Another Premillennial absurdity

[CadyandZoe]

More heresy. More blasphemy. More nonsense. More Unitarianism.

More deflection. More avoidance.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No, you didn't explain it to me unless I missed that post. You may have explained it to someone else. Anyway, since Jesus is God He has all of the attributes of God, but you deny that. Do you understand that you try to say that Jesus is God, but deny that He has all the attributes of God, which makes no sense whatsoever? It's like saying that you're a human being, but you lack a human soul or spirit. Get out of here with your nonsense.

I'm sure I explained it to you. Let me turn this around and ask you something. Why do you think an image of God must have all the attributes of God? Do you understand the concept of "Image?"

 

[CadyandZoe]

If He wasn't 100% God then He wouldn't be God at all. Imagine someone saying that He's not 100% human. Would you find that to be a credible argument? You continue to spew complete nonsense and false teaching.

You should take responsibility for your own lack of understanding. Just admit you don't understand and ask questions. You seem to lack an understanding of transcendence. Do you know what transcendence is? Do you understand the concept of identity?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You don't seem to understand the concept of "image".

You don't seem to understand the concept of anything.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm sure I explained it to you. Let me turn this around and ask you something. Why do you think an image of God must have all the attributes of God? Do you understand the concept of "Image?"

You said before that you believe Jesus is God. Why do you lie? You don't actually believe that. In order to be God, you must have all the attributes of God. That should go without saying. But, you don't believe that about Jesus. You believe He is the image of God, but not God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You should take responsibility for your own lack of understanding. Just admit you don't understand and ask questions. You seem to lack an understanding of transcendence. Do you know what transcendence is? Do you understand the concept of identity?

I have had it with you. I'm not going to waste any more time on this. You try to skate around the fact that you teach heresy and blasphemy with nonsense like this. Jesus is God and is eternal and created all things. I hope you acknowledge this one day before it is too late.

 

[robert derrick]

Exactly! That is what I am saying! That destroys your claims of Abraham retaking the ancient land in the future. The old covenant promises have been superseded with greater ones and better land - Jesus Christ and the new covenant arrangement.

That wasn't your question. You asked how Abraham could be given that land forever, since this earth will pass away.

The answer is, that forever with God, is that of gifts and promises not to be repented of.

The NT supersedes the forever promise of OT, but the OT was still in effect at one time.

The New earth will supercede the forever promise of land on this earth given to Abraham, but Abraham will still be given it.

Your rejection of a millennial kingdom reign of Christ, rejects the promise of God to give Abraham the land he walked on this earth, which can only be after His return to earth.

You disanull God's physical promise to Abraham, as well as Job's prophecy of physically seeing his Redeemer and God standing on this earth.

You refuse to be corrected by plain Scripture, because it goes against your own teaching.

You won't even allow for it to adjust your teaching. Afterall, you could just say the land will be given, and Job will see the Lord Himself do it, and then the Lord and all His saints will soon afterward ascend to heaven to let the earth be scorched.

You're so caught up in yourself, that you can't even acknowledge that possibility.

 

[robert derrick]

See Heb 11. The heavenly.

Job will see this under the New heavens that he will create after the Judgment is past.

12
So man lies down and does not rise [again].
Until the heavens are no longer,
The dead will not awake nor be raised from their sleep.
13
“Oh, that You would hide me in Sheol (the nether world, the place of the dead),
That You would conceal me until Your wrath is past,
That You would set a definite time and then remember me [and in Your lovingkindness imprint me on your heart]!
14
“If a man dies, will he live again?
I will wait all the days of my struggle
Until my change and release will come.
15
“[Then] You will call, and I will answer You;
You will long for [me] the work of Your hands.
16
“But now You number [each of] my steps;
You do not observe nor take note of my sin.
17
“My transgression is sealed up in a bag,
And You cover my wickedness [from Your view].

See Job prophesying seeing his Redeemer and God stand on this earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

See Job prophesying seeing his Redeemer and God stand on this earth.

That will happen AFTER the current "heavens are no longer". Did you not even read his post and the scripture he posted?

So, the only way for "his Redeemer and God" to stand on this earth is to stand on this earth after it has been renewed (the new earth) since it will occur after the current "heavens are no longer".

 

[jeffweeder]

See Job prophesying seeing his Redeemer and God stand on this earth.

“For I know that my Redeemer and Vindicator lives,
And at the last He will take His stand upon the earth.
26
“Even after my [mortal] skin is destroyed [by death],
Yet from my [immortal] flesh I will see God,​

He will see this when the heavens are no more.

 

[Timtofly]

That will happen AFTER the current "heavens are no longer". Did you not even read his post and the scripture he posted?

So, the only way for "his Redeemer and God" to stand on this earth is to stand on this earth after it has been renewed (the new earth) since it will occur after the current "heavens are no longer".

According to Amil opinion.

Not according to Scripture. You have yet to show one verse that claims all life stops at the Second Coming.

 

[robert derrick]

That will happen AFTER the current "heavens are no longer". Did you not even read his post and the scripture he posted?

So, the only way for "his Redeemer and God" to stand on this earth is to stand on this earth after it has been renewed (the new earth) since it will occur after the current "heavens are no longer".

So, Job's prophecy is finally responded to. Thanks.

Job prophecies of this earth as any normal reader would understand. People reading a new earth into it is personal only.

Scripture never speaks of a new heaven and earth, until Isaiah. And it is created by God, not reshaped from the old.

This earth will flee and pass away out of sight of God forever, and will give place for a new heaven and earth.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Scripture says there will be no place for the old earth and heaven to be found with God and His people anymore.

You also err in refusing to have this earth pass away, but let the heavens do so, as though they no longer matter.

Scripture of course says both this earth and heaven pass away into insignificance with no place in sight of God and His people in the new earth and heaven.

 

[WPM]

So, Job's prophecy is finally responded to. Thanks.

Job prophecies of this earth as any normal reader would understand. People reading a new earth into it is personal only.

Scripture never speaks of a new heaven and earth, until Isaiah. And it is created by God, not reshaped from the old.

This earth will flee and pass away out of sight of God forever, and will give place for a new heaven and earth.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Scripture says there will be no place for the old earth and heaven to be found with God and His people anymore.

You also err in refusing to have this earth pass away, but let the heavens do so, as though they no longer matter.

Scripture of course says both this earth and heaven pass away into insignificance with no place in sight of God and His people in the new earth and heaven.

When in Revelation does the NHNE arrive - at or after the millennium?

 

[rwb]

So, Job's prophecy is finally responded to. Thanks.

Job prophecies of this earth as any normal reader would understand. People reading a new earth into it is personal only.

Scripture never speaks of a new heaven and earth, until Isaiah. And it is created by God, not reshaped from the old.

This earth will flee and pass away out of sight of God forever, and will give place for a new heaven and earth.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Scripture says there will be no place for the old earth and heaven to be found with God and His people anymore.

You also err in refusing to have this earth pass away, but let the heavens do so, as though they no longer matter.

Scripture of course says both this earth and heaven pass away into insignificance with no place in sight of God and His people in the new earth and heaven.

Job 19:25 (KJV) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

Hebrews 1:2 (KJV) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Acts 2:17 (KJV) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
These words from Job were fulfilled when Christ, The Messiah came to the earth a man, and resurrected from the dead.

Job 19:26 (KJV) And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:27 (KJV) Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

These words from Job too are fulfilled. In his body alive, which is what flesh implies, Job is with the Lord in heaven. He ascended there with Christ after His resurrection. Job did not ascend to heaven with the Lord in his physical body of flesh, but as a spiritual body. Because heaven is a spiritual habitation and flesh, and blood cannot inherit the kingdom in heaven. Neither Job or any who have died in faith will see Christ through physical body of flesh until believers are physically resurrected and changed from mortal to immortal, and corruptible to incorruptible. Then believers will be physically fit to be with Christ on the new earth forever. Because on the new earth there will be no mortal beings, no sin, no corruption, and no more death. Nothing impure will be found upon the new earth.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

1 Corinthians 15:20 (KJV) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:35 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:36-38 (KJV) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

1 Corinthians 15:44-50 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

John writes at the GWTJ the heavens and earth that are now, shall pass away after judgment of the lake of fire. Then John sees a new heaven and a new earth where there will be no more tears, death, sorrow, crying or pain because there will be no mortal, corruptible souls there. Only the bride, the Lamb's wife will be found there. It is on the new heaven and earth that the holy city, new Jerusalem shall be. The city coming down from God is prepared as a bride. No fearful, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, liars will be there because they will have already been cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

Revelation 21:1-5 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Revelation 21:8 (KJV) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 21:9 (KJV) And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

I just don't find any place where John writes of mortals living for one thousand years after this first heaven and earth have passed away, and the new heaven and earth ushered in???

 

[Timtofly]

John writes at the GWTJ the heavens and earth that are now, shall pass away after judgment of the lake of fire.

No, it does not say that. Heaven and earth no longer exist in the frame of this event. Only the GWT and the LOF are seen. Heaven and earth return to nothing before the dead are judged.

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

Creation no longer existed when these dead are judged. Death and sheol were emptied out, and even those phenomenon, or locations where souls were, were also cast into the LOF.

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

It would seem that the sea is mentioned as the last thing of creation that was seen, before it to, became nothing. Similar to Genesis 1:2

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

There was no dry land/earth at the beginning. Only "the sea". No souls were left behind in the former creation. The former creation ceased to exist, period. Some may argue that the sea is eternity outside of any creation, but I don't think that is provable. That is a pagan invention, pointing out the eternal physicality of reality void a God.

John does not even clarify if there is a resurrection or the chance to not end up in the LOF at this judgment. It is only called the second death. So if you condemn other posters claiming they add or force things into the text, I won't except that you can do it, when others cannot. Even claiming an implication there should be a separate resurrection from the earlier first resurrection in the same chapter, is still adding to the text. Although you don't even claim the first resurrection is the same thing as what is written about these dead. They are still as dead standing before God as they were dead in death and sheol. Even an implied resurrection would take them out of death, and thus avoid the LOF. A resurrection is not necessary to cast them into the LOF.

 

[WPM]

Job 19:25 (KJV) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

Hebrews 1:2 (KJV) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Acts 2:17 (KJV) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
These words from Job were fulfilled when Christ, The Messiah came to the earth a man, and resurrected from the dead.

Job 19:26 (KJV) And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:27 (KJV) Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

These words from Job too are fulfilled. In his body alive, which is what flesh implies, Job is with the Lord in heaven. He ascended there with Christ after His resurrection. Job did not ascend to heaven with the Lord in his physical body of flesh, but as a spiritual body. Because heaven is a spiritual habitation and flesh, and blood cannot inherit the kingdom in heaven. Neither Job or any who have died in faith will see Christ through physical body of flesh until believers are physically resurrected and changed from mortal to immortal, and corruptible to incorruptible. Then believers will be physically fit to be with Christ on the new earth forever. Because on the new earth there will be no mortal beings, no sin, no corruption, and no more death. Nothing impure will be found upon the new earth.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

1 Corinthians 15:20 (KJV) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:35 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:36-38 (KJV) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

1 Corinthians 15:44-50 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

John writes at the GWTJ the heavens and earth that are now, shall pass away after judgment of the lake of fire. Then John sees a new heaven and a new earth where there will be no more tears, death, sorrow, crying or pain because there will be no mortal, corruptible souls there. Only the bride, the Lamb's wife will be found there. It is on the new heaven and earth that the holy city, new Jerusalem shall be. The city coming down from God is prepared as a bride. No fearful, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, liars will be there because they will have already been cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

Revelation 21:1-5 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Revelation 21:8 (KJV) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 21:9 (KJV) And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

I just don't find any place where John writes of mortals living for one thousand years after this first heaven and earth have passed away, and the new heaven and earth ushered in???

But the redeemed do not receive bodily redemption until the second coming. Job was talking about that day when the current corruptible heavens shall be no more.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes you did. Stop lying. You deny His Godhood. You deny He is the Creator. You mocked : "I wonder why Satan didn't know that Jesus was the Lord God? I wonder why the Holy Spirit led Jesus to be tempted if God can't be tempted?" You are a blasphemer.

I Agree 100%, as if we have all been sleeping for the past two weeks on the blatant Blasphemy and Heresy

 

[Truth7t7]

Oh, now you are tired? hmm. I hope you recall that I pleaded with you to drop the subject. I begged you to stop. But you insisted that I highjack someone's thread. And now we witness a group discussion where we see an exchange of ideas among peaceable brothers. From your perspective you should be glad that these men have been given an opportunity to argue what they believe to be right. As long as people like me are censored, then the Trinitarian traditions of Christianity remain unexamined. What if I am wrong? (I don't think so, but I am willing to be corrected.) Then what better way for others to prove Trinitarian doctrine than an open discussion of scripture?

You should know that the truth is always victorious in a fair fight, which is why censorship is an evil that promotes the darkness. I encourage you brother, stay in the fight and reason with those with whom you disagree.

Your teachings and beliefs are heretical that belong in a non-christian forum, the Jehovahs witnesses also deny the Godhead and that Jesus is God Almighty, in the beginning, and creator of all things

This is a Christian Only Forum, you have voiced your heresy for weeks, we are all aware of your Non-Christian heretical beliefs

 

[rwb]

But the redeemed do not receive bodily redemption until the second coming. Job was talking about that day when the current corruptible heavens shall be no more.

I believe Job, like Abraham knew of Christ who would come (Gospel). And even though Christ would die, Job understood death could not hold Him. Yes, Job knew he would not be resurrected to physical life again until this first heavens and earth be no more. Because the grave could not hold Job's Redeemer, neither would it forever hold him.

 

[robert derrick]

​

“For I know that my Redeemer and Vindicator lives,​

And at the last He will take His stand upon the earth.​

26​

“Even after my [mortal] skin is destroyed [by death],​

Yet from my [immortal] flesh I will see God,​

He will see this when the heavens are no more.

The only think about heavens being no more, is your personal words added to Scripture.

I mean, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that.