More biblical proof that supports Amillennialism

[Randy Kluth]

Amillennialists do not force a bias preconceived notion upon the sacred text. Each passage, chapter and book should be approached recognizing its proper sense and setting. That may be hyper-literal, highly-symbolic, hyperbolic, parabolic, poetic or apocalyptic. But the context and ambience of the location should assist us in determining the overall thrust of the text. What is more, a good knowledge of other relevant Scripture, should reinforce what the sense and setting is telling us. That helps us in interpreting the Bible as it presents itself.

Now, will you address what I wrote and stop skirting around it?

I didn't skirt around anything, and I've answered your questions. I believe in a literal chain. Why don't you answer my question? Do you believe God will use a literal chain to bind Satan or not? Or, do you believe God has already used a literal chain to bind Satan or not?

Furthermore, do you believe Satan was literally *imprisoned* or not?

 

[WPM]

I didn't skirt around anything, and I've answered your questions. I believe in a literal chain. Why don't you answer my question? Do you believe God will use a literal chain to bind Satan or not? Or, do you believe God has already used a literal chain to bind Satan or not?

Furthermore, do you believe Satan was literally *imprisoned* or not?

Yes, you did skirt around it. You never addressed my arguments.

How can you chain a spirit with a literal chain in a physical penitentiary? I never heard anything so lubricous. Satan is bound in spiritual chains in a spiritual prison and is restrained in keeping the Gentiles in darkness as before the cross. That is what Rev 20 is teaching about the intra-Advent period and the great commission.

 

[The Light]

Are you saying there will be a rapture followed by a 7 years tribulation followed by another coming of Christ?

According to the Word. Yes.

 

[WPM]

According to the Word. Yes.

Ok, so please quote the actual text that teaches this?

 

[Randy Kluth]

1. Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it say "the rule of the glorified Christ and his saints from heaven prevent the overt rebellion against God that we see in the present age"?

Rev 20.4 They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 2.26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.

I've already given you these verses. Why are you asking again? We differ on what it means to "rule" in the context of those who are potentially unruly and rebellious. The Kingdom of God, for me, is a perfect heavenly kingdom that comes out of heaven from God to impose order on the mortal earth. Those on the earth are not technically in the Kingdom yet, even though its order is being imposed. They must be born again, and then become immortal to fully enter into God's eternal Kingdom.

Much of our sense of the Kingdom of God is assumed to already be understood in the NT. But being that you consider things "Jewish" to be outmoded and irrelevant--in fact *replaced,* you do not view the Kingdom of God the way the Jews did, including the Jews who became believers in Christ.

1. Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it teach "newly-converted Christians" are left "in charge of many Christian nations promised to Abraham thousands of years ago" in some future millennium?

Zech 12.10 10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced."

This conversion of unsaved people takes place at Christ's 2nd Coming, as shown in Rev 1.7. I've already showed you this!

1. Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it teach Jesus will be "crowned king *on earth* in the promised Kingdom of God."

Rev 11.15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

I've already showed this to you.

1. Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it teach "human rebellion against God" will be "under better control than we now see it"?

Rev 20. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

1. Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it mention a "kingdom age"?

Rev 20.2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

Don't keep asking me the same questions and expect a different answer. You've not given me any convincing reason to reject the Jewish sense of the Kingdom Age, a time when Israel will no longer be oppressed by the Gentiles and would experience a final great spiritual revival. Constantly asking me the same questions over and over again gives me the sense that you're not really paying attention, but just shoveling out a programmed response.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes, you did skirt around it. You never addressed my arguments.

False. I've answered your questions. If you doubt it, go back and look.

How can you chain a spirit with a literal chain in a physical penitentiary? I never heard anything so lubricous. Satan is bound in spiritual chains in a spiritual prison and is restrained in keeping the Gentiles in darkness as before the cross. That is what Rev 20 is teaching about the intra-Advent period and the great commission.

A literal chain is one that really exists, whether it is made of metal or not. God uses a literal chain *of some kind* to literally imprison Satan for a literal thousand years.

Incidentally, you've been asking me the same questions more than once. I've already answered them. Posts 9, 69, and 74 specifically.

 

[WPM]

Rev 20.4 They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 2.26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.

I've already given you these verses. Why are you asking again? We differ on what it means to "rule" in the context of those who are potentially unruly and rebellious. The Kingdom of God, for me, is a perfect heavenly kingdom that comes out of heaven from God to impose order on the mortal earth. Those on the earth are not technically in the Kingdom yet, even though its order is being imposed. They must be born again, and then become immortal to fully enter into God's eternal Kingdom.

Much of our sense of the Kingdom of God is assumed to already be understood in the NT. But being that you consider things "Jewish" to be outmoded and irrelevant--in fact *replaced,* you do not view the Kingdom of God the way the Jews did, including the Jews who became believers in Christ.

Where in Revelation 12 & 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it say "the rule of the glorified Christ and his saints from heaven prevent the overt rebellion against God that we see in the present age"? You add your own imaginations upon the inspired text.

Zech 12.10 10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced."

This conversion of unsaved people takes place at Christ's 2nd Coming, as shown in Rev 1.7. I've already showed you this!

Rev 11.15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

I've already showed this to you.

Rev 20. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

Rev 20.2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

Don't keep asking me the same questions and expect a different answer. You've not given me any convincing reason to reject the Jewish sense of the Kingdom Age, a time when Israel will no longer be oppressed by the Gentiles and would experience a final great spiritual revival. Constantly asking me the same questions over and over again gives me the sense that you're not really paying attention, but just shoveling out a programmed response.

Ok. So you have nothing. I just refuted this error and you are just repeating your evasive response. It is clear you have nothing. You make it up as you go. That is classic Premil. Your posts do not answer my questioning of your false claims. I suspect you know you have nothing. The passages above reinforce Amil.

I exposed your butchery of Zechariah 12 and you had no answer apart from admitting the NT relates it to the First Advent and unsuccessfully foisting a double meaning on the location of this event. This highlights how bereft you are of biblical support.

Whichever way you look at Rev 11 and the last trumpet, there is an unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet. This corresponds with the conclusiveness associated with Second coming passages elsewhere in Scripture. Let us look at some of the all-consummating detail.

• “the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ.”
• “he shall reign for ever and ever” – not a thousand years or for a measurable time-span.
• The time of God’s “wrath is come.”
• We have a general judgment where Christ will “give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints” and judge the wicked at the same time. He will “destroy them which destroy the earth.”
• “the mystery of God” will be “finished.”“time” shall be “no longer.”

It is hard to see how the Holy Spirit could have made it more final. All the bases are covered. All the boxes are ticked. The finishing of “the mystery of God” at the “sound of the last trumpet (trumpet 7) ushers in the end of time (chronos) and the beginning of eternity.
I will repeat the questions you cannot answer:

• Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it say "the rule of the glorified Christ and his saints from heaven prevent the overt rebellion against God that we see in the present age"?
• Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it teach "newly-converted Christians" are left "in charge of many Christian nations promised to Abraham thousands of years ago" in some future millennium?
• Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it teach Jesus will be "crowned king *on earth* in the promised Kingdom of God."
• Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it teach "human rebellion against God" will be "under better control than we now see it"?
• Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it teach "excessive sin will be restrained in the future age”?

 

[WPM]

False. I've answered your questions. If you doubt it, go back and look.

A literal chain is one that really exists, whether it is made of metal or not. God uses a literal chain *of some kind* to literally imprison Satan for a literal thousand years.

Incidentally, you've been asking me the same questions more than once. I've already answered them. Posts 9, 69, and 74 specifically.

No. You have been avoiding for multiple posts.

Scripture clearly shows the demonic kingdom to be currently in the abyss. Spirit beings are not restrained with metal chains in a brick penitentiary. This is obviously speaking about a spiritual prison that involves a spiritual restraint. The kingdom of darkness is a unitary kingdom that has been curtailed since the First Advent and the life, death and resurrection of Christ (the first resurrection).

In your doctrine you have some demons bound others loosed at the one time. Then when the bound are loosed the loosed are bound. You have the beast in and Satan out and the beast out and Satan in. This is all dysfunctional, contradictory and nonsensical. There is a serious and notable disconnect required in order to let Premil fit. It has to divorce the fate of Satan from the beast and the rest of the fallen angles even though they are all married together within the kingdom of darkness.

First, the beast/antichrist/mystery of iniquity are the same entity. second, there is only one king in the kingdom of darkness – Satan. Thirdly, Revelation involves several recapitulations. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 intra-Advent parallels. Fourthly, the demonic realm is simultaneously released at the one time. Several parallels finish with the release of the kingdom of darkness before the second coming. The locust/scorpion-type creatures are devils in Revelation 9, Satan being the lead demon.

We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second coming for a little season. This is not a coincidence. This is not a fluke. It shows the detail and corroboration of Scripture. This is something that Premil severely lacks, and why many are turning away from it. That is why Premils get so quickly frustrated in debates. They have no other biblical support for their position. When you challenge them to support their view of any given matter in Revelation 20 they amazingly quote Revelation 20 as their corroboration. They do not seem to grasp, that is not the way corroboration works!

We see in Revelation 12:3-4 when the “great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads” is cast down “his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven” with him. This sees the commencement of Christ’s glorious heavenly reign over His enemies. This shows the mirrored fate of each.

 

[The Light]

Ok, so please quote the actual text that teaches this?

I'll keep it as simple as I can. Here is the Church in heaven before the seals are opened.

Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Here is the second harvest after the tribulation and before the wrath of God.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Here is another view of the harvest that takes place at the 6th seal.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Jesus remains in the clouds and does not touch the earth. He returns to heaven with the great multitude.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

 

[Randy Kluth]

No. You have been avoiding for multiple posts.

What you're really saying is not that I haven't answered your questions, but that I haven't answered them *to your satisfaction.* And I suspect I never will, because you obviously love to fight. I don't. "Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts."

 

[Randy Kluth]

Where in Revelation 12 & 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it say "the rule of the glorified Christ and his saints from heaven prevent the overt rebellion against God that we see in the present age"? You add your own imaginations upon the inspired text.






Ok. So you have nothing. I just refuted this error and you are just repeating your evasive response. It is clear you have nothing. You make it up as you go. That is classic Premil. Your posts do not answer my questioning of your false claims. I suspect you know you have nothing. The passages above reinforce Amil.

I exposed your butchery of Zechariah 12 and you had no answer apart from admitting the NT relates it to the First Advent and unsuccessfully foisting a double meaning on the location of this event. This highlights how bereft you are of biblical support.

Whichever way you look at Rev 11 and the last trumpet, there is an unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet. This corresponds with the conclusiveness associated with Second coming passages elsewhere in Scripture. Let us look at some of the all-consummating detail.

• “the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ.”
• “he shall reign for ever and ever” – not a thousand years or for a measurable time-span.
• The time of God’s “wrath is come.”
• We have a general judgment where Christ will “give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints” and judge the wicked at the same time. He will “destroy them which destroy the earth.”
• “the mystery of God” will be “finished.”“time” shall be “no longer.”

It is hard to see how the Holy Spirit could have made it more final. All the bases are covered. All the boxes are ticked. The finishing of “the mystery of God” at the “sound of the last trumpet (trumpet 7) ushers in the end of time (chronos) and the beginning of eternity.
I will repeat the questions you cannot answer:

• Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it say "the rule of the glorified Christ and his saints from heaven prevent the overt rebellion against God that we see in the present age"?
• Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it teach "newly-converted Christians" are left "in charge of many Christian nations promised to Abraham thousands of years ago" in some future millennium?
• Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it teach Jesus will be "crowned king *on earth* in the promised Kingdom of God."
• Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it teach "human rebellion against God" will be "under better control than we now see it"?
• Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it teach "excessive sin will be restrained in the future age”?

Don't bother repeating questions I've already answered to *my own satisfaction.*

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Christ is reigning over a fallen earth now. When He comes again (at the last trumpet) He will rescue His elect and destroy His enemies. He will perfect us, and all creation. Both will be glorified. This is when the curse is lifted. Then we will have the general resurrection/judgment. This is when "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” I recognize that Full Preterists do not believe that. That is because they are heretics.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

I didn't skirt around anything, and I've answered your questions. I believe in a literal chain. Why don't you answer my question? Do you believe God will use a literal chain to bind Satan or not? Or, do you believe God has already used a literal chain to bind Satan or not?

Furthermore, do you believe Satan was literally *imprisoned* or not?

Og help!

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

According to the Word. Yes.

Og, help!

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

They must be born again, and then become immortal to fully enter into God's eternal Kingdom.

You say this as if amills don't believe it. And you knew it.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Much of our sense of the Kingdom of God is assumed to already be understood in the NT. But being that you consider things "Jewish" to be outmoded and irrelevant--in fact *replaced,* you do not view the Kingdom of God the way the Jews did, including the Jews who became believers in Christ.

<Things Jewish> like what? ALL things Jewish none of which exists nor is from or of God?

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Zech 12.10 10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced."

This conversion of unsaved people takes place at Christ's 2nd Coming, as shown in Rev 1.7. I've already showed you this!

<This conversion>? Who tells you so? You tells them.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Rev 11.15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

We see in Revelation 12:3-4 when the “great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads” is cast down “his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven” with him. This sees the commencement of Christ’s glorious heavenly reign over His enemies. This shows the mirrored fate of each.

WPM, b.r.i.l.l.i.a.n.t. !

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Here is the second harvest after the tribulation and before the wrath of God.

'They' are the "many saints" raised with Jesus' resurrection, whom He "took captive" when He ascended into heaven 40 days after He resurrected. 'They' ARE NOT Pre-mills raised in a pretrib resurrection (of Americans) raptured away secretly.