"As a Thief in the Night"

[FaithWillDo]

The armies of heaven are the angels. sorry Jesus made that clear before Pilate and the disciples in the garden.

Dear Mr. Nolette,

I can't respond to everything you stated but I will respond to some of it.

You said:
Well you are part of the church so can we assume what you teach is completely false? what you teach falls under the blanket of covenant amillenial eschatology. which redefines so many passages of scripture with spiritual meaning.

All of scripture is written in the spiritual language of Christ. Until a person can understand that language, scripture is going to remain "veiled".

I spent the first 44 years of my life in the "church" in an unknowingly fallen away and deceived spiritual condition. Then, on Oct 8th, 2005, Christ came to me a second time and poured out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon me while I was at home. After that event, I have never fellowshipped with any church again. There simply are no churches which teach the truth of Christ. The churches have all been devoured by the wolves which Paul said would come shortly after his departing. This is the apostasy Paul said would come (2Thes 2:3). Nothing has changed in the church since that time.

Do you believe the wolves left the church and if so, when?

Here is my conversion testimony which I wrote shortly after I was converted in 2005:

Two years ago, my wife Julie and I had been without a church home for 4 years after having moved to Fayetteville, AR. We visited many churches during that time (some for 3 or 4 months) but we never could find any that seemed to have a real love for the Lord. After our own personal study of the scripture, we decided that we wanted to be baptized in the Name of Jesus instead of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit as we had done many years ago. We could not find any churches that would baptize this way until we talked to a friend (Rusty Newman) who went to a Oneness Pentecostal church in Bentonville, AR. We decided to go and be baptized there even though we were from a Church of Christ/Baptist type background.

Four weeks later, my wife was filled with the Spirit at home and started speaking in tongues. It was a very powerful experience with her. She was constantly filled for about two weeks, speaking in tongues nearly every time she opened her mouth. She spent a great deal of time on her knees in tears speaking in tongues as she prayed. We didn't really know what to think of it. Like I said, we were from a church background that denies tongues. We were not children either, I was 43 and she was 37. We really were amazed with her experience. A few weeks went by and she would still go on her knees in prayer every day and the Spirit would speak through her in tongues until one day as she spoke, the words changed into English. We soon realized that she was prophesying in the Spirit. We had never even heard of this gift before and were greatly amazed by it. Over the next year & a half, she has received "words" (that is what we call them) from the Lord more than two dozen times. One of the words she received told us (me & her) that the Lord had great treasure for us if we would continue seeking him.

I will quote it to you:

"I am. I know your heart. Seek Me and I will be found. Look deep into My Word. The truth is not to be given by man but only revealed by Me. It is for those whose hearts desire it above the treasures of this world. You must give up all and treasure you will receive. I am the truth and the only way. I am the Lord."

Julie received this "word" in July 2004. I know what you are thinking - I wouldn't have believed it is real either if someone were to tell me about it happening to someone else. I was not sure whether to believe it or not for a long time. But after a few months, I did come to believe it was really from the Lord because the things she prayed over and received "words" concerning, would come to pass just as she prophesied.

Then four weeks ago, my journey to the Lord took a sudden and giant step! I saw a picture on foxnews.com of a young Muslim boy (age 12) who had just lived through the recent Pakistan earthquake. For some reason, my heart for this boy was really going out to him. I have rarely ever felt this way before by a news story. That evening in prayer at home, the image of the boy came back to me and I grieved for him as I prayed. I was not grieving for him because of the earthquake but because I thought that he was going to be eternally lost and that he really doesn't have a realistic chance of being saved. I couldn't understand why I had been blessed with the opportunity to know the Lord and why he has virtually no opportunity since he lives in a Muslim country. I asked the Lord why this was the case. I was so confused and couldn't understand why he was most likely going to hell just because of where he had been born. Almost three days had passed since I had prayed that prayer and I had not given it much more thought. But on that third day (Friday, Oct. 7, 2005) I had some extra time at work so I decided to study "end-time" prophecy on the internet (my great passion). I went to Google and searched on a couple of words (I can't remember them now) and a list of websites came up. I looked through the list and noticed Ray Smith's website “bible-truths.com”. I thought it looked interesting so I clicked on it. By the next morning, I had read his Lake of Fire Series for a few hours and was now on part four. I couldn't believe what I was reading but I felt compelled to continue reading it anyway. Later that same morning (Saturday, Oct. 8, 2005), I took a break from my reading to pray about it. I prayed for the Lord to open my eyes if what Ray Smith had written was true and went back to reading. I was still on the fourth part when the Lord suddenly opened my eyes. I became overjoyed at the truth the Lord had just revealed to me! It was joy like I had never felt before in my life. It was at that point that I remembered my prayer from earlier in the week concerning the Muslim boy. Immediately, I knew that this new truth which the Lord had just shown me was the answer to that prayer. I was overjoyed again. I then decided to find Julie (she was in the kitchen) and share with her what the Lord had just revealed to me. I explained to her what I had been reading and pointed out the supporting scriptures. Within 30 minutes, she was filled with the Spirit and began praising the Lord because of the new knowledge of the truth that He had revealed to her, too.

The last 4 weeks Julie and I have studied scripture every day and have been trying to share the new truths with our friends at church. But cutting through the details, we ended up leaving the church for good a few days ago. No one there could receive the truth that the Lord had revealed to us. In just four short weeks, we had learned so much from our studies that nearly everything we knew before as “truth”, we now knew to be lies. I could hardly believe how spiritually blind we were just a few short weeks before. Now from scripture, we have come to understand what had just happened in both our lives - the Lord had appeared unto us a second time, baptized us with His Spirit (Latter Rain) and healed our spiritual blindness. We found the "treasure" mentioned in Julie’s prophecy from about a year & a half ago. We didn't even remember her receiving that "word" until I stumbled across it a few days ago from an old email I had sent to a family member. When I reminded her of it and read it to her, she was filled with tears of joy again.

The next day, Julie received another "word" from the Lord. It said:

"I will answer. I have shown you the truth in My Word. It is only revealed to those who seek it. It is by faith. It is for those who seek to know Me. I will bring all before My judgment, which is righteous and true. I will complete all things as I have committed to do by My Word. The things of the Spirit cannot be understood by man, even if I reveal it. It will be as I have spoken it. Some will hear and not believe. Some will hear and search but will desire the favor of men more than Me. Some will hear and seek understanding, and by faith I will show them. These will be few. These few will rejoice as one who has found great treasure! Keep seeking, remain faithful and I will give abundant blessings. You ask of Yahweh. I Am that I Am, come to men to show them the Light. Of the One, from and in the One when all things are completed as it was established before time. All will be brought to life in the One. It will not then be needful to show man God or give man His Spirit. Man cannot receive more because he cannot understand".

Over the years since our conversion, the Lord has blessed us beyond anything we could have imagined. And as we were “freely given”, we now freely give to those who truly seek to know the Lord.

I will make a few other comments in a second post.
Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Well you are part of the church so can we assume what you teach is completely false? what you teach falls under the blanket of covenant amillenial eschatology. which redefines so many passages of scripture with spiritual meaning.

I teach dispensational pretribulational eschatology which is the minority position in the believing churches.

Are you teaching here that a believer can lose their salvation?

This is evil.

Sorry but this is an unbeliever. A BELIEVER CANNOT BE POSSESSED BY EVIL SPIRITS! eVER


So you are becoming a man of sin then. OK!

YOu are in for a rude awakening. Yo uare teaching from teh revised word of faith will do and not from the delivered word of God! All this spiritualizing and redefining is putting you in grave grave danger!

​

Dear Mr. Lolette,

You said:
I teach dispensational pretribulational eschatology which is the minority position in the believing churches.
Are you teaching here that a believer can lose their salvation?
This is evil.
Sorry but this is an unbeliever. A BELIEVER CANNOT BE POSSESSED BY EVIL SPIRITS!

I used to teach end-time prophecy in the last church I attended prior to 2005. It was my great passion. However, since my conversion, I have rejected everything I used to believe about end-time prophecy. The truth of end-prophecy is that it teaches the Pathway to Salvation. The events described by end-time prophecy are spiritual events which happen within a believer.

The book of Revelation says that the "sayings of the prophecy" must be kept by the believer if they are going to be blessed. The Elect are those who are blessed. The book also says the time is "at hand" and that Christ will come quickly. The book even tells John not to seal the prophecies.

To understand the prophecies of Revelation as most do, how can those statements be true if those events are outward, world events which happen at the end of the literal age?

The book also says that Christ "is, was and will be coming" and it says it multiple times. Christ's second coming is a spiritual event in the lives of each of the Elect. And as I stated in my previous post, He came to me in 2005. I have kept all the sayings of the book of Revelation. However, it was the work of Christ within me which caused me to keep those sayings. I have no works of my own to claim.

As for losing one's salvation, it is taught in numerous places of scripture. However, it can only happen after a person has received the Early Rain of the Spirit. The Early Rain is only an "earnest amount" (a down payment) of the full amount which will be given when Christ comes a second time.

Eph 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of Promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The "redemption of the purchased possession" occurs when Christ comes again to one of His Elect with the Latter Rain. That is the salvation point. After that event, the believer will never fall away again. Their calling and election is "made sure" (2Pet 1:10).

As for a called out believer being indwelled by the spirit of anti-Christ, it most certainly can happen, and in fact, it ALWAYS happens shortly after a person is "called out". I presented this truth from Christ's teaching in Mat 12:43-45 in an earlier post.

Here is another teaching from Christ on it:

Mar 5:2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, 3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: 4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. 5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones. 6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, 7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, what have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. 8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit. 9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, my name is LEGION; for we are many. 10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country. 11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding. 12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. 13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.

Here is a brief summary of the spiritual message this story teaches:

The man with the many unclean spirits represents the Elect just prior to their conversion. The stones the man uses to cut himself represents the Law of Moses (man’s work). The unclean spirit (Legion, who are many) represents the spirit of anti-Christ who has spiritually killed the man (he dwells among the tombs). When Christ comes to the man with the Latter Rain of the Spirit, Christ drives out the spirit of anti-Christ by the brightness of His appearing. This represents the judgment of the Beast and False Prophet. Before this happens, Legion asks to go into the great herd of Swine feeding upon the hill. The Herd of Swine represents called out believers who are also chosen (“2000” in the herd). When Legion enters the Swine, they run into the sea and are killed just as the possessed man was killed earlier.

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares is another teaching about the spirit of anti-Christ. I will explain it in a second post.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Well you are part of the church so can we assume what you teach is completely false? what you teach falls under the blanket of covenant amillenial eschatology. which redefines so many passages of scripture with spiritual meaning.

A BELIEVER CANNOT BE POSSESSED BY EVIL SPIRITS! eVER

Well you are part of the church so can we assume what you teach is completely false? what you teach falls under the blanket of covenant amillenial eschatology. which redefines so many passages of scripture with spiritual meaning.

I teach dispensational pretribulational eschatology which is the minority position in the believing churches.

Are you teaching here that a believer can lose their salvation?

This is evil.

Sorry but this is an unbeliever. A BELIEVER CANNOT BE POSSESSED BY EVIL SPIRITS! eVER


So you are becoming a man of sin then. OK!

YOu are in for a rude awakening. Yo uare teaching from teh revised word of faith will do and not from the delivered word of God! All this spiritualizing and redefining is putting you in grave grave danger!

2 Peter 3:15-17​

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King James Version​

​

​

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Dear Mr. Nolette,

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares:

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

This parable is one of the "the Kingdom of Heaven is like" parables. All parables which start off in this manner are teaching on certain aspects of the Pathway to Salvation.

Christ presents the parable in Mat 13:24-30 and then later, He personally explains it to the Apostles with another parable (Mat 13:36-40).

Here is a short summary of the meaning of the parable:

Mankind is the field in the world. When Christ comes to us the first time with the Early Rain of the Spirit (what Paul received on the Damascus Road), Christ plants His seed of the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth) within us. When the seed grows into Wheat (child of God), it will be READY FOR THE HARVEST.

However, at the time Christ plants His seed within us, Christ leaves us carnally minded & spiritually blind and we cannot understand the truth of God (Mark 8:21-25). The Word of God remains veiled from our understanding.

Soon after we receive the Early Rain of the Spirit, Satan comes to us at night (our time of spiritual blindness) and plants His seed (spirit of anti-Christ, lies and deceptions) within us, too. When his seed grows into a Tare (child of the Devil, Man of Sin), it will be ready for the JUDGMENT OF CHRIST (burned by fire, Day of the Lord).

As a result of both the child of God (Wheat) and the child of the Devil (Tare) living within us, we mix Faith (which is what the child of God walks by) with Works (which is what a child of the Devil walks by). This mixture causes us to fall away because we cannot serve two masters (Mat 6:24). This event is the Abomination of Desolation and is the sin that leads to death.

Once we have fallen away from the truth, we cannot be renewed by repentance (Heb 6:4-6). Our only hope for salvation is for Christ to come to us a second time. He does so when the Wheat is ready to be harvested. This time of harvest is the second coming of Christ when He gives us the Latter Rain of the Spirit. It is the same event that the Apostles received in the Upper Room and the same event Paul experienced after being blind and in Damascus for three days. This event is also called the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

At the time of the harvest (Latter Rain), Christ heals our spiritual blindness. The child of the Devil (Man of Sin) will then be revealed to us and judged (burned by fire, Day of the Lord). The Man of Sin is destroyed by the brightness of Christ's appearance (2Thes 2:8). Now, for the first time, we can understand the truth of God’s Word. After the Tares (child of the Devil) are burned (judged), the child of God will be harvested. This is conversion.

Most of the teachings of Christ in the Gospels and the teachings of the Apostles are interconnected and they teach on the Pathway to Salvation. They use many different analogies but they all teach on the same subject. They are NOT teaching on future coming world events. They are teaching on the end-time of the child of the Devil (mankind) who is destroyed at a person’s moment of conversion.

Also, the teachings on the Pathway to Salvation are taught in bits & pieces with a "little here and a little there". The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares is no exception.

Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue (Christ's spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

The Pathway to Salvation is a long and difficult journey. It starts with the Early Rain of the Spirit when an unbeliever is called out from the world. But because the new believer’s spiritual blindness was not healed by Christ at that time, Satan was able to easily deceive them. From Satan’s deceptions, the believer falls away and loses their salvation (Abomination of Desolation).

The called out believer unknowingly eats Satan’s leavened bread (Mat 13:33). However, if they are one of Christ's chosen First Fruits (the Elect), Christ will come to them a second time and give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. At that point, they are converted and born again. In other words, their old vessel (child of the Devil) is destroyed and their new vessel (child of God), which “seemed good to the potter to make”, is created:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Joe

 

[Davy]

Our Lord in the first part of His Second Advent comes in a similar manner, unknown to the world.

That above idea that Christ's coming will be "unknown to the world" IS NOT WRITTEN.

You are speculating, and going OUTSIDE THE SCRIPTURES with your speculation.

Matt 24:27-30
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
KJV



Rev 1:7
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
KJV



Rev 6:14-17
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
KJV

 

[Davy]

For those who want the TRUE meaning about Christ's metaphor of the 'thief' breaking in as a SIGN of HOW Jesus' future coming will be, here it is...

The idea is actually first given back in the Old Testament prophets with how God ending this present world suddenly, at an instant. (see Book of Isaiah).

The Old Testament prophets (like Isaiah) is where Apostles Paul and Peter were pulling from about the sudden destruction that is to happen on the "day of the Lord" with Christ's future coming (see Zechariah 14 also).

In 1 Thessalonians 5, right after Paul had covered events of Christ's future return and gathering of the Church in 1 Thessalonians 4, this next 5th chapter Paul gave us some time markers about that day of Christ's future return.

1 Thess 5:1-4
5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
KJV

That idea in red above Apostle Paul is pulling from Scripture like Isaiah 29 and Isaiah 30 about God coming destruction of the surface of this earth by His consuming fire on the "day of the Lord". That 'day'... is what Paul is revealing that will come as a SURPRISE upon the deceived who will be instead saying what??

Did you see that "Peace and safety" Paul says 'they', the deceived, will be saying? And then the "sudden destruction" will come upon them, AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT.

Lord Jesus gave the Signs of the 'end' leading up to that day of His coming, they are found in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. He gave us to be WATCHING THOSE SIGNS HE GAVE His faithful Church, so that day WOULD NOT BE TO US AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT!

So did you GET that brethren, what Paul said above in the 1 Thessalonians 5:4 verse?? That day is NOT to overtake us as a thief! Those who try to use that 'as a thief' idea as if Jesus' coming will be a surprise to us don't know what they are talking about. They instead listen to deceivers in their own churches.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I suppose, if one were to consider "bad exegesis" as "anything that isn't what I believe." Then I understand.

Well I don't, but what you have proposed does not follow the flow and pattern of Scripture as far as the trumpets and seals go.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You said:
Well you are part of the church so can we assume what you teach is completely false? what you teach falls under the blanket of covenant amillenial eschatology. which redefines so many passages of scripture with spiritual meaning.

All of scripture is written in the spiritual language of Christ. Until a person can understand that language, scripture is going to remain "veiled".

So you are a gnostic then and think the truth is hidden in a spiritual language- that is heresy! All this is,
is an agenda to get people to come to you to "define" scriptures instead of what is written.

You are not eh first, and won't be the last who say this. Why should we trust you more than the others who say the same as you and disagree on many points with you ? Why should I not accept the inspired writer, writing to simple people who do not need mystic talents to read between teh lines. that is all you are doing.

I spent the first 44 years of my life in the "church" in an unknowingly fallen away and deceived spiritual condition. Then, on Oct 8th, 2005, Christ came to me a second time and poured out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon me while I was at home. After that event, I have never fellowshipped with any church again. There simply are no churches which teach the truth of Christ. The churches have all been devoured by the wolves which Paul said would come shortly after his departing. This is the apostasy Paul said would come (2Thes 2:3). Nothing has changed in the church since that time.

Then you are a rogue rebel christian living in disobedience to God! If you have been given a gift as you allege you should be anxious to go top the churches to preach this truth. That is what Paul , the other apostles and disciples did.

You are simply living in spiritual pride and outside of the will and grace of God.

Heb. 10:

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

YOu judge your brothers and sisters and imply they are unsaved. You say you have been given special revelation (latter rain) like so many others who profess like you do but draw differing conclusions form the latter rain that fell on them.

You are simply disobedient and haughty!~

YOu need to assemble your self all the more, and you withdraw by insulting your brothers and sisters in christ! shame on you!

 

[FaithWillDo]

Then you are a rogue rebel Christian living in disobedience to God! If you have been given a gift as you allege you should be anxious to go top the churches to preach this truth. That is what Paul , the other apostles and disciples did.

Dear Mr. Nolette,
No, you are wrong about me. I am a very humble person who relies upon God for my every breath. He is the One who opened by eyes and gave me the gift of salvation. I was no better than any other person who had ever lived before He converted me - and this includes Judas who betrayed Christ.

Before I was converted, I believed very much like you and the others on this forum. I believed in free will and hell and all the other orthodox doctrines. I even taught end-time prophecy in my church and understood it much like everyone else.

But unknown to me, I was spiritually blind and under Satan's deceptions. I was utterly and totally deceived. While I was in that spiritual condition, I became a Man of Sin who was blaspheming the name of Christ in the world.

I can still remember teaching about hell to one young lady and assuring her that she would end up there if she didn't do her part to be saved. I believed that Christ would actually harm His enemies in that manner and it pleased me that He would. After all, I believed that I did my part to be saved and if others don't, then they deserve to be cast into fire and be tormented for all eternity. I was taught by my church "that's justice!"

But now that I can see the truth, I think back about who I was then and I want to vomit. I thank the Lord often for forgiving me of my blasphemy and for opening my eyes to the truth.

After Christ gave me "eyes that can see", I came out from Satan's deceptions. And as scripture says, the Man of Sin was revealed to me and he was the one who was looking back at me in the mirror. I saw the Abomination of Desolation and when I did, I fled to the mountains because I knew that judgment was coming. When it came, the Man of Sin was destroyed and I knew my life was never going to be the same again. That day had all the spiritual earthquakes, thunder, lightning and trumpets mentioned in scripture. Unless a person has experienced the unveiling of Christ within them, they can't know the joy and love that takes over you. On that day, my love and faith in Christ soared and has grown every day since then.

Scripture says that Christ loves His enemies and will do all that is necessary to spiritually change them into one of His children. Scripture also says that He is not willing that anyone perish (the true penalty of sin):

2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Christ is mankind's God and He can do anything that He chooses to do. If Christ is not willing that anyone perish, then who is going to stop Him from saving us all? Can mankind's supposed "free will" stop him? Not hardly. But of course, the Man of Sin (who I used to be) believes that he can, and not only that, the Man of Sin believes that his "free will" ability can even thwart the will of God. From God's point of view, the Man of Sin sits in God's temple (a fallen away believer) and claims to be God.

However, mankind's will is no match for the power and love of Christ.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Christ will do all that He said He would do for mankind. And that includes saving us all:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Here is what scripture actually teaches about whether or not mankind has a "free will":

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Mankind has a "will" but it is not free. God controls every aspect of mankind, so much so, that nothing happens in this world without Him being the cause of it happening.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

And this certainly includes all the evil in the world, too:

Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

Job 2:10 But he said to her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. We have also received good from God, and should we not receive evil? In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

I have faith to believe these scriptures, do you?

And when it comes to understanding the truth of God's Word, I believe Christ when He says His truth is hidden from mankind and that He alone chooses whom to reveal it.

1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a MYSTERY (means that it is concealed), even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Isa 28: 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Even with "eyes that can see", the truth of God's Word is difficult to find and when a person finds it, it is like finding hidden treasure:

Prov 2:1 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, 2 making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; 3 yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, 4 if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

Have you ever considered what this verse below is actually saying?

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity (the world) in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

Mankind is blinded from knowing God and His work by their carnality. Until Christ takes away a person's carnality, they cannot know Him or understand His Word. And Christ only takes away a person's carnality when He converts them with the Latter Rain of the Spirit. Once converted, the person is a new child of God who can understand and know Christ. They are no longer a part of mankind. They have become a new creation. Then and only then, will Christ come out from behind the cloud and reveal Himself.

Carnal mankind cannot know Christ and they never will. The truth of scripture is given only to those who have be given "eyes that can see" (the converted Elect). For everyone else, scripture is given to them so that they will "fall backward and be broken". It broke me, too but because of the grace of God, Christ came and healed my brokenness.

What Christ did for me, He will do for all mankind someday. He has a plan to accomplish it, but "everyman in his own order":

1Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first-fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming (the Elect). 24 Then cometh the consummation (everyone else), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Joe

 

[GRACE ambassador]

I am a very humble person who relies upon God for my every breath...Joe

Amen, and,
Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome to the Board.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided! (+ I and II!)

Grace, Peace, And JOY!…

ChrisE

 

[FaithWillDo]

Amen, and,
Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome to the Board.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided! (+ I and II!)

Grace, Peace, And JOY!…

ChrisE

Dear ChrisE,
Thank you for your warm greeting.
Joe

 

[RR144]

That above idea that Christ's coming will be "unknown to the world" IS NOT WRITTEN.

You are speculating, and going OUTSIDE THE SCRIPTURES with your speculation.

Matt 24:27-30
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
KJV

Jesus declares that as the natural sun manifests its presence by the natural light which it gives out, so He would manifest His Second Presence by the symbolic light, Truth, that He would at that time give out. This is Jesus' statement of the case in Matt. 24:27 (see also Luke 17:24, where again the words "in his day" are paralleled with the expression "coming"—Greek, presence—in Matt. 24:27), though an unhappy translation of the Greek word astrape by "lightning" instead of "bright shining" (Luke 11:36) veils the thought of the passage: "For as the lightning [bright shining—the sun] cometh forth from the east, and shineth even unto the west, so shall be the presence [margin] of the Son of man" (ASV).

It is not, as the translation suggests, a peculiarity of the lightning to come out of the east and flash even to the west, for it more frequently comes from other directions and usually flashes over only a part of the heavens and that often in other directions than the west. But it is a peculiarity of the sunlight to always come from the east and shine even to the west. These facts show that in this passage, as in Luke 11:36, the Greek word astrape should be rendered "bright shining" or "light"; for manifestly in the latter passage the word "lightning" would be an improper translation; for we do not catch lightning and put it on a candlestick!

Understanding our Lord in Matt. 24:27 to refer to the bright shining of the sun, we can readily see the comparison that He makes: that as the sun manifests its presence gradually and that to some sooner than to others and finally before reaching the west, even to the latest sleepers; so our Lord manifests His Presence by the light of Truth that He as the Sun of Righteousness emits (Mal. 4:2), first shining upon His watchful and early-awake Church (Isa. 60:1, 2) and then later upon the whole world (Isa. 60:3; John 1:9). Matt. 24:27 therefore implies that men will recognize our Lord's presence, not by natural sight, but by their eyes of understanding, recognizing Him as present by the light of Truth that He sheds upon them. Therefore this passage implies that His Return is invisible to mankind's physical eyes.

Rev 1:7
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
KJV

If we would interpret the "clouds" of this passage literally we would make the passage teach nonsense, and if we would interpret the expression "every eye" in this passage as applying to literal, physical eyes we would make it contradict 1 Tim. 6:16 and John 14:19. It goes without saying that reverence for God's Word should withhold us from interpreting Scriptures contradictorily of one another.

How may we interpret this and similar passages and preserve the harmony of the Bible? We answer, evidently 1 Tim. 6:16 and John 14:19 are literal and refer to literal sight; hence the eyes of Rev. 1:7 and the looking of Zech 12:10 must be figurative and refer to mental sight—with the eyes of understanding. Evidently these verses, therefore, mean that our Lord's Second Presence will be accompanied with clouds of trouble and that the eyes of understanding in all people, including the Jews, will be opened to a proper knowledge of Him, as Savior, Messiah and Lord. In this sense of seeing, the Apostle Paul says, "We see Jesus" (Heb. 2:9). Certainly he does not mean that we see Him with our physical eyes, but rather with our eyes of understanding, our mental eyes.

Not only the reasonableness of the above interpretation, and the Scriptural usage in other passages, but also the character of the book of Revelation warrants it. Rev. 1:1 shows that it is a book of symbols: "He sent and signified (signified) it"—gave it in signs or symbols.

Therefore it would be natural to interpret the clouds, eye and seeing of Rev. 1:7 and the looking of Zech. 12:10 symbolically. The reference made in these passages to the Jews who pierced Him as seeing Him clinches the matter; for Jesus told them on the Wednesday before His crucifixion, hence two days before the Jews last saw Him with their physical eyes, that they would no more see Him until at His Second Advent they would hail Him with the acclamation, "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Matt. 23:39; compare Zech. 12:10). This passage proves that the natural sight is not meant here, because they saw Him with their natural eyes two days after He uttered these words, that is, on the day of His crucifixion. Therefore mental sight is here meant, and this shows how those who pierced Him would see Him during His Second Advent, i.e., not with their physical eyes, but with their mental eyes.

We further know this because Jesus two days before, i.e., on the day of His triumphal entry into Jerusalem four days before His death, had pronounced mental blindness upon them for their sins (Luke 19:42, 44), and the Apostle Paul assured us that such blindness would continue with them until the full number of the Gentile elect would be won (Rom. 11:7-10, 25-33). Then, at the Second Advent, it would gradually be removed. When the final phase of trouble comes upon the regathered Jewish nation, as described in Ezek. 38; 39; Zech. 14:1-3, they through this great cloud of trouble will come to see by mental sight (just as Christians now do—Gal. 3:1; Heb. 2:9), that Jesus is indeed their Divine Savior, Messiah and Lord (Zech. 12:9, 10). This will be the time of Israel's national conversion.

A passage very similar in sense and method of interpretation to Rev. 1:7 and Zech. 12:10 is Matt. 26:64. These passages from the standpoint above presented harmonize with the clear statements of 1 Tim. 6:16 and John 14:19, and, so viewed, prove that our Lord's Return would be invisible to mankind's physical eyes, though discernible by their mental eyes.

RR

 

[VCO]

1 Corinthians 12:13 (HCSB)
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—
whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—
and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

That has nothing to do with Tongues, but we are immersed into the one Spiritual Body of CHRIST.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Well I don't, but what you have proposed does not follow the flow and pattern of Scripture as far as the trumpets and seals go.

Does the Lord not return at the Seventh Trumpet? I think he does.

 

[Davy]

Jesus declares that as the natural sun manifests its presence by the natural light which it gives out, so He would manifest His Second Presence by the symbolic light, Truth, that He would at that time give out.

Jesus declared no such idea as your saying with His example of how His coming will be.

His idea that 'lightning' (not sunlight!) coming out of the east, and shinning unto the west, is symbolic of a flash of lightning going across the sky, and really fast, the speed of the flash even representing symbolically His appearing and end of this world happening at an instant suddenly as written in the Book of Isaiah about that future day. It is about the event Apostle Paul even described metaphorically with the end of this world coming on the "last trump" 'at the twinkling of an eye' per 1 Cor.15.

This is Jesus' statement of the case in Matt. 24:27 (see also Luke 17:24, where again the words "in his day" are paralleled with the expression "coming"—Greek, presence—in Matt. 24:27), though an unhappy translation of the Greek word astrape by "lightning" instead of "bright shining" (Luke 11:36) veils the thought of the passage: "For as the lightning [bright shining—the sun] cometh forth from the east, and shineth even unto the west, so shall be the presence [margin] of the Son of man" (ASV).

Nah... Jesus was talking about a lightning bolt shining across the sky. That's what it means.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Dear Mr. Nolette,
No, you are wrong about me. I am a very humble person who relies upon God for my every breath. He is the One who opened by eyes and gave me the gift of salvation. I was no better than any other person who had ever lived before He converted me - and this includes Judas who betrayed Christ.

Before I was converted, I believed very much like you and the others on this forum. I believed in free will and hell and all the other orthodox doctrines. I even taught end-time prophecy in my church and understood it much like everyone else.

But unknown to me, I was spiritually blind and under Satan's deceptions. I was utterly and totally deceived. While I was in that spiritual condition, I became a Man of Sin who was blaspheming the name of Christ in the world.

I can still remember teaching about hell to one young lady and assuring her that she would end up there if she didn't do her part to be saved. I believed that Christ would actually harm His enemies in that manner and it pleased me that He would. After all, I believed that I did my part to be saved and if others don't, then they deserve to be cast into fire and be tormented for all eternity. I was taught by my church "that's justice!"

But now that I can see the truth, I think back about who I was then and I want to vomit. I thank the Lord often for forgiving me of my blasphemy and for opening my eyes to the truth.

After Christ gave me "eyes that can see", I came out from Satan's deceptions. And as scripture says, the Man of Sin was revealed to me and he was the one who was looking back at me in the mirror. I saw the Abomination of Desolation and when I did, I fled to the mountains because I knew that judgment was coming. When it came, the Man of Sin was destroyed and I knew my life was never going to be the same again. That day had all the spiritual earthquakes, thunder, lightning and trumpets mentioned in scripture. Unless a person has experienced the unveiling of Christ within them, they can't know the joy and love that takes over you. On that day, my love and faith in Christ soared and has grown every day since then.

Scripture says that Christ loves His enemies and will do all that is necessary to spiritually change them into one of His children. Scripture also says that He is not willing that anyone perish (the true penalty of sin):

2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Christ is mankind's God and He can do anything that He chooses to do. If Christ is not willing that anyone perish, then who is going to stop Him from saving us all? Can mankind's supposed "free will" stop him? Not hardly. But of course, the Man of Sin (who I used to be) believes that he can, and not only that, the Man of Sin believes that his "free will" ability can even thwart the will of God. From God's point of view, the Man of Sin sits in God's temple (a fallen away believer) and claims to be God.

However, mankind's will is no match for the power and love of Christ.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Christ will do all that He said He would do for mankind. And that includes saving us all:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Here is what scripture actually teaches about whether or not mankind has a "free will":

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?



I have faith to believe these scriptures, do you?

And when it comes to understanding the truth of God's Word, I believe Christ when He says His truth is hidden from mankind and that He alone chooses whom to reveal it.

1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a MYSTERY (means that it is concealed), even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Isa 28: 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Even with "eyes that can see", the truth of God's Word is difficult to find and when a person finds it, it is like finding hidden treasure:

Prov 2:1 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, 2 making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; 3 yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, 4 if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

Have you ever considered what this verse below is actually saying?

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity (the world) in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

Mankind is blinded from knowing God and His work by their carnality. Until Christ takes away a person's carnality, they cannot know Him or understand His Word. And Christ only takes away a person's carnality when He converts them with the Latter Rain of the Spirit. Once converted, the person is a new child of God who can understand and know Christ. They are no longer a part of mankind. They have become a new creation. Then and only then, will Christ come out from behind the cloud and reveal Himself.

Carnal mankind cannot know Christ and they never will. The truth of scripture is given only to those who have be given "eyes that can see" (the converted Elect). For everyone else, scripture is given to them so that they will "fall backward and be broken". It broke me, too but because of the grace of God, Christ came and healed my brokenness.

What Christ did for me, He will do for all mankind someday. He has a plan to accomplish it, but "everyman in his own order":

1Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first-fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming (the Elect). 24 Then cometh the consummation (everyone else), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Joe

YOu write all this and I see you taught from many false starting points which is why you came to false conclusions.

The vast majority of mankind is going to end up in the lake of fire- That is Gods Word and not mans.

I am a new creation in Christ! so aren't millions of others on earth!

But I am sorry you ignore this verse to your own cutting off of fellowship with god:

Ephesians 4:

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

As long as you choose to cut yourself off from assembling with your fellow saints in a local assembly under a pastor teacher who is there to mature you- You are a disobedient, rogue, rebellious Christian whom God will not use for the work of the kingdom.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Does the Lord not return at the Seventh Trumpet? I think he does.

You may think that. But if you believe that, then you have a huge problem. for you have God the Father pouring out the seven vials of judgment on earth after Jesus returns and begins reigning and you have the antichrist marshaling g his forces from humanity to fight jesus who has already established his kingdom.

 

[Davy]

You may think that. But if you believe that, then you have a huge problem. for you have God the Father pouring out the seven vials of judgment on earth after Jesus returns and begins reigning and you have the antichrist marshaling g his forces from humanity to fight jesus who has already established his kingdom.

Uh... what?!?

Jesus' literal physical Kingdom is NOT of this present world...

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence."
KJV

Christ's Kingdom is only manifested on earth through the Spirit in us. A Church building and lawn here on earth today only represents like an 'outpost' in enemy territory. Until Lord Jesus returns, His Kingdom will not be established here on earth.

And Lord Jesus thru John in Revelation DID reveal that His future return is ON the 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial. And His Church will go through the "great tribulation", which is why He gave His faithful Church the main Signs of the end leading up to His return, per His Olivet discourse and His Book of Revelation.

 

[FaithWillDo]

YOu write all this and I see you taught from many false starting points which is why you came to false conclusions.

The vast majority of mankind is going to end up in the lake of fire- That is Gods Word and not mans.

I am a new creation in Christ! so aren't millions of others on earth!

But I am sorry you ignore this verse to your own cutting off of fellowship with god:

Ephesians 4:

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

As long as you choose to cut yourself off from assembling with your fellow saints in a local assembly under a pastor teacher who is there to mature you- You are a disobedient, rogue, rebellious Christian whom God will not use for the work of the kingdom.

Dear Mr. Nolette:

You said:
The vast majority of mankind is going to end up in the lake of fire- That is Gods Word and not mans.

The Lake of Fire is a symbol for the judgment of Christ. It is not eternal nor is it literal fire. From that judgment, Christ will save all mankind:

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Jer 4:2 And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory.

Mankind, however, does not understand the judgment of Christ:

Prov 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Mankind believes that judgment has no loving purpose to it and that it is not redeeming. However, Christ's judgment is not like mankind's judgment and neither will He pervert it:

Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

When Christ's judgments are manifested in the world, all mankind will come and worship Him:

Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This is a related verse:

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Christ's judgment is for removing mankind's carnality. In other words, it purifies us. After our carnality is destroyed by fire, it will be replaced by the Spirit which will give us a new nature. This is called "conversion". After all mankind is converted, they will all confess Jesus as Lord and will freely bow down and worship Him, to the glory of the Father.

Finally, I do not cut myself off from other believers who walk in the light of truth. However, in this world, they are very "few" in number. Those "few" cannot fellowship with believers who walk in darkness. There is a great gulf fixed in between the two. Those in darkness dwell on the earth and those in light dwell in heaven.

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Joe

 

[CadyandZoe]

You may think that. But if you believe that, then you have a huge problem. for you have God the Father pouring out the seven vials of judgment on earth after Jesus returns and begins reigning and you have the antichrist marshaling g his forces from humanity to fight jesus who has already established his kingdom.

Again assuming your interpretation as correct, that would be the logical conclusion.

 

[Earburner]

The thought implied in this verse is that our Lord's Return would be thief-like in its manner (1 Thes. 5:1-6; 2 Pet. 3:10; Rev. 16:15). When a thief comes to break into a house, does he carry a bright light and blow a trumpet, shouting to the people, "Hello, you people! Wake up! I am coming to rob your houses"? Of course we know he does no such things. Neither, therefore, does our Lord when He returns as a thief in the night. The thief in the night comes silently, stealthily, hiding in the dark, walking noiselessly with padded shoes or in stocking feet, picking locks and opening doors or windows with quiet deftness, thus concealing his presence from his unsuspecting victims.

Our Lord in the first part of His Second Advent comes in a similar manner, unknown to the world. But as a thief's presence in the house that is being robbed may by certain signs be made known to his accomplices who may be awaiting him in or at that particular house, so the Lord promised to make known, after His Return, to His faithful watching people, the fact of His Return by certain signs and proofs (Matt. 24:3, 30-33).

Note how 1 Thes. 5:1-6 tells us that the world would not be aware of our Lord's Return, because of its thief-like manner, but that His waking and watchful people would be aware of it. Of course, if the world would see His Return with their physical eyes, they would be aware of it. So their not being aware of it proves that they would not see Him physically in His Second Advent, which therefore must be invisible to physical sight.

To some degree, I can follow your understanding, but it is incomplete.

I discern and perceive that there are THREE manifestations of Jesus' comings.
1. In the likeness of our flesh to Israel first- PAST.
2. Since Pentecost, by His Holy Spirit, to all the world, to believe in Him or not- PRESENT.
3. In the Visible Glory of His return, in His immortality from Heaven- FUTURE.