons are unbelievers when he wrote "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10), so self-willed people revile the Majesty of King Jesus in their "I chose Jesus" in spite of the King saying:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15 , the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The Apostle Paul refers to bond will in every Christian, that a Christian's will is lovingky bound to God by God for God, when he wrote "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13), so we Christians have wills that are bound and controlled by the Power of God - by God's grace for God's glory (Ephesians 2:8-10).

YOU CLASSIFIED YOURSELF AS A SELF-WILLED PERSON IN YOUR POST QUOTED ABOVE.

You were absolutely correct when you wrote "God does not bow down to the demands of unbelievers" because self-willed unbelievers issue reviling demands like "I chose Jesus and now Jesus must save me".

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Kermos]

Who knows???

Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope


Not willingly.... Just crazy to even think about.... LOL

God knows. Paul knows. I know. All Christians know. God says who God is, and God says who man is.

I have a couple of questions for you, but after this.

Man's "Will" In Scripture Related To The Creation Account​

Despite the Creation account in Genesis 1-3 being silent about man's "will", there exists Apostolic teaching on the matter of man's "will" with regard to the creation account.

Adam did not exercise willpower to disobey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:16-17) for Paul wrote "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, NASB); therefore, Adam did not make a choice, not a willing choice, to eat.

A "choice" by Adam is explicitly excluded by using scripture with scripture referencing, in fact, "the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, KJV), so Adam acted not willingly but rather acted subject to vanity in his eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

"Not willingly" indicates "not choice".

Some people may claim that Paul was referring to a timeframe exclusively after what they call "the fall" (after Adam ate of the tree [Genesis 3:6]), but the continuity of the passage of Romans 8:20-22 must be taken as a whole.

Paul left no room for disputing to the timeframe for which "not willingly" applies, for Paul also wrote "we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now" (Romans 8:22), and the phrase "until now" is the timeframe's most recent limiting factor which memes that all times prior to "now" are included, so "the whole creation" includes the moment after God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life (Genesis 2:7) until Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6); therefore, we can be certain that Paul includes the timeframe that Adam ate of the tree in the travailing/groaning because Paul wrote of all of this in the same passage, i.e. Romans 8:20-22.

Presenting an event driven review of Paul's writing "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now" (Romans 8:20-22) and the creation account and more recorded in Genesis:

• See "until now" (Romans 8:22) indicates all time prior to the Apostle Paul for he wrote "the whole creation" (Romans 8:22), as in "the whole creation" "until now".
• See the serpent was in the garden tempting Eve (Genesis 3:1-5) before Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6).
• See "subjected to futility" (Romans 8:20) as the serpent's futility of lying to Eve with "You surely will not die" (Genesis 3:4) - before Adam or Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6), yet Adam and Eve died (Genesis 5:5, Genesis 7:21 none of mankind, besides the 8 [Genesis 7:7 and 1 Peter 3:20], survived the flood, so Eve had to be dead).
• See "not willingly" (Romans 8:20) applies to Adam eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6) for the Word of God specifically attributed the cause of Adam eating of the tree as "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17), so here God reveals for Adam the cause (listen to wife) and the effect (eat of tree); therefore, eating of the tree was "not willingly" (Romans 8:20).

Paul includes the "not willingly" (Romans 8:20-22) to apply to the time that Adam ate of the tree (Genesis 3:6).

Again, to address your opening question. God knows. Paul knows. I know. All Christians know. God says who God is, and God says who man is.

Why would you write "Just crazy to even think about" about this topic?

Why would you write "lots of laughs" (LOL) about the topic?

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Kermos]

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Looks like you missed this @Kermos

the singular τό ἔργον is used collectively of an aggregate of actions (German dasHandeln), Jas_1:4; τίνος, the genitive of person and subjunctive, his whole way of feeling and acting, his aims and endeavors: Gal_6:4; 1Pe_1:17; Rev_22:12; τό ἔργον τοῦ νόμου, the course of action demanded by the law, Rom_2:15. With epithets: ἀγαθόν ἔργον, i. e. either a benefaction, 2Co_9:8; plural Act_9:36; or every good work springing from piety, Rom_2:7; Col_1:10; 2Th_2:17; Tit_1:16; 2Ti_2:21; 2Ti_3:17; Heb_13:21 (T WH omit ἔργον); plural Eph_2:10; or what harmonizes with the order of society, Rom_13:3; Tit_3:1; ἔργον καλόν, a good deed, noble action (see καλός, b. and c.): Mat_26:10; Mar_14:6; plural (often in Attic writings), Mat_5:16; 1Ti_5:10; 1Ti_5:25; 1Ti_6:18; Tit_2:7; Tit_3:8; Tit_3:14; Heb_10:24; 1Pe_2:12; τά ἔργα τά ἐν δικαιοσύνη equivalent to τά δίκαια, Tit_3:5; τά ἔργα τοῦ Θεοῦ, the works required and approved by God, Joh_6:28 (Jer_31:10 (); 1Es_7:9; 1Es_7:15), in the same sense ἔργα μου i. e. of Christ, Rev_2:26; ἔργον πίστεως, wrought by faith, the course of conduct which springs from faith, 1Th_1:3;
Thayer's Unabridged Lexicon

created in Christ Jesus unto good works; the work of grace is a creation, or a creature, a new creature; not a new vamp of old Adam's principles, but; an infusion of new ones, and is a work of almighty power; and such who have it wrought in them, are said to be created in Christ; because as soon as a man becomes a new creature, he is openly and visibly in Christ; and by these new principles of grace which are created in him, he is fit and ready, and in a capacity to perform good works; the new man formed in him, is formed for righteousness and true holiness; the internal principle of grace both excites unto, and qualifies for, the performance of righteous and holy actions:
Gill

Which will give you more power that the will is bound, incapable of performing good works independently and apart from being in Christ, correct?

Paul's writing in Ephesians 2:8-10 is in accord with the word of God saying "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Furthermore everything after the word "workmanship" in Ephesians 2:10, very specifically "created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them", that is God workmanshipping good works in persons.

Ephesians 2:10 is just as Paul wrote here "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

No, God has had me see this, and it is even explained in the essays.

Now, back to when you wrote:

You did not choose me does not negate the disciples’
willing decision to follow Jesus when he called them.

J.

You most certainly appear to me to be attempting to nullify the Christ's words.

Essentially, you wrote that Jesus says "you did not choose Me except when you chose to follow me, but I chose you" instead of the Lord's actual words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16).

Friend, every occurrence of Christian obedience to any and every command of God is a fruit of the Spirit, that is, an act of God in the Christian for the Word of God says "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing " (John 15:5) and Christ reveals even deeper that a person initially coming to Christ as wrought in God with "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God " (John 3:21); therefore, even the fruit of following Jesus is caused by God - Christians act righteously by following Jesus joyfully by the Power of God!

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Johann]

Paul's writing in Ephesians 2:8-10 is in accord with the word of God saying "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Furthermore everything after the word "workmanship" in Ephesians 2:10, very specifically "created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them", that is God workmanshipping good works in persons.

Ephesians 2:10 is just as Paul wrote here "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

No, God has had me see this, and it is even explained in the essays.

Now, back to when you wrote:



You most certainly appear to me to be attempting to nullify the Christ's words.

Essentially, you wrote that Jesus says "you did not choose Me except when you chose to follow me, but I chose you" instead of the Lord's actual words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16).

Friend, every occurrence of Christian obedience to any and every command of God is a fruit of the Spirit, that is, an act of God in the Christian for the Word of God says "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing " (John 15:5) and Christ reveals even deeper that a person initially coming to Christ as wrought in God with "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God " (John 3:21); therefore, even the fruit of following Jesus is caused by God - Christians act righteously by following Jesus joyfully by the Power of God!

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

For every post I post, or question asked to you, it takes two weeks to get a response.
There are a lot of "different" gospels in circulation on this Forum, not necessarily saying you're wrong, but I stand by what I have posted brother.

 

[Kermos]

If adam had no free will. Then by defenition God forced him to sin

then by defenition. God could not punish Adam, because Adam did What god wanted him to do..

The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son (Ezekiel 18:20).

God can and most certainly does punish the self-willed person (2 Peter 2:9-10) that God finds guilty of insurrection against the Kingdom of God and the Anointed One Jesus Christ.

God is just.

The Bondage Of A Man's Will​

Free-willians, in a respect, are correct that "there's no difference between self will and free will", and that respect is that both self will and free will lead to hell.
Now, instead of listening to themselves lie with things like "Free will is all through the scriptures", they need to listen to Apostolic testimony as shown below.

Peter the Apostle wrote that prior to being saved, people have a self will that brings such people under damnation with the devil according to the Apostle Peter (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Paul the Apostle wrote that after being saved, people have a will that is bound under the loving control of God according to the Apostle Paul (Philippians 2:13).

Here's Paul from the Bible, again. Overall, Paul uses free will as illusory instead of concrete in Philemon 1:14 - and this is the only occurrence of "free will" that I am aware of in the New American Standard Bible New Testament.

Free-willians do not have a free will, as described by Paul.

Free-willians do have a self will, as described by Peter.

Free-willians gleefully separate themselves from God's will and the Christ of us Christians Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19). We Christians in God's Spirit have a will bound enthusiastically in joy and love to God by God for God through God, as described by Paul.

The above mentioned Apostolic testimony verbatim:

• "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).
• "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
• "but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).
  By God's grace, for God's glory!

Your writings accord not with Apostolic testimony.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Kermos]

For every post I post, or question asked to you, it takes two weeks to get a response.
There are a lot of "different" gospels in circulation on this Forum, not necessarily saying you're wrong, but I stand by what I have posted brother.

That has nothing to do with you writing:

You did not choose me does not negate the disciples’
willing decision to follow Jesus when he called them.

J.

You most certainly appear to me to be attempting to nullify the Christ's words.

Essentially, you wrote that Jesus says "you did not choose Me except when you chose to follow me, but I chose you" instead of the Lord's actual words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16).

Friend, every occurrence of Christian obedience to any and every command of God is a fruit of the Spirit, that is, an act of God in the Christian for the Word of God says "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing " (John 15:5) and Christ reveals even deeper that a person initially coming to Christ as wrought in God with "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God " (John 3:21); therefore, even the fruit of following Jesus is caused by God - Christians act righteously by following Jesus joyfully by the Power of God!

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.