Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

[Kermos]

@Enoch111 @Taken @Renniks @GISMYS_7 @Backlit @Riverwalker @BARNEY BRIGHT @TLHKAJ @HisLife @Ronald Nolette @post @Wynona @Iconoclast @CharismaticLady @MatthewG @Abaxvahl @BeyondET @RLT63 @Rightglory @Bible_Patrol @Jim B @Johann @Gilligan

1. We Christian's gracious Benefactor produces
   1. divine choice of we beneficiaries unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says
      "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19)
      AND, Paul is in accord with Jesus' words for he wrote to the Ephesians "Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love" (Ephesians 1:3-4)
      SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 state God exclusively chooses us believers by/of/through God
   2. beneficiaries' faith/belief in Lord Jesus, for the Christ of us Christians says (see also a word about belief/faith (Greek πίστις pistis) and believe (Greek πιστεύω pisteuó))
      "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29)
      AND Paul is in accord with Jesus' words for Paul wrote to the Ephesians "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work, created in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:8-10)
      AND Peter is in accord with Jesus' words for Peter declared "God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith" (Acts 15:8-9)
      SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is exclusively by/of/through God
   3. beneficiaries' fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says
      "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21)
      AND Paul is in accord with Jesus' words for he wrote to the Philippians "being filled with the fruit of righteousness that [is] by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God" (Philippians 1:11)
      SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is exclusively by/of/through God
   4. beneficiaries' birth by the Holy Spirit, for the Christ of us Christians says
      "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:5-8)
      AND Peter is in accord with Jesus' words for he wrote to persons residing as aliens "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3)
      SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 3:5-8 state we believers being born again is exclusively by/of/through God
   5. beneficiaries' repent by God's working, for the Christ of us Christians says
      "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes" (Matthew 11:25)
      AND the apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus' words with thier saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life" (Acts 11:18)
      SO, clearly, Jesus' words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward)
   6. beneficiaries' love by God's working, for the Christ of us Christians says
      "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another" (John 13:34)
      AND John is in accord with Jesus' words for he wrote "Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God" (1 John 4:7, see the phrase "love is from God" meaning God is the source of true love)
      AND John expands with his writing of "God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him" (1 John 4:16, see the phrase "one who abides in Love" is equivocated with "one who abides" "in God" which extends from God's exclusivity with "God is Love")
      SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam “not willingly” subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

“YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works” (Psalm 145:17).

THE ALL KNOWING GOD (JOHN 16:30) GETS EXCLUSIVE CREDIT AND GLORY FOR MAN’S SALVATION (JOHN 3:3-8), AND MAN DOES NOTHING - NOT EVEN A CHOICE (JOHN 15:16).

The Redemption of Mankind through the Christ is certain, even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14).

"What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do" (Isaiah 46:11).

No purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Johann]

You previously wrote to me that Quietism includes "let go, let God", and I responded to you that no mere person lets God do anything because God is in control. You are now bearing false witness against me by claiming that I am involved with a thing that you call Quietism.

Personally, @Gilligan is doing a sterling work in rebutting your essays, point by point.
And I am not bearing false witness, since I want to know where you come from, what angle, and I also noticed you deleted my questions to you in private conversation.

"But now, O YHWH, You are our Father, We are the clay, and You our potter; And all of us are the work of Your hand" (Isaiah 64:8). See the word "clay", but you use the word "robot".

Big mistake in an attempt to discredit me as inserting into the text "robot"
Gilligan have shown you plenty scriptures that we have a will/choice to make and do on a daily basis.
You have a nice day.

 

[Johann]

THE ALL KNOWING GOD (JOHN 16:30) GETS EXCLUSIVE CREDIT AND GLORY FOR MAN’S SALVATION (JOHN 3:3-8), AND MAN DOES NOTHING - NOT EVEN A CHOICE (JOHN 15:16).

Incorrect
"You did not choose Me, but I chose you" There are several key grammatical items.

both VERBS are AORIST MIDDLE INDICATIVE ‒ Jesus, Himself, once and for all chose them (cf. John 6:70; 13:18; 15:16,19)
the strong "alla" (but) ADVERSATIVE
the emphatic "ego" or "I" statement

Here is the balance between human response and election. Both are biblical teachings. God always initiates (cf. John 6:44,65; 15:16,19), but humans must respond (cf. John 1:12; 3:16; 15:4,7,9). God's dealings with mankind are always in a covenant relationship ("if. . .then").

The VERB "chosen" in this context refers to the Twelve. The term "chosen" has the connotation of "chosen for service" in the OT and only in the NT does the added concept of "chosen for salvation" come into the semantic range. NT believers are chosen for Christlikeness which is service, selflessness, and sacrifice for the Kingdom of God, the body of Christ, the corporate good. It is a clear demonstration that the self-centeredness of the Fall has been broken.

It is characteristic in John that what Jesus says regarding the Twelve has implications and applications to all believers. They represent the first fruits of discipleship, but their relationship is

unique in its eyewitness testimony (i.e., inspiration)
applicable to all believers in that Jesus' will for them is His will for all who believe and follow....

Romans 9

A. Romans 9 is one of the strongest NT passages on God's sovereignty (the other being Eph. 1:3-14), while chapter 10 states humans' free will clearly and repeatedly (cf. "everyone" Rom. 9:4; "whosoever" 9:11,13; "all" 9:12 [twice]). Paul never tries to reconcile this theological tension. They are both true!


Most Bible doctrines are presented in paradoxical or dialectical pairs. Most systems of theology are logical half-truths. Augustinianism and Calvinism versus semi-Pelegianism and Arminianism have elements of truth and error. Biblical tension between doctrines is preferable to a proof-texted, dogmatic, rational, theological system that forces the Bible onto a preconceived interpretive grid.

B. This same truth (found in Rom. 9:23) is stated in Rom. 8:29-30 and Eph. 1:4,11. This chapter is the strongest expression of God's sovereignty in the NT. There can be no dispute that God is in total charge of creation and redemption. This great truth should never be softened or diminished. However, it must be balanced with God's choice of covenant as a means of relating to human creation, made in His image.

It is surely true that some OT covenants, like Genesis 15, are unconditional and do not relate at all to human response, but other covenants are conditioned on human response (e.g., Eden, Noah, Moses, David). God has a plan of redemption for His creation; no human can affect this plan. God has chosen to allow individuals to participate in His plans. This opportunity for participation is a theological tension between sovereignty (Romans 9) and human free will (Romans 10).

It is not appropriate to select one biblical emphasis and ignore another. There is tension between doctrines because eastern people present truth in dialectical or tension-filled pairs. Doctrines must be held in relationship to other doctrines. Truth is a mosaic of truths.

Sound advice.

 

[Johann]

NOT EVEN A CHOICE (JOHN 15:16).

"If" This is another SECOND CLASS CONDITIONAL SENTENCE which means "contrary to fact." It should be translated "If I had not done the works among them which no one else did (but which I did), then they would not have sin, which they do."

Light brings responsibility (cf. John 1:5; 8:12; 12:35,46; 1 John 1:5; 2:8,9,11; Matt. 6:23).

Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Joh 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
Joh 12:35 So Jesus said to them, “The light is among you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going.


1Jn 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

1Jn 2:8 At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining.
1Jn 2:9 Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness.

Mar 6:22 For when Herodias's daughter came in and danced, she pleased Herod and his guests. And the king said to the girl, “Ask me for whatever you wish, and I will give it to you.”
Mar 6:23 And he vowed to her, “Whatever you ask me, I will give you, up to half of my kingdom.”


JOHN'S USE OF THE VERB "BELIEVE"

John primarily combines "believe" with prepositions.

A. eis means "into." This unique construction emphasizes believers putting their trust/faith in Jesus.

1. into His name (John 1:12; 2:23; 3:18; 1 John 5:13)

2. into Him (John 2:11; 3:15,18; 4:39; 6:40; 7:5,31,39,48; 8:30; 9:36; 10:42; 11:45,48; 12:37,42)

3. into Me (John 6:35; 7:38; 11:25,26; 12:44,46; 14:1,12; 16:9; 17:20)

4. into the One He has sent (John 6:28-29)

5. into the Son (John 3:36; 9:35; 1 John 5:10)

6. into Jesus (John 12:11)

7. into Light (John 12:36)

8. into God (John 12:44; 14:1)


B. ev means "in" as in John 3:15 (Mark 1:15)

C. the dative case with no preposition (1 John 3:23; 4:50; 5:10)

D. hoti, which means "believe that," gives content as to what to believe. Some examples are

1. Jesus is the Holy One of God (John 6:69)

2. Jesus is the I Am (John 8:24)

3. Jesus in the Father and the Father in Him (John 10:38)

4. Jesus is the Christ (John 11:27; 20:31)

5. Jesus is the Son of God (John 11:27; 20:31)

6. Jesus was sent by the Father (John 11:42; 17:8,21)

7. Jesus is one with the Father (John 14:10-11)

8. Jesus came from the Father (John 16:27,30)

9. Jesus identified Himself in the covenant name of the Father, "I Am" (John 8:24; 13:19)

Biblical faith is in both a person and a message! It is evidenced by obedience, love, and perseverance.

Nor being passive, that's laziness.

Conclusion

A. Biblical faith is the human response to a divine word/promise. God always initiates (i.e., John 6:44,65), but part of this divine communication is the need for humans to respond

1. repentance

2. faith/trust

3. obedience

4. perseverance

B. Biblical faith is

1. a personal relationship (initial faith)

2. an affirmation of biblical truth (faith in God’s revelation, i.e., Scripture)

3. an appropriate obedient response to it (daily faithfulness)

Biblical faith is not a ticket to heaven or an insurance policy. It is a personal relationship. This is the purpose of creation, humans being made in the image and likeness (cf. Gen. 1:26-27) of God. The issue is "intimacy." God desires fellowship, not a certain theological standing! But fellowship with a holy God demands that the children demonstrate the "family" characteristics (i.e., holiness, cf. Lev. 19:2; Matt. 5:48; 1 Pet. 1:15-16). The Fall (cf. Genesis 3) affected our ability to respond appropriately. Therefore, God acted on our behalf (cf. Ezek. 36:27-38), giving us a "new heart" and a "new spirit," which enables us through faith and repentance to fellowship with Him and obey Him!

All three are crucial. All three must be maintained. The goal is to know God (both Hebrew and Greek senses) and to reflect His character in our lives. The goal of faith is not heaven someday, but Christlikeness every day!

C. Human faithfulness is the result (NT), not the basis (OT) for a relationship with God: human’s faith in His faithfulness; human’s trust in His trustworthiness. The heart of the NT view of salvation is that humans must respond initially and continually to the grace and mercy of God, demonstrated in Christ. He has loved, He has sent, He has provided; we must respond in faith and faithfulness (cf. Eph. 2:8-9 and 10)!

The faithful God wants a faithful people to reveal Himself to a faithless world and bring them to personal faith in Him.

 

[Gilligan]

YOU CLASSIFIED YOURSELF AS A SELF-WILLED PERSON IN YOUR POST QUOTED ABOVE.

You were absolutely correct when you wrote "God does not bow down to the demands of unbelievers" because self-willed unbelievers issue reviling demands like "I chose Jesus and now Jesus must save me".

You've conceded the argument by not addressing the point. The truth is that we do not choose Jesus to be the Christ of God, nor do we choose Him to be our personal Christ and God. Instead of addressing this point, you accuse me of doing what I show Jesus is rebuking.

I don't talk to blank walls. The Jews can wail at their dumb wall. I don't.

 

[Gilligan]

More proof that faith is by choice, and not by predetermined creation for some and not for others:

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

We must repent in order to believe the gospel and do the word of God. Repentance is our part. It is a choice we make, whether to continue doing evil or not.

 

[Gilligan]

You are getting close.....and I admire your patience.

I lose any patience, when others ignore what we say, and just go on with their own stuff. We don't try to talk with deaf walls, do we? ;)

 

[Johann]

I lose any patience, when others ignore what we say, and just go on with their own stuff. We don't try to talk with deaf walls, do we?

A question, if I may...

Our Sanctification, [positional]...once off, then progressive?

Many here hold that we are justified and sanctified, but that our sanctification is not progressive/ongoing.

Your take?

 

[Kermos]

I don't dote about words, nor resort to ancient languages and manuscripts to change teaching. The JW's are famous for it.

And you only do this to divert from the argument. You make commandment into prophecy, and the only part you treat as prophecy is saying 'in the day you surely shall eat thereof..." Which of course is not at all what God is saying.

God neither commands nor prophecies His people to sin, but not to sin, and yet His people do sin. If we have no free will, it is not possible to do anything other than what God commands us.



I have seen how diving into Greek and Hebrew to change what is already plainly written in our own language, only results in coming up with a doctrinally doctored translation, in order to teach something else.

This is a perfect example. God would be telling His own people to disobey Him, by forbidding to eat, and then saying we are to eat.

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

I.e. "You are not to eat of it, but you are to eat of it."

This is where James 1 rebukes those that accuse God of leading man to sinning.

You brought up the JW's teaching tactics, so what happens if your Point of Departure, your English translation of the Bible - what you convey as "I don't dote about words, nor resort to ancient languages and manuscripts to change teaching" is, in effect, your Bible teaching suffering from a similar malady as the JW's because your English translation abandoned the originally authored language's denotation and/or connotation for the Genesis 2:16-17 passage? Please read on before answering because we should look at this situation in careful detail.

We are talking about accurate translation from a known and understood language (Hebrew - vastly the original written language of the Old Testament - in this case, but the concept applies equally to Greek - vastly the original written language of the New Testament) into another known and understood language (English in this case).

Let us step aside for a moment and consider a hypothetical meal recipe for a scrumptious dish according to people near the Aegean Sea, but the plate was developed in antiquity. Say that the dish first appeared around 15 BC.

The first ingredient for the delicacy is:

κυνάριον γλῶσσα

in Greek, the language for this particular cookbook.

Now, let's further postulate a contemporary local church music leader is a connoisseur of culinary delights with an interest in ancient cuisine.

The leader recently discovered the recipe, and his chef has prepared it twice for him.

That first ingredient accurately translates to English as "dog tongue"

• κυνάριον = dog = biblehub.com/greek/2952.htm
• γλῶσσα = tongue = https://biblehub.com/greek/1100.htm

But his chef inexplicably translated the first ingredient as "dog dung".

Then, along comes another multilingual chef, and she says to him "your chef mistranslated the recipe, and you are eating dog dung instead of dog tongue. That could lead to some debilitating disease for you even leading to an agonizing death, and I shudder to think of the crushing injury that you and your chef, in whom your heart trusts so deeply - even your family's well-being, the poison that you two are feeding your baby girl and toddler boy whom you hold in your arms to spoon feed that dish. You need to stop using that false recipe and start using the true recipe, which is safe for human consumption! Here's a copy of the recipe that I accurately translated with bibliography, my friend."

That concludes the example.

Before returning to Genesis 2:16-17, let's take a look at where those two Greek words are used in the New Testament.

"The tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell" (James 3:6).

"Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table" (Matthew 15:27).

Relatedly, "I am the Bread of Life" (John 6:48) says the Christ of us Christians.

It is the Bread of Life, the Word of God, Lord Jesus Christ, in whom we Christians have the pure, non-GMO, unadulterated, true eternal sustenance! And this fact includes the Word of God recorded in Genesis 2:16-17.

@Johann, the parable above appears not in the current essays, but I intend to add it to the Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor essay. We corresponded about this type of thing previously, but this is a specific incident.

Now, back to Genesis 2:16-17.

As post 1,485 to which you replied shows with detailed linguistic references, here's a popular representation from the English Bible translations of Genesis 2:16-17:

The Lord God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may freely eat; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."
​

In reality, the word "freely" does not appear in the Hebrew of the Genesis 2:16-17 passage. The Hebrew source word for "freely" is truly "to eat" in English for Genesis 2:16.

So, based upon the true linguistics of Genesis 2:16-17, the Word of God reveals in Truth (John 14:6):

and commanded YHWH God to the man, saying "Of every tree in the garden to eat you will be eating, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not eating from, when in the day you are to eat of it to die you will be dying"
​

Your translator(s) mistranslated the passage, and you are eating the precepts of men (Matthew 15:9) instead of ingesting the Word of God that we Christians eat (John 6:47-65. That leads to eternal punishment (Matthew 25:45-46), and I shudder to think of the crushing injury that you and your translator(s), in whom your heart trusts so very deeply, are feeding those around you. You need to stop using that faulty translation of the Genesis 2:16-17 passage, and start using the true translation of the Genesis 2:16-17 passage, which together with other passages shows who God is (Sovereign Ruler) and shows who man is (entirely dependent upon God for salvation)! Here's a copy of the Genesis 2:16-17 passage that is accurately translated with bibliographical references.

Not to be neglected, "freely" means "abundantly" or "without cost" in the context of the Genesis 2:16-17 passage, not impartation of free-will ability as God did not say said "freely choose" (the translator(s) didn't even represent the passage with "freely choose" neither), but in Truth (John 14:6), "freely" conveys "abundantly" or "without cost". I am not endorsing the use of the word "freely" in the place where "to eat" is the accurate translation for the Hebrew word אכל (Strong's 398 - eat) in Genesis 2:16, but, rather, God has me righting a wrong.

When you wrote that "freely" conveys "free-will choosing by man", then your heart adulterates the passage into "The Lord God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may freely choose to eat; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die" (the word of Gilligan).

In effect, God said "You are not to eat of it, but you will eat of it to die" (notice this corrects your erroneous second from last paragraph). See, the first clause is command, and the second clause is both prophecy and punishment pronunciation. Adam could not overcome his flesh on his own. This fits snuggly into God's Good Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13).

Do not be deceived, God said "Of every tree in the garden to eat you will be eating, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not eating from, when in the day you are to eat of it to die you will be dying" (Genesis 2:16-17).

Unlike the food serving example above, God's Word causes the new birth - a new eternal Life in Christ that the creature is separated from the former everlasting death as far as the east is from the west!

Praise God for mercifully and unilaterally saving us miserable wretches from the wrath of God, by God's grace for God's glory! Praise Lord Jesus!

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Kermos]

Johann, it appears you may have missed this important post to you.

Joh 15:16 'Ye did not choose out me, but I chose out you, and did appoint you, that ye might go away, and might bear fruit, and your fruit might remain, that whatever ye may ask of the Father in my name, He may give you.

But I chose you (all' egō exelexamēn humas). First aorist middle indicative of eklegō. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (Joh_6:70; Joh_13:18; Joh_15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luk_6:13). So Paul was “a vessel of choice” (skeuos eklogēs, Act_9:15). Appointed (ethēka). First aorist active indicative (k aorist) of tithēmi. Note three present active subjunctives with hina (purpose clause) to emphasize continuance (hupagēte, keep on going, pherēte, keep on bearing fruit, menēi, keep on abiding), not a mere spurt, but permanent growth and fruit-bearing.
He may give (dōi). Second aorist active subjunctive of didōmi with hina (purpose clause). Cf. Joh_14:13 for the same purpose and promise, but with poiēsō (I shall do). See also Joh_16:23, Joh_16:26.
Robertson


Ye have not, &c. = Not that ye chose Me, &c. Figure of speech Antimetabole. App-6. Thus reversing the custom of the Jews for the disciple to choose his own master. See Dr. John Lightfoot, Works, vol. iii. p. 175.

have chosen = chose.

ordained = placed. Greek. tithemi, as in Joh_15:13. Compare 1Ti_1:12; 1Ti_2:7.

2Ti_1:11. Heb_1:2.

JOHN—NOTE ON 15:16 You did not choose me does not negate the disciples’
willing decision to follow Jesus when he called them. Jesus is emphasizing that
the ultimate factor in determining who would follow him was Jesus’ own
choice. The Greek eklegomai has the sense of “to choose or pick out from a group,” and it clearly has that sense also in v. 19.

That you should go and
bear fruit implies that the purpose of Christ’s choosing people is not merely
that their sins be forgiven and they have eternal life but also that their lives be
fruitful and productive in fulfilling God’s purposes. For key passages on the
doctrine of election, see Romans 9 and Ephesians 1.


Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

1. Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
2. Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.


*I think we are on the same page brother*


You did not choose me does not negate the disciples’
willing decision to follow Jesus when he called them.

J.

Johann, your closing paragraph contradicts itself. You wrote:

You did not choose me does not negate the disciples’ willing decision to follow Jesus when he called them.
​

Essentially, you wrote that Jesus says "you did not choose Me except when you chose to follow me, but I chose you" instead of the Lord's actual words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16).

Friend, every occurrence of Christian obedience to any and every command of God is a fruit of the Spirit, that is, an act of God in the Christian for the Word of God says "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing " (John 15:5) and Christ reveals even deeper that a person initially coming to Christ as wrought in God with "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God " (John 3:21); therefore, even the fruit of following Jesus is caused by God - Christians act righteously by following Jesus joyfully by the Power of God!

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Johann]

Johann, it appears you may have missed this important post to you.



Johann, your closing paragraph contradicts itself. You wrote:

​

You did not choose me does not negate the disciples’ willing decision to follow Jesus when he called them.​

​

Essentially, you wrote that Jesus says "you did not choose Me except when you chose to follow me, but I chose you" instead of the Lord's actual words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16).

Friend, every occurrence of Christian obedience to any and every command of God is a fruit of the Spirit, that is, an act of God in the Christian for the Word of God says "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing " (John 15:5) and Christ reveals even deeper that a person initially coming to Christ as wrought in God with "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God " (John 3:21); therefore, even the fruit of following Jesus is caused by God - Christians act righteously by following Jesus joyfully by the Power of God!

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

"ABIDING" IN JOHN'S WRITINGS

John's Gospel describes a special relationship between God the Father and Jesus the Son. It is a mutual intimacy based on Jesus' subjection and equality. Throughout the Gospel Jesus speaks what He hears the Father saying, does what He sees the Father doing. Jesus does not act on His own, but on the will of the Father (i.e., John 5:19,30; 8:28; 12:49; 14:10,24).

This intimate fellowship and servanthood sets the pattern for the relationship between Jesus and His followers. This intimate association was not the absorption of the individual (as in eastern mysticism), but an ethical, moral lifestyle of emulation (cf. John 13:15; 1 Pet. 2:21).

Fellowship was

1. cognitive (the worldview of the gospel as the Word of God)

2. relational (Jesus was God's promised Messiah to be trusted in and leaned on)

3. ethical (His character reproduced in godly believers)



Jesus is the ideal man, the true Israelite, the standard of humanity. He reveals what Adam should have, and could have been (humanly speaking). Jesus is the ultimate "image of God." He restores the fallen divine image in mankind (cf. Gen. 1:26-27) by


1. full, unique, and ultimate revelation of God (cf. John 1:18; 14:7-10; Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:1-2)

2. dying on our behalf (substitutionary atonement, cf. Mark 10:45; 2 Cor. 5:21)

3. providing humans an example to follow (cf. John 13:15; 1 Pet. 2:21; 1 John 1:7)

The term "abiding" (menō) reflects the goal of Christlikeness (cf. Rom. 8:28-30; 2 Cor. 3:18; Gal. 4:19; Eph. 1:4; 4:13; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:3; 5:23; 2 Thess. 2:13; Titus 2:4; 1 Pet. 1:15), the restoration of the Fall (cf. Genesis 3). This reunion of God and His ultimate creation, mankind, for the purpose of fellowship is the Apostle Paul's "in Christ" and the Apostle John's "abide in Me" (i.e., the main text is John 15).

Notice John's usage:

1. Abiding between the Father and Son

a. the Father in the Son (John 10:38; 14:10,11; 17:21,23)

b. the Son in the Father (John10:38; 14:10,11; 17:21)



2. Abiding between Deity and the believer

a. the Father in the believer (John 14:20,23; 1 John 3:24; 4:12-13,15)

b. the believer in the Father (John 14:20,23; 17:21; 1 John 2:24,27; 4:13,16)

c. the Son in the believer (John 6:56; 14:20,23; 15:4,5; 17:23)

d. the believer in the Son (John 6:56; 14:20,23; 15:4,5,7; 1 John 2:6,24,27,28)



3. Other abiding elements (positive)

a. the word of God

1) negatively (John 5:38; 8:37; 1 John 1:10; 2 John 9)

2) positively (John 8:31; 15:2; 1 John 2:14,24; 2 John 9)

b. the love of God (John 15:9-10; 17:26; 1 John 3:17; 4:16)

c. the Spirit of God

1) on the Son (John 1:32)

2) in the believer (John 14:17)

d. obedience is abiding (John 14:15-21,23-24; 15:10; Luke 6:46; 1 John 3:24)

e. love is abiding in light (1 John 2:10)

f. doing the will of God is abiding (1 John 2:17)

g. anointing abides (1 John 2:27)

h. truth abides (2 John 2)

i. the Son abides (John 8:35; 12:34)



4. Other abiding elements (negative)

a. the wrath of God abides (John 3:36)

b. abide in darkness (John 12:46)

c. thrown away. . .burned (not abiding, John 15:6)

d. sinning (not abiding, 1 John 3:6)

e. not loving (not abiding, 1 John 3:14)

f. not a murderer (not eternal life abiding, 1 John 3:15)

g. he who does not live abides in death (1 John 3:14)

PERSEVERANCE

The biblical doctrines related to the Christian life are difficult to explain because they are presented in typically eastern, dialectical pairs (see Special Topic: Eastern Literature [biblical paradoxes]). These pairs seem contradictory, yet both poles are biblical. Western Christians have tended to choose one truth and ignore or depreciate the opposite truth. Some examples:

1. Is salvation an initial decision to trust Christ or a life-time commitment to discipleship?

2. Is salvation an election by means of grace from a sovereign God or a faith and repentant response on mankind's part to a divine offer?

3. Is salvation, once received, impossible to lose, or is there a need for continual diligence?



The issue of perseverance has been contentious throughout church history. The problem starts with seemingly conflicting passages of the NT:

1. texts on assurance

a. statements of Jesus in John's Gospel (John 6:37; 10:28-29)

b. statements of Paul (Rom. 8:35-39; Eph. 1:13; 2:5,8-9; Phil. 1:6; 2:13; 2 Thess. 3:3; 2 Tim. 1:12; 4:18)

c. statements of Peter (1 Pet. 1:4-5)

2. texts on the need for perseverance

a. statements of Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels (Matt. 10:22; 13:1-9,24-30; 24:13; Mark 13:13)

b. statements of Jesus in John's Gospel (John 8:31; 15:4-10)

c. statements of Paul (Rom. 11:22; 1 Cor. 15:2; 2 Cor. 13:5; Gal. 1:6; 3:4; 5:4; 6:9; Phil. 2:12; 3:18-20; Col. 1:23; 2 Tim. 3:2)

d. statements of the author of Hebrews (2:1; 3:6,14; 4:14; 6:11)

e. statements of John (1 John 2:6; 2 John 9; Rev. 2:7,17,26; 3:5,12,21; 21:7)



Biblical salvation issues from the love, mercy, and grace of a sovereign Triune God. No human can be saved without the initiation of the Spirit (cf. John 6:44,65). Deity comes first and sets the agenda, but demands that humans must respond in faith and repentance, both initially and continually.

This is what you are in denial of...human responsibility-obedience

God works with mankind in a covenant relationship. There are privileges and responsibilities!

Salvation is offered to all humans. Jesus' death dealt with the sin problem of the fallen creation! God has provided a way and wants all those made in His image to respond to His love and provision in Jesus.

If you would like to read more on this subject see

1. Dale Moody, The Word of Truth, Eerdmans, 1981 (pp. 348-365)

2. Howard Marshall, Kept by the Power of God, Bethany Fellowship, 1969

3. Robert Shank, Life in the Son, Westcott, 1961



The Bible addresses two different problems in this area: (1) taking assurance as a license to live fruitless, selfish lives or (2) encouraging those who struggle with ministry and personal sin. The problem is that the wrong groups are taking the wrong message and building theological systems on limited biblical passages.

Some Christians desperately need the message of assurance, while others need the stern warnings of perseverance! Which group are you in?

There is a historical theological controversy involving Augustine versus Pelagius and Calvin versus Arminius (semi-Pelagian). The issue involves the question of salvation: if one is truly saved, must he persevere in faith and fruitfulness?

The Calvinists line up behind those biblical texts that assert God's sovereignty and keeping-power (John 10:27-30; Rom. 8:31-39; 1 John 5:13,18; 1 Pet. 1:3-5) and verb tenses like the perfect passive participles of Eph. 2:5,8.

The Arminians line up behind those biblical texts that warn believers to "hold on," "hold out," or "continue" (Matt. 10:22; 24:9-13; Mark 13:13; John 15:4-6; 1 Cor. 15:2; Gal. 6:9; Rev. 2:7,11,17,26; 3:5,12,21; 21:7). I personally do not believe that Hebrews 6 and 10 are applicable, but many Arminians use them as a warning against apostasy.

The parable of the Sower in Matthew 13 and Mark 4 addresses the issue of apparent belief, as does John 8:31-59. As Calvinists quote the perfect tense verbs used to describe salvation, the Arminians quote the present tense passages like 1 Cor. 1:18; 15:2; 2 Cor. 2:15.

This is a perfect example of how theological systems abuse the proof-texting method of interpretation. Usually a guiding principle or chief text is used to construct a theological grid by which all other texts are viewed. Be careful of grids from any source.

 

[Kermos]

"ABIDING" IN JOHN'S WRITINGS

John's Gospel describes a special relationship between God the Father and Jesus the Son. It is a mutual intimacy based on Jesus' subjection and equality. Throughout the Gospel Jesus speaks what He hears the Father saying, does what He sees the Father doing. Jesus does not act on His own, but on the will of the Father (i.e., John 5:19,30; 8:28; 12:49; 14:10,24).

This intimate fellowship and servanthood sets the pattern for the relationship between Jesus and His followers. This intimate association was not the absorption of the individual (as in eastern mysticism), but an ethical, moral lifestyle of emulation (cf. John 13:15; 1 Pet. 2:21).

Fellowship was

1. cognitive (the worldview of the gospel as the Word of God)

2. relational (Jesus was God's promised Messiah to be trusted in and leaned on)

3. ethical (His character reproduced in godly believers)



Jesus is the ideal man, the true Israelite, the standard of humanity. He reveals what Adam should have, and could have been (humanly speaking). Jesus is the ultimate "image of God." He restores the fallen divine image in mankind (cf. Gen. 1:26-27) by


1. full, unique, and ultimate revelation of God (cf. John 1:18; 14:7-10; Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:1-2)

2. dying on our behalf (substitutionary atonement, cf. Mark 10:45; 2 Cor. 5:21)

3. providing humans an example to follow (cf. John 13:15; 1 Pet. 2:21; 1 John 1:7)

The term "abiding" (menō) reflects the goal of Christlikeness (cf. Rom. 8:28-30; 2 Cor. 3:18; Gal. 4:19; Eph. 1:4; 4:13; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:3; 5:23; 2 Thess. 2:13; Titus 2:4; 1 Pet. 1:15), the restoration of the Fall (cf. Genesis 3). This reunion of God and His ultimate creation, mankind, for the purpose of fellowship is the Apostle Paul's "in Christ" and the Apostle John's "abide in Me" (i.e., the main text is John 15).

Notice John's usage:

1. Abiding between the Father and Son

a. the Father in the Son (John 10:38; 14:10,11; 17:21,23)

b. the Son in the Father (John10:38; 14:10,11; 17:21)



2. Abiding between Deity and the believer

a. the Father in the believer (John 14:20,23; 1 John 3:24; 4:12-13,15)

b. the believer in the Father (John 14:20,23; 17:21; 1 John 2:24,27; 4:13,16)

c. the Son in the believer (John 6:56; 14:20,23; 15:4,5; 17:23)

d. the believer in the Son (John 6:56; 14:20,23; 15:4,5,7; 1 John 2:6,24,27,28)



3. Other abiding elements (positive)

a. the word of God

1) negatively (John 5:38; 8:37; 1 John 1:10; 2 John 9)

2) positively (John 8:31; 15:2; 1 John 2:14,24; 2 John 9)

b. the love of God (John 15:9-10; 17:26; 1 John 3:17; 4:16)

c. the Spirit of God

1) on the Son (John 1:32)

2) in the believer (John 14:17)

d. obedience is abiding (John 14:15-21,23-24; 15:10; Luke 6:46; 1 John 3:24)

e. love is abiding in light (1 John 2:10)

f. doing the will of God is abiding (1 John 2:17)

g. anointing abides (1 John 2:27)

h. truth abides (2 John 2)

i. the Son abides (John 8:35; 12:34)



4. Other abiding elements (negative)

a. the wrath of God abides (John 3:36)

b. abide in darkness (John 12:46)

c. thrown away. . .burned (not abiding, John 15:6)

d. sinning (not abiding, 1 John 3:6)

e. not loving (not abiding, 1 John 3:14)

f. not a murderer (not eternal life abiding, 1 John 3:15)

g. he who does not live abides in death (1 John 3:14)

PERSEVERANCE

The biblical doctrines related to the Christian life are difficult to explain because they are presented in typically eastern, dialectical pairs (see Special Topic: Eastern Literature [biblical paradoxes]). These pairs seem contradictory, yet both poles are biblical. Western Christians have tended to choose one truth and ignore or depreciate the opposite truth. Some examples:

1. Is salvation an initial decision to trust Christ or a life-time commitment to discipleship?

2. Is salvation an election by means of grace from a sovereign God or a faith and repentant response on mankind's part to a divine offer?

3. Is salvation, once received, impossible to lose, or is there a need for continual diligence?



The issue of perseverance has been contentious throughout church history. The problem starts with seemingly conflicting passages of the NT:

1. texts on assurance

a. statements of Jesus in John's Gospel (John 6:37; 10:28-29)

b. statements of Paul (Rom. 8:35-39; Eph. 1:13; 2:5,8-9; Phil. 1:6; 2:13; 2 Thess. 3:3; 2 Tim. 1:12; 4:18)

c. statements of Peter (1 Pet. 1:4-5)

2. texts on the need for perseverance

a. statements of Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels (Matt. 10:22; 13:1-9,24-30; 24:13; Mark 13:13)

b. statements of Jesus in John's Gospel (John 8:31; 15:4-10)

c. statements of Paul (Rom. 11:22; 1 Cor. 15:2; 2 Cor. 13:5; Gal. 1:6; 3:4; 5:4; 6:9; Phil. 2:12; 3:18-20; Col. 1:23; 2 Tim. 3:2)

d. statements of the author of Hebrews (2:1; 3:6,14; 4:14; 6:11)

e. statements of John (1 John 2:6; 2 John 9; Rev. 2:7,17,26; 3:5,12,21; 21:7)



Biblical salvation issues from the love, mercy, and grace of a sovereign Triune God. No human can be saved without the initiation of the Spirit (cf. John 6:44,65). Deity comes first and sets the agenda, but demands that humans must respond in faith and repentance, both initially and continually.

This is what you are in denial of...human responsibility-obedience

God works with mankind in a covenant relationship. There are privileges and responsibilities!

Salvation is offered to all humans. Jesus' death dealt with the sin problem of the fallen creation! God has provided a way and wants all those made in His image to respond to His love and provision in Jesus.

If you would like to read more on this subject see

1. Dale Moody, The Word of Truth, Eerdmans, 1981 (pp. 348-365)

2. Howard Marshall, Kept by the Power of God, Bethany Fellowship, 1969

3. Robert Shank, Life in the Son, Westcott, 1961



The Bible addresses two different problems in this area: (1) taking assurance as a license to live fruitless, selfish lives or (2) encouraging those who struggle with ministry and personal sin. The problem is that the wrong groups are taking the wrong message and building theological systems on limited biblical passages.

Some Christians desperately need the message of assurance, while others need the stern warnings of perseverance! Which group are you in?

There is a historical theological controversy involving Augustine versus Pelagius and Calvin versus Arminius (semi-Pelagian). The issue involves the question of salvation: if one is truly saved, must he persevere in faith and fruitfulness?

The Calvinists line up behind those biblical texts that assert God's sovereignty and keeping-power (John 10:27-30; Rom. 8:31-39; 1 John 5:13,18; 1 Pet. 1:3-5) and verb tenses like the perfect passive participles of Eph. 2:5,8.

The Arminians line up behind those biblical texts that warn believers to "hold on," "hold out," or "continue" (Matt. 10:22; 24:9-13; Mark 13:13; John 15:4-6; 1 Cor. 15:2; Gal. 6:9; Rev. 2:7,11,17,26; 3:5,12,21; 21:7). I personally do not believe that Hebrews 6 and 10 are applicable, but many Arminians use them as a warning against apostasy.

The parable of the Sower in Matthew 13 and Mark 4 addresses the issue of apparent belief, as does John 8:31-59. As Calvinists quote the perfect tense verbs used to describe salvation, the Arminians quote the present tense passages like 1 Cor. 1:18; 15:2; 2 Cor. 2:15.

This is a perfect example of how theological systems abuse the proof-texting method of interpretation. Usually a guiding principle or chief text is used to construct a theological grid by which all other texts are viewed. Be careful of grids from any source.

We Christians believe Christ, and the Christ says "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and Christ reveals even deeper that a person initially coming to Christ as well as following Christ as wrought in God with "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21); therefore, even the fruit of following Jesus is caused by God - Christians joyfully act righteously by following Jesus lovingly by the Power of God!

It appears to me that you are trying to nullify Christ's words.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Johann]

It appears to me that you are trying to nullify Christ's words.

Really? You really think I would want to "nullify" Christ's words?
I'm just a pilgrim and a stranger onward to the celestial city.

INTERPRETER: The Interpreter answered, This parlor is the heart of a man that was never
sanctified by the sweet grace of the Gospel. The dust is his original sin, and inward corruptions,
that have defiled the whole man. He that began to sweep at first, is the law; but she that brought
water, and did sprinkle it, is the Gospel. Now whereas thou sawest, that so soon as the first began
to sweep, the dust did so fly about that the room by him could not be cleansed, but that thou wast
almost choked therewith; this is to show thee, that the law, instead of cleansing the heart (by its
working) from sin, doth revive, Rom. 7:9, put strength into, 1 Cor. 15:56, and increase it in the
soul, Rom. 5:20, even as it doth discover and forbid it; for it doth not give power to subdue. Again,
as thou sawest the damsel sprinkle the room with water, upon which it was cleansed with pleasure,
this is to show thee, that when the Gospel comes in the sweet and precious influences thereof to
the heart, then, I say, even as thou sawest the damsel lay the dust by sprinkling the floor with water,
so is sin vanquished and subdued, and the soul made clean, through the faith of it, and consequently
fit for the King of glory to inhabit. John 15:3; Eph. 5:26; Acts 15:9; Rom. 16:25,26.

 

[Kermos]

The "no free will" theology came from John Calvin, not the bible.

Consider....

If God was in total control of all minds, in all Humans, then the world would have no sin, no death, no hatred, no wars, no chaos.
It would be perfect and orderly, and never change.

Do you see anything like that outside your window pane?
You do not.
And that is because God allows man to choose what they want to do, and you see the end result

War
Death by Murder
Porn
Rape
Stealing
Lying
Cheating
Hatred
Revenge
Lust
Envy
Greed
Bribery
Drunkenness
Divorce
Child Molesting
Fornication

ONLINE Ordering from Amazon.
Binge Watching NETFLIX

See all that and more?
That is MAN (you) using your God given = FREE WILL.... >to choose to do all that.... if that is your choice or you choose not to do it.

This is why God holds you accountable for your choices.
See, if He caused you to do it, then He can't blame you or hold you accountable.
It does not take a genius to understand that simple fact, but a person who is deceived by John Calvin, can't see it, until they do.

Its time you did, reader.... Hyper Calvinst..... Deceived.
The HERETIC John Calvin lied to you, and you are repeating His Demonic lies.

Wake up, and get out of His Calvinism CULT.

Hmmm, I don't find the name John Calvin in the Bible, but I do find the name Jesus, who is the Christ, in the Bible.

And the Christ of us Christians says:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15 , the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

Free-willian philosophy adherents delusionally preach that people are able to choose Jesus - the very opposite of the Christ's proclamation and teaching the very opposite of the Word of God. Free-willians believe not Jesus the Christ's words, and the Christ says "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

The Bondage Of A Man's Will​

Free-willians, in a respect, are correct that "there's no difference between self will and free will", and that respect is that both self will and free will lead to hell.
Now, instead of listening to themselves lie with things like "Free will is all through the scriptures", they need to listen to Apostolic testimony as shown below.

Peter the Apostle wrote that prior to being saved, people have a self will thus committing atrocities such as those you listed that brings such people under damnation with the devil according to the Apostle Peter (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Paul the Apostle wrote that after being saved, people have a will that is bound under the loving control of God according to the Apostle Paul (Philippians 2:13).

Here's Paul from the Bible, again. Overall, Paul uses free will as illusory instead of concrete in Philemon 1:14 - and this is the only occurrence of "free will" that I am aware of in the New American Standard Bible New Testament.

Free-willians do not have a free will, as described by Paul.

Free-willians do have a self will, as described by Peter.

Free-willians gleefully separate themselves from God's will and the Christ of us Christians Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19). We Christians in God's Spirit have a will bound enthusiastically in joy and love to God by God for God through God, as described by Paul.

The above mentioned Apostolic testimony verbatim:

• "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, 10and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).
• "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
• "but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).

By God's grace, for God's glory!

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Kermos]

Really? You really think I would want to "nullify" Christ's words?
I'm just a pilgrim and a stranger onward to the celestial city.

INTERPRETER: The Interpreter answered, This parlor is the heart of a man that was never
sanctified by the sweet grace of the Gospel. The dust is his original sin, and inward corruptions,
that have defiled the whole man. He that began to sweep at first, is the law; but she that brought
water, and did sprinkle it, is the Gospel. Now whereas thou sawest, that so soon as the first began
to sweep, the dust did so fly about that the room by him could not be cleansed, but that thou wast
almost choked therewith; this is to show thee, that the law, instead of cleansing the heart (by its
working) from sin, doth revive, Rom. 7:9, put strength into, 1 Cor. 15:56, and increase it in the
soul, Rom. 5:20, even as it doth discover and forbid it; for it doth not give power to subdue. Again,
as thou sawest the damsel sprinkle the room with water, upon which it was cleansed with pleasure,
this is to show thee, that when the Gospel comes in the sweet and precious influences thereof to
the heart, then, I say, even as thou sawest the damsel lay the dust by sprinkling the floor with water,
so is sin vanquished and subdued, and the soul made clean, through the faith of it, and consequently
fit for the King of glory to inhabit. John 15:3; Eph. 5:26; Acts 15:9; Rom. 16:25,26.

When you wrote:

You did not choose me does not negate the disciples’
willing decision to follow Jesus when he called them.

J.

You most certainly appear to me to be attempting to nullify the Christ's words.

Essentially, you wrote that Jesus says "you did not choose Me except when you chose to follow me, but I chose you" instead of the Lord's actual words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16).

Friend, every occurrence of Christian obedience to any and every command of God is a fruit of the Spirit, that is, an act of God in the Christian for the Word of God says "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing " (John 15:5) and Christ reveals even deeper that a person initially coming to Christ as wrought in God with "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God " (John 3:21); therefore, even the fruit of following Jesus is caused by God - Christians act righteously by following Jesus joyfully by the Power of God!

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If adam had no free will. Then by defenition God forced him to sin

then by defenition. God could not punish Adam, because Adam did What god wanted him to do..

 

[Kermos]

I lose any patience, when others ignore what we say, and just go on with their own stuff. We don't try to talk with deaf walls, do we? ;)

"Love is patient" (the Apostle Paul, 1 Corinthians 13:4).

"the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience" (the Apostle Paul, Galatians 5:22).

"I lose any patience" (the word of Gilligan).

Gilligan, you avoid to patiently discuss the Word of God on topic of the original post.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

"Love is patient" (the Apostle Paul, 1 Corinthians 13:4).

"the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience" (the Apostle Paul, Galatians 5:22).

"I lose any patience" (the word of Gilligan).

Gilligan, you avoid to patiently discuss the Word of God on topic of the original post.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

This is false.

Adam had free will. Everyone does

the mere fact Adam was given a choice. Proves he had free will

 

[Pierac]

Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

The Word of God indicates no based upon both scriptural text and context.

The following is carefully presented proof establishing Adam was formed with intent not endowed with free will.

1. God issued prophecy about man eating the fruit (Genesis 2:17)
   AT the time God commanded the man, Adam, not to eat of the tree
   AND the consequence of disobedience is declared - that is that death of the man would result in eating from the tree
   YET a command does not convey ability (see also God's Commands Distinguised From Man's Ability)
   BUT the language contains a prophetic construct indicating assurance of occurrence - "for in the day that you eat" - the "for" is promissory
   NOT a conditional logic construct such as "if in the day that you eat"
   IN fact, the English word "for" is translated from the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki)
   AND the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki) contains the meanings of these English words "that", "for", "when" (Strong's Hebrew: 3588. כִּ֗י (ki) -- that, for, when)
   THEREFORE the word "when" fits where the word "for" resides in Genesis 2:17
   THUS the phrase "when in the day that you eat" is an accurate translation for Genesis 2:17
   SO this confirms the promissory nature, the prophecy of man eating the fruit, with the word "for"/"when" in Genesis 2:17
   AND this imposes contextual certainty indicating God's foreknowledge over the matter described in Genesis 2:17
   SO there is no free will indicated for Adam
   AND the firm fact is established
   THAT God reigns in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)
2. Attributes/Characteristics Compared And Contrasted
   1. Examining attribute as relating to the purported facility of free will in Adam
      WITH a targeted result of logical deductive reasoning leveraging compare and contrast of attributes/facilities
      SINCE Adam was made in the image according to the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26)
      THEN some persons of the creation (creatures) argue that specific facility was given to Adam
      IN particular God willpowering purported free will into man during the creation of Adam
      THEN Adam could not have used free will to perform evil against God
      BECAUSE God will not use willpower in order to perform evil against God's self (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 92:15, Deuteronomy 32:4)
      THEREFORE it follows that Man could not use free will in order to perform evil against God
      1. The logical extension of free will on this basis results in man possessing expanded facilities beyond God's facilities
      2. God is Creator; on the other hand, man is creature
      3. Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.
      4. Scripture does not include the mention of endowing Adam with free will
      5. Man's free will is a precept of man (Matthew 15:9)
   2. Adam as part of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world
      SINCE God saw creation was very good on the 6th Day (Genesis 1:31)
      AND God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind is good (Ephesians 1:1-14,Ephesians 2:13)
      THEN a free will Adam could not have been roaming the Garden of Eden with the ability to choose to obey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17)
      SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THUS a free will Adam could have disrupted God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind
      SO God could not conclude with certainty by declaring everything was good on the sixth day with a free will Adam in control roaming the Garden of Eden
      THEREFORE it follows that Adam could not be endowed with the attribute of free will
   3. The timeline of Adam knowing good and evil
      BEFORE Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THEN Adam and Eve knew not good and evil
      AFTER Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THEN Adam and Eve knew good and evil
      FOR the delineation is clarified when God said "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22)
      YET based on the Word of God saying "has become" recorded in Genesis 3:22
      THEN Adam did not know good and evil before eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      SO Adam did not know good and evil when God issued the command "from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die!" (Genesis 2:17)
      THEREFORE at the time of eating, Adam listened and followed the last that he heard about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      WHICH Adam heard from Eve
      FOR God said "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17)
      SO Adam listened to Eve and Adam ate from the tree prior to knowing good and evil
      AND a person does good by obeying God; on the other hand, a person does evil by disobeying God
      SO free will choosing of good or choosing of evil is not the context
      AND action is the context
      SINCE good and evil are not known to Adam prior to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THEREFORE it follows that Adam was not endowed with the attribute of free will
   4. The attribute of "joining" - marriage
      1. Lord Jesus says a topically very profound statement of "from the beginning of creation, [God] made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together let no man separate." (Mark 10:6-9)
      2. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Christ and the Bride of Christ
      3. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to marriage between "male and female" (creatures both)
      4. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Adam and Eve, the man and the woman
      5. God does the joining, while, on the other hand, man and woman are only the joyful recipients
      6. The facility of "joining" is not attributed to man and/or woman
      7. The facility of "joining" is attributed to God

For expanded topic coverage, please see this integral essay Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor (not a ChristianityBoard.com link),

If anyone venture a reply to this thread, I encourage diligent care for it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

May the Lord abound mercy and understanding and strength and grace in we His own for the Day approaches rapidly!

Who knows???

Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope


Not willingly.... Just crazy to even think about.... LOL

 

[Johann]

"by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work, created in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Looks like you missed this @Kermos

the singular τό ἔργον is used collectively of an aggregate of actions (German dasHandeln), Jas_1:4; τίνος, the genitive of person and subjunctive, his whole way of feeling and acting, his aims and endeavors: Gal_6:4; 1Pe_1:17; Rev_22:12; τό ἔργον τοῦ νόμου, the course of action demanded by the law, Rom_2:15. With epithets: ἀγαθόν ἔργον, i. e. either a benefaction, 2Co_9:8; plural Act_9:36; or every good work springing from piety, Rom_2:7; Col_1:10; 2Th_2:17; Tit_1:16; 2Ti_2:21; 2Ti_3:17; Heb_13:21 (T WH omit ἔργον); plural Eph_2:10; or what harmonizes with the order of society, Rom_13:3; Tit_3:1; ἔργον καλόν, a good deed, noble action (see καλός, b. and c.): Mat_26:10; Mar_14:6; plural (often in Attic writings), Mat_5:16; 1Ti_5:10; 1Ti_5:25; 1Ti_6:18; Tit_2:7; Tit_3:8; Tit_3:14; Heb_10:24; 1Pe_2:12; τά ἔργα τά ἐν δικαιοσύνη equivalent to τά δίκαια, Tit_3:5; τά ἔργα τοῦ Θεοῦ, the works required and approved by God, Joh_6:28 (Jer_31:10 (); 1Es_7:9; 1Es_7:15), in the same sense ἔργα μου i. e. of Christ, Rev_2:26; ἔργον πίστεως, wrought by faith, the course of conduct which springs from faith, 1Th_1:3;
Thayer's Unabridged Lexicon

created in Christ Jesus unto good works; the work of grace is a creation, or a creature, a new creature; not a new vamp of old Adam's principles, but; an infusion of new ones, and is a work of almighty power; and such who have it wrought in them, are said to be created in Christ; because as soon as a man becomes a new creature, he is openly and visibly in Christ; and by these new principles of grace which are created in him, he is fit and ready, and in a capacity to perform good works; the new man formed in him, is formed for righteousness and true holiness; the internal principle of grace both excites unto, and qualifies for, the performance of righteous and holy actions:
Gill

Which will give you more power that the will is bound, incapable of performing good works independently and apart from being in Christ, correct?