The book of Enoch?

[justaname]

Jude 14

It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,
15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”
Jude refers to a prophesy given by Enoch, but where is this coming from? Oral tradition or another written text, that we may or may not have. What do you think, is this a text to believed of disregarded?

 

[Stefcui]

Jude refers to a prophesy given by Enoch, but where is this coming from?

Hi Justaname,

There are three Enoch books, but only one of them is the actual book in question. It is commonly known as 1 Enoch. The other two books are what are called pseudepigrapha; which are people writing under the pseudonym of Enoch. These books, 2 Enoch and 3 Enoch, are magic books. I wouldn't recommend them.

There are many books like Enoch. Even in our bibles we have Jesus quoting from the Book of Tobit, which is part of the Apocrypha in the Septuagint bibles.

Personally, I really really like Enoch. I even believe it is authentic and inspired. My son is reading it at the moment. It has always existed in the bible of the Ethiopian Jews and Christians. Enoch was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls; so the same copy that Jude quoted from is still available today. There are copies in Greek, Hebrew, Syrian and Ethiopian. I prefer the translation by Richard Lawrence. The verse you quoted from Jude is found in Enoch chapter 2.

http://www.sacred-te...b/bep/bep02.htm

The Book of Enoch is the story of the Angels coming down before the flood. The reference of Azazel in Leviticus 16:8,10, 26 (ASV; ERV) is the name of the Angel whom led the rebellion. Enoch was sent to speak to these Angels a message from God. There are many prophecies that are spoken for our time.

There are many verses in the bible that quote from Enoch, either by words or by expressions. Many today would never read Enoch; yet they will read a novel, or the Koran, or watch a sitcom. We have strange ideas on what is acceptable and unacceptable.

I hope this helps

God Bless
Steve

 

[aspen]

Under the heading of canonicity, it is not enough to merely demonstrate that something is quoted (or Paul's quotation of Epimenides's "All Cretans are liars" in Titus 1:12 would grant canonicity to the works of Epimenides). Instead, it is necessary to demonstrate the nature of the quotation.[sup][16][/sup] In the case of the Jude 14 quotation of 1 Enoch 1:9, it would be difficult to argue that Jude does not quote Enoch since he cites Enoch by name. However, there remains a question as to whether the author of Jude attributed the quotation believing the source to be the historical Enoch before the flood or amidrash of Deut 33:2-3.[sup][17][/sup][sup][18][/sup][sup][19][/sup] The Greek text is also unusual in stating that "Enoch the Seventh from Adam" prophesied "to" (dative case) not "of" (genitive case) the men.[sup][20][/sup]

 

[Stefcui]

Under the heading of canonicity, it is not enough to merely demonstrate that something is quoted...

This is true, and Enoch should only be read with keeping this in mind. I personally think the Enoch book is genuine, but that does not mean we can gather our doctrines and beliefs from it. We need to use wisdom and caution. It can only complement existing biblical teachings; not compete against them. There are many other books, though, that are worthy of reading. The books of Maccabees are important readings; they give us an insight of who the Pharisees were, and how certain NT customs developed, like the Festival of Lights. Judith is also great. Sirach is amazing... These books were read by the earliest churches, and they have been found in the earliest canons. Christians today are generally less educated than Christians 1900 years ago. Most of our modern understanding of prophecy, for instance, comes from the early teacher known as Hippolytus. He wrote commentaries on Daniel and Revelation which ideas are found in almost every church today. He is mostly unknown by name to most modern readers.

Steve

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I don't believe the book of Enoch is original or fully inspired for mainly this reason:

CHAP. VII. [SECT. II.]
1. It happened after the sons of men had multiplied in those days, that daughters were born to them, elegant and beautiful.
2. And when the angels, the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamoured of them, saying to each other, Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children.

 

[Stefcui]

I don't believe the book of Enoch is original or fully inspired for mainly this reason:

I don't understand what your point is... They are not really angels? The sons of heaven refer to Adams descendants?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I don't understand what your point is... They are not really angels? The sons of heaven refer to Adams descendants?

If what you say is true I stand corrected. But I'm not so sure. Giants 450 feet tall? Not a believer yet.

 

[Stefcui]

Some things in Enoch were altered... this is true. As you know, the same thing can be said about the Masoretic or the LXX.

If you were to use an error in Enoch as the reason why it is not genuine; you could also use the same logic to prove that the bible is not genuine. One Early Church Father mentioned that Enoch had been altered in the 3[sup]rd[/sup] or 4[sup]th[/sup] century AD. How much was it altered? I don’t know. There are no references to giants of 450 feet, as far as I know (i'm going by memory). Noah was said to be a giant; but I expect that last chapter was altered.

The explanation of evil spirits seems to be used by Christ. Enoch says that when the angels had offspring with females; some were physical human giants, and some were invisible evil spirits. The evil spirits in the world today are not demons; they are the offspring of demons; and these two classes also have discord with each other.

Also, there is implication that the dinosaurs could be offspring of the demons. Demons not only mated with human females; but also with all kinds of animal females. This produced giants among the animal kingdoms as well. This sounds far-fetched until you discover all of the giant animal fossils around the world.

It is not required reading; so I do not tell people to go and read it to find salvation. It is a book which is more of academic interest.

Steve

 

[aspen]

I've read most of the common jewish pseudepigrapha - it is interesting to read about what was important to the Jewish people during the time the books were written.

I also think the Dead Sea Scrolls and the gnostic writings - especially the apocalyptic writings are very interesting! It is great to learn about the Gnostics from their writings rather than simply relying on the Church Father's apologetic condemnation.

 

[justaname]

Some things in Enoch were altered... this is true. As you know, the same thing can be said about the Masoretic or the LXX. If you were to use an error in Enoch as the reason why it is not genuine; you could also use the same logic to prove that the bible is not genuine. One Early Church Father mentioned that Enoch had been altered in the 3[sup]rd[/sup] or 4[sup]th[/sup] century AD. How much was it altered? I don’t know. There are no references to giants of 450 feet, as far as I know (i'm going by memory). Noah was said to be a giant; but I expect that last chapter was altered. The explanation of evil spirits seems to be used by Christ. Enoch says that when the angels had offspring with females; some were physical human giants, and some were invisible evil spirits. The evil spirits in the world today are not demons; they are the offspring of demons; and these two classes also have discord with each other. Also, there is implication that the dinosaurs could be offspring of the demons. Demons not only mated with human females; but also with all kinds of animal females. This produced giants among the animal kingdoms as well. This sounds far-fetched until you discover all of the giant animal fossils around the world. It is not required reading; so I do not tell people to go and read it to find salvation. It is a book which is more of academic interest. Steve

Who is this "early church father"?

 

[Lively Stone]

Question: "What is the book of Enoch and should it be in the Bible?"

Answer: The Book of Enoch is any of several pseudepigraphal (falsely attributed works, texts whose claimed authorship is unfounded) works that attribute themselves to Enoch, the great-grandfather of Noah; that is, Enoch son of Jared (Genesis 5:18). Enoch is also one of the two people in the Bible taken up to heaven without dying (the other being Elijah), as the Bible says "And Enoch walked with God, and he was not; for God took him." (Genesis 5:24; see also Hebrews 11:5). Most commonly, the phrase "Book of Enoch" refers to 1 Enoch, which is wholly extant only in the Ethiopic language.

The biblical book of Jude quotes from the Book of Enoch in verses 14-15, “Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: ‘See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.’” But this does not mean the Book of Enoch is inspired by God and should be in the Bible.

Jude’s quote is not the only quote in the Bible from a non-biblical source. The Apostle Paul quotes Epimenides in Titus 1:12 but that does not mean we should give any additional authority to Epimenides’ writings. The same is true with Jude, verse 14. Jude quoting from the book of Enoch in Jude verse 9 does not indicate the entire book is inspired, or even true. All it means is that particular verse is true. It is interesting to note that no scholars believe the Book of Enoch to have truly been written by the Enoch in the Bible. Enoch was seven generations from Adam, prior to the Flood (Genesis 5:1-24). Evidently, though, this was genuinely something that Enoch prophesied – or the Bible would not attribute it to him, “Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men…” (Jude 14). This saying of Enoch was evidently handed down by tradition, and eventually recorded in the Book of Enoch.

We should treat the Book of Enoch (and the other books like it) in the same manner we do the other Apocryphal writings. Some of what the Apocrypha says is true and correct, but at the same time, much of it is false and historically inaccurate. If you read these books, you have to treat them as interesting but fallible historical documents, not as the inspired, authoritative Word of God.

http://www.gotquesti...k-of-Enoch.html

 

[veteran]

Yet we still have the quote from the reference from Enoch within the Book of Jude documenting that the fallen angels went after flesh woman per the Genesis 6 account.

Jude 1:6-7
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
(KJV)

That's why those who refuse to believe the Gen.6 event involved angels mating with flesh women have gone outside Scripture to serve some agenda of man.

 

[Lively Stone]

Jude 1:6-7 doesn't refer to anything like angels consorting with humans sexually.

[sup]6[/sup] And I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged. God has kept them securely chained in prisons of darkness, waiting for the great day of judgment. [sup]7[/sup] And don’t forget Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns, which were filled with immorality and every kind of sexual perversion. Those cities were destroyed by fire and serve as a warning of the eternal fire of God’s judgment.

Those who believe the Genesis 6 event involved angels mating with flesh women have gone outside Scripture to serve some agenda of man.

 

[FHII]

Jud 1:6

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Jud 1:7

Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Seems to me that Jude was comparing the actions of the Angels to those of Sodom and Gomorrah going after "strange flesh".... Sounds like a referral to me...

Gen 6:2

That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Gen 6:3

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.

Gen 6:4

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Who were these "sons of God" then? We have "sons of God" and "daughters of men". Sounds like two different groups to me. I've heard some people say this was a mixing of Adam's/Seth's linage mixing with Cain's, but there are two problems: 1. It says the sons of God and not the sons of Cain; and 2. they produced giants, mighty men, and men of renown.

It really sounds like there was something extraordinary about the gene pool.

If you see that as "an agenda of man" and that I might get a service of some sort out of it, I don't see how. It's in the Bible and I didn't have to look at the Book of Enoch to get it.

 

[veteran]

A relevant comparison is usually what the word "as" is used for in English. The "in like manner" is another phrase there comparing the actions of Sodom and Gomorrha to what those angels did. Got even another reference to the angels with that idea of "eternal" fire, for the fire God used to destroy Sodom and Gomorrha was not an "eternal" fire which is ordained for only Satan and his angels as of right now (Matt.25:41). Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha was only an example of that future eternal fire, i.e., the "lake of fire" event of Rev.20:14-15.

Jude 1:6-7
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
(KJV)

 

[Lively Stone]

Jude 1:5-9 really says nothing about the angelic sinning in a sexual way. That is a conclusion drawn by the reader only, and is not inferred by the writer. The topic is a warning for unfaithfulness and perverse leaders.

Past history warns us that the unfaithful have mingled with the faithful

[sup]5-9[/sup] I want to remind you of something that you really know already: and although the Lord saved all the people from the land of Egypt, yet afterwards he brought to their downfall those who would not trust him. And the very angels who failed in their high duties and abandoned their proper sphere have been deprived by God of both light and liberty until the judgment of the great day. Sodom and Gomorrah and the adjacent cities who, in the same way as these men today, gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion, stand in their punishment as a permanent warning of the fire of judgment. Yet these men are defiling their bodies by their filthy fantasies in just the same way; they show utter contempt for authority and make a jest of the heavenly glories. But I would remind you that even the archangel Michael when he was contending with the devil in the dispute over the body of Moses did not dare to condemn him with mockery. He simply said, the Lord rebuke you!

 

[veteran]

Jude 1:5-9 really says nothing about the angelic sinning in a sexual way. That is a conclusion drawn by the reader only, and is not inferred by the writer. The topic is a warning for unfaithfulness and perverse leaders.

That's nothing more than an opinion based on certain later traditions of men that sought to get away from understanding the angels mating with the flesh daughters of men to produce the 'giant' hybrid race, as written in Gen.6. The Jude 1 Scripture is pointing directly ... to the events of Sodom and Gommorah with what those angels did. And one of these days, you're going to understand it really happenned.

 

[Lively Stone]

That's nothing more than an opinion based on certain later traditions of men that sought to get away from understanding the angels mating with the flesh daughters of men to produce the 'giant' hybrid race, as written in Gen.6. The Jude 1 Scripture is pointing directly ... to the events of Sodom and Gommorah with what those angels did. And one of these days, you're going to understand it really happenned.

It may be an opinion to you, but it is given to me by Holy Spirit. One of these days I will not even give a hoot, and that starts today. There are far more important matters than nebulous concepts of scripture that some men like to hang their hats on.

 

[veteran]

It may be an opinion to you, but it is given to me by Holy Spirit. One of these days I will not even give a hoot, and that starts today. There are far more important matters than nebulous concepts of scripture that some men like to hang their hats on.

Yes, there are far more important things, and one of them is about staying within God's Word as written, even when it reveals something that those with a worldy fleshy mind cannot comprehend.

 

[Lively Stone]

Yes, there are far more important things, and one of them is about staying within God's Word as written, even when it reveals something that those with a worldy fleshy mind cannot comprehend.

I agree, yet there is no revelation about this except what man's dramatized mind wants to think.