Paul claimed 3 times that Revelation 20:4 was a current reality.

[Truth7t7]

Ok, I read the bolded blue text. You suggest he can deceive people, just not nations to battle. If I disregard everything and only focus on your suggestion:
He is currently bound today and cannot deceive the nations to battle

Setting aside every nation war since 70AD, How do you explain WW1 and 2? If he was bound, why did the world battle?

One commentator says:
that he should deceive the nations no more; that is, by drawing them into idolatry, false worship, and false doctrine; and by exciting them to make war against the saints, or to persecute them, as appears from Revelation 20:8 as he had done before; and it is notorious enough that he has deceived them both these ways; he deceived the Pagan nations not only before, but since the coming of Christ, to worship the Heathen deities; and the Papists, who are called Gentiles, or nations, Revelation 11:2 to fall down to idols of gold, silver, stone, and wood; and the nation of the Jews to entertain a false and deluded notion of the Messiah; and all of them, in their turns, to persecute the people of God, as the Jews at the death of Stephen, and afterwards;

Would God only limit Satans deceptions to gather men to battle? Or would setting him in prison remove him from the world and all his deception? Yes, he does gather the nations to battle. He deceives them and in doing so they war with each other. It doesn’t make sense to remove Satan and imprison him for 1k years if he can still deceive. It makes the prison process invalid and of no real point. But removing all deception allows the Kingdom to flourish. It sets the tone for the things we look forward to.

Assuming Satan is currently in prison suggests the Kingdom is current. If that’s the case, we missed the resurrection of the dead, Christ 2nd advent, the bema seat and the New Jerusalem. The sealing must be concurrent with Christ reign; and Christ reign begins at the 7th Trumpet. I cannot see how any of that is a possibility from a figurative or spiritual side of it.

Satan Is Currently Bound Today From One Specific Future Battle

Read What Is In "Bold Blue" Real Slow, And If You Don't Understand My "Very Clear" Explanation Of What Battle Satan Is Bound From, And What Currently Has Him Bound, I Will Explain

Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To "The Final Battle"

(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

 

[Truth7t7]

Assuming Satan is currently in prison suggests the Kingdom is current. If that’s the case, we missed the resurrection of the dead, Christ 2nd advent, the bema seat and the New Jerusalem. The sealing must be concurrent with Christ reign; and Christ reign begins at the 7th Trumpet. I cannot see how any of that is a possibility from a figurative or spiritual side of it.

Jesus Returns In His "Second Coming To The Final Battle Seen Below (The End) At This Time The Resurrection, Catching Up, Final Judgement, Eternal Kingdom In The NHNE Takes Place "In The Twinkling Of An Eye" Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory

Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

 

[Davy]

I certainly wasn't suggesting that Rev 12 had anything to do with Satan's original rebellion! I've thought it's one of two possibilities: it's either Satan's defeat at the Cross, or it's Satan's rage in the endtimes as he operates through the Antichrist.

I realize you were not saying Rev.12:7-9 already happened. I only pointed that idea out which others try to preach happened at Satan's original rebellion.

Both time elements seem to be in Rev 12. The man-child is Christ at his earthly ministry. And the endowment of Satan's power upon the Antichrist is the endtimes scenario. It may be that these two events, separated by many centuries are being linked on purpose?

I don't know that to be true, but it's an interesting idea.

We know that is the idea, simply because Rev.12:1 is a direct reference to OT Israel per Joseph's dream of Genesis 37. And then at Revelation 12:17 which are specifically endtime events about the children of Israel (Christ's Church and unbelieving Israelites).

But it also serves as a division between the first 1260 days of Daniel's symbolic "one week" (7 years) and the latter 1260 day half which will be the time of great tribulation.

And still there is more there, as Rev.12:3-4 reveals that Satan (the red dragon) actually first rebelled against God using an old 'beast' system that had ten horns, seven heads, and only seven crowns. And at that time he drew those third of angels (stars) in rebellion with him. So that is contrasting the final beast system for the end of Rev.13:1-2 which is to have "ten crowns" instead of seven.

I'm not personally sure that Jesus was here referring to Satan? He may have been referring to the Roman ruler? Pontius Pilate could find nothing to accuse Jesus with.

Belief in Antichrist is not a "false doctrine." It is a belief based on the Bible, with genuine evidence. It is based on the Little Horn of Dan 7, and Paul identifies him as a "man of sin."

So the Antichrist does seem to be a human being, biblically, inspired by Satan. Just my opinion, brother. It does us no good to call any doctrine other than what we personally believe "false doctrines." That's a bit on the slanderous side, don't you think? Don't you give any leeway for guesswork?

Yes, Jesus was directly referring to Satan himself. The Rev.12:9 verse reveals the title of "dragon" is simply another title for Satan, and likewise with the title of "that old serpent".

Don't be deceived by the word "antichrist". It is simply a word made up of 2 Greek words that directly translate to the 'instead of Christ', or 'in place of Christ'. Thus it simply means a false one who comes to play Jesus Christ. It is not simply a word that means someone who works against Christ like many think, because the Greek is more specific. Furthermore, that is the exact idea Lord Jesus gave in Matthew 24:23-26 about that coming false one, but even the KJV translators missed it with wrongly making "false Christs" plural, when in the Greek it is simply 'pseudo' 'Christos', pointing to a SINGULAR false-Christ. Furthermore, the Matthew 24:23-26 verses is singular in context; Jesus warns that if someone says He is here, or there, or in the desert, or the secret chambers (inside the temple), then believe it not. That can only be about a singular false-Messiah.

This understanding aligns with 1 John 2:18 also, because John used the "antichrist" 2 ways. His first clause was how they had already heard that "antichrist" shall come. Where did they already hear that? From Lord Jesus, like in John 14:30. Then John's later clause uses the idea of "many antichrists" which is plural, put for Satan's servants that are already at work, like Paul's "mystery of iniquity" idea of 2 Thess.2.

The requirement of the coming Antichrist being a flesh born man has NO evidence in God's written Word. That is simply assumed supposition by men's doctrines, and often based on Jesus telling Satan to get behind Him, because of what Peter said with not allowing Jesus to be delivered up. And wow, we can find some denominations really pushing that flesh-born Antichrist idea as if it were written, when it is not.

These Scriptures point directly to Satan, the "dragon", "that old serpent", being who the whole deceived world will 'unknowingly' worship at the end...

Rev 13:4-9
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
KJV

Usually when Lord Jesus puts that, "If any man have an ear, let him hear," after having shown a mystery. In that case, it is that the "dragon" is who the world is going to worship, and that means worship of Lucifer. And some of Lucifer's servants here on earth have already mentioned that plan for the world.

Rev 17:8
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
KJV

That in red is about Satan himself, as he is the angel of the bottomless pit, and is already judged and sentenced to perish going into perdition. No flesh born man has been judged to perish yet today, so by that is how we 'know'... that is about Satan himself.

The whole world (except Christ's elect) will wonder... at that beast king when he gets here, because they won't understand how that can be Satan himself, here on earth, in person. Many just simply don't believe their Bible about angels being able to visit this earth, and appear in person with the image of man, even though Lord Jesus before He was born of woman appeared on earth back in Old Testament times. Many simply do not understand, nor recognize that other dimension of the heavenly and its similarities to our earthly dimension.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I realize you were not saying Rev.12:7-9 already happened. I only pointed that idea out which others try to preach happened at Satan's original rebellion.


We know that is the idea, simply because Rev.12:1 is a direct reference to OT Israel per Joseph's dream of Genesis 37. And then at Revelation 12:17 which are specifically endtime events about the children of Israel (Christ's Church and unbelieving Israelites).

I do believe Rev 12.1 utilizes the symbolism that applied, in the OT, to Israel. But here it is being applied in the NT, conveying the idea that Israel gave birth to the man-child, Messiah, who was snatched up to heaven and who is to rule on earth. Later, we are told that he will rule for a Millennium over what had been a rebellious earth.

But it also serves as a division between the first 1260 days of Daniel's symbolic "one week" (7 years) and the latter 1260 day half which will be the time of great tribulation.

Sorry, I only see a single set of 1260 days. And that's because under my own system of interpretation I base biblical truths on previous references if they can be viewed as the original source of this truth. In this case, Dan 7, with its reference to "time, times and half a time" is the original source for the teaching of the 1260 days. This contrasts with the 1290 days mentioned in Dan 12, which applied to Antiochus 4. "1260 days" correlates with "time, times and half a time," or 3.5 years.

So we are talking, I believe, only about a single period of 3.5 years in which the "Little Horn" wrecks havoc upon the saints of God. It is at this time that the "Son of Man" descends from the clouds of heaven to displace Antichrist's Kingdom with God's own eternal Kingdom. It will, I believe, begin with a thousand years of rule over mortal mankind. But it will end with the eternal New Jerusalem, which will have no end.

And still there is more there, as Rev.12:3-4 reveals that Satan (the red dragon) actually first rebelled against God using an old 'beast' system that had ten horns, seven heads, and only seven crowns. And at that time he drew those third of angels (stars) in rebellion with him. So that is contrasting the final beast system for the end of Rev.13:1-2 which is to have "ten crowns" instead of seven.

I have noticed the change with the crowns on the 10 horns in Rev 13.1 and the crowns on the 7 heads in Rev 12.3. I'm not sure why that is except that we're told it is Satan in Rev 12 and the Beast/Antichrist in Rev 13. I prefer to see the Antichrist as both the Empire of the man Antichrist and as an individual Man. I see Satan as Antichrist's heavenly counterpart who serves to inspire and empower the Antichrist.

Dan 7.8 This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully.

This is why Paul called the Little Horn the "man of sin," and why John called him the "Antichrist." He spoke boastfully against God and His Kingdom, trying to resist the coming of God's Kingdom. And he saw things as a carnal human being, rather than in a spiritual way. He saw his immense power, given him by Satan, which was leading the world in his direction. He refused to acknowledge the power of God's judgment over and against human will.

Again, I find the source for this teaching in Dan 7, where the "Little Horn" is defined as a "Man." He heads an empire consisting of 10 horns/nations, and deposes 3 of those kings, causing the number of nations to be 10 with only 7 heads, or kings.

Keep in mind brother that these things are on the "obscure" side, and therefore, I think we should allow some liberty of opinion before denouncing anything we don't agree with as "evil" or "idolatrous." Not saying you're doing that, but your language seems to throw contempt on other views, when there is a long history of legitimate Christians viewing things in a diversity of ways. But thanks for your views. You definitely have some interesting elements to consider.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Jesus Returns In His "Second Coming To The Final Battle Seen Below (The End) At This Time The Resurrection, Catching Up, Final Judgement, Eternal Kingdom In The NHNE Takes Place "In The Twinkling Of An Eye" Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory

If Satan is sealed currently, wouldn’t his second coming already have happened? It is concurrent with Satan being sealed, not a thousand years later.

Now, I agree with your stance: Christ comes back at the end and the resurrection, catching up, final judgment takes place then. But those things happen in his Kingdom when he begins to reign, not at the end of his reign.

Please look at Joseph Mede’s argument:

Argument 1.—Under the first six seals the dragon, or Satan, was free and at large, and also under the first six trumpets of the seventh seal. It follows, therefore, that the 1000 years for which Satan is bound, are brought within the seventh trumpet. That Satan or the dragon was not bound while the first six seals were yet running their course, is plain from this circumstance, that in all that interval, as a red dragon with his seven heads and crowns, he was contending with Michael about the offspring of the woman, as was just now demonstrated. But neither did this take place under the first six trumpets of the following seal; for this is the period of the woman in the wilderness, and of the domination of the ten-horned beast, as appears from Synch. I. of this Part. In truth, 33while the woman was living in the wilderness, it was very unlikely that the dragon could. be considered as bound, who, when free and precipitated from heaven, in the first place attempted to overwhelm her with a flood of waters which he cast out of his mouth, as she was preparing to depart;

Then he concludes,
he went to make war with the remnant of her seed which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Are these proofs of Satan’s being bound?

Obviously not. He the makes another argument which I was explaining above:

during the thousand years in which Satan is detained in custody, Christ may be said to have reigned with his followers over that august and magnificent kingdom, therefore, by the same arguments and marks by which the synchronism of the one is established, that of the other will be confirmed. That this august kingdom of Christ then begins with the seventh trumpet, or from the destruction of the beast, it is now our business to show.

How can Christ be currently reigning if the 7th Trumpet hasn’t blown? Do you recognize the difference between him receiving all power seated at the right hand of God and his reign when the Kingdoms of the earth are his? Still, I come back to my earlier comments. If Satan is sealed, how can he deceive the nations into WW1 and 2. He can if he’s not bound. The model of the dragon still lives. For the 7 heads may be thought to be slain, but never are we told the dragon is imprisoned till after it is defeated after the man of sin is revealed. To think otherwise is extremely difficult!

 

[ewq1938]

Again, I find the source for this teaching in Dan 7, where the "Little Horn" is defined as a "Man." He heads an empire consisting of 10 horns/nations

And the counterpart to that is the second beast/false prophet who has two little horns and also heads an empire consisting of 10 horns. In both situations the individual is NOT the ten horned beast yet you have claimed that is somehow the antichrist when it isn't in Daniel.

Daniel - ten horned beast arises, little horn comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. Little horn is the antichrist.

Revelation - ten horned beast arises, false prophet comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. False prophet is the antichrist.

 

[Randy Kluth]

And the counterpart to that is the second beast/false prophet who has two little horns and also heads an empire consisting of 10 horns. In both situations the individual is NOT the ten horned beast yet you have claimed that is somehow the antichrist when it isn't in Daniel.

Daniel - ten horned beast arises, little horn comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. Little horn is the antichrist.

Revelation - ten horned beast arises, false prophet comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. False prophet is the antichrist.

Yes, apocalyptic symbolism is difficult, which is why there are a number of interpretations. I agree the Empire of 10 nations and 7 kings would be, in my scenario, separate from the Little Horn, the Antichrist. I just believe that once Antichrist takes control of this Empire, it comes to be associated with him.

Initially it appears to be Satan's design to give authority only to 7 heads of state, placing crowns on the heads of only 7 rulers--3 are deposed in Dan 7. But then the Antichrist gives power to all 10 nations by assuming his own authority over all 10. Maybe that's why the crowns are placed on 7 heads in Rev 12.3 and the crowns are placed on 10 horns in Rev 13.1?

 

[Truth7t7]

If Satan is sealed, how can he deceive the nations into WW1 and 2. He can if he’s not bound.

Thanks for the time, I have clearly explained my position concerning Revelation 20:1-9 and "Deceive The Nation's" is to the "Future" final battle "Armageddon"
"
You allude to World War 1 & 2 as if I haven't explained myself several times, I will do it again and again and again

"READ REAL SLOW":

SATAN IS BOUND PRESENTLY BY THE 6TH VIAL, WHEN IT IS POURED OUT IN THE "FUTURE" HE WILL BE LOOSED TO DECEIVE THE WORLDS NATIONS, IN GATHERING THEM TO THE FUTURE "FINAL BATTLE" AT ARMAGEDDON

"READ REAL SLOW":

SATAN IS BOUND PRESENTLY BY THE 6TH VIAL, WHEN IT IS POURED OUT IN THE "FUTURE" HE WILL BE LOOSED TO DECEIVE THE WORLDS NATIONS, IN GATHERING THEM TO THE FUTURE "FINAL BATTLE" AT ARMAGEDDON

"READ REAL SLOW":

SATAN IS BOUND PRESENTLY BY THE 6TH VIAL, WHEN IT IS POURED OUT IN THE "FUTURE" HE WILL BE LOOSED TO DECEIVE THE WORLDS NATIONS, IN GATHERING THEM TO THE FUTURE "FINAL BATTLE" AT ARMAGEDDON

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, apocalyptic symbolism is difficult, which is why there are a number of interpretations. I agree the Empire of 10 nations and 7 kings would be, in my scenario, separate from the Little Horn, the Antichrist. I just believe that once Antichrist takes control of this Empire, it comes to be associated with him.

Of course which is why the AC causes people to worship his ten horned kingdom.

Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Initially it appears to be Satan's design to give authority only to 7 heads of state, placing crowns on the heads of only 7 rulers--3 are deposed in Dan 7. But then the Antichrist gives power to all 10 nations by assuming his own authority over all 10.

The heads on the beast are not individuals or heads of state but areas of land. In the pre-Rev 13 language, satan himself has crowns on his land-heads but this is not in place in the world just a vision. When satan's beast actually rises in this world, it will have changed slightly with the crowns multiplying into ten and placed on his kings.


Maybe that's why the crowns are placed on 7 heads in Rev 12.3 and the crowns are placed on 10 horns in Rev 13.1?

 

[ewq1938]

Thanks for the time, I have clearly explained my position concerning Revelation 20:1-9 and "Deceive The Nation's " is to battle

Satan is not to deceive in any sense during his imprisonment. It is not just barring him from deceiving people into war but any and all forms of deception. After release, his sole interest is deceiving people to go to war. Before the thousand years he deceived mainly for people to believe the Ac was god during the GT, with deception for war at Armegeddon which was after the GT ended.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Of course which is why the AC causes people to worship his ten horned kingdom.

Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.






The heads on the beast are not individuals or heads of state but areas of land. In the pre-Rev 13 language, satan himself has crowns on his land-heads but this is not in place in the world just a vision. When satan's beast actually rises in this world, it will have changed slightly with the crowns multiplying into ten and placed on his kings.


Maybe that's why the crowns are placed on 7 heads in Rev 12.3 and the crowns are placed on 10 horns in Rev 13.1?

I'm certainly not dogmatic about any of this. I think God knew we'd have issues interpreting it. So we have to sort of stand back and get a bird's eye view of what's being said. In short, an Antichristian Empire is coming, and we're warned, as saints, to endure to the end. Of course, if you believe the Church is gone, that won't be your worry. But still, there are Antichristian movements in our own time that have to be resisted. And even if the Church is gone, a new Church must emerge who will be persecuted by the Beast.

 

[Truth7t7]

I'm certainly not dogmatic about any of this. I think God knew we'd have issues interpreting it. So we have to sort of stand back and get a bird's eye view of what's being said. In short, an Antichristian Empire is coming, and we're warned, as saints, to endure to the end. Of course, if you believe the Church is gone, that won't be your worry. But still, there are Antichristian movements in our own time that have to be resisted. And even if the Church is gone, a new Church must emerge who will be persecuted by the Beast.

The Two Witnesses Will Dominate The Entire Tribulation, Something Many Disregard As Non-Existent

Try Reading Exodus And The Plagues Upon Pharaoh And Egypt, It's Going To Be A Complete Replay

God's Divine Protection, "Open Your Ears"

(Revelation) 13:9-10KJV
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

God's Divine Protection During The Final Hour Of Earth's Temptation, Just Like The Passover In Egypt, "Open Your Ears"

Isaiah 26:20-21KJV
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

The Great Trib Will Be Upon The Antichrist And Wicked, The Church Is Protected, Dont Be Deceived

There's Going To Be An End Times Persecution, The Beast And His Kingdom Are The Target Of God's Empowered (Two Witnesses)

The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected

The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal Will Be Tormented, The Sealed Church Is Protected

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Plagues upon The Beast and his Kingdom, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation 11:3-6
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

 

[ewq1938]

I'm certainly not dogmatic about any of this.

Do you agree with what i have presented here:

Daniel - ten horned beast arises, little horn comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. Little horn is the antichrist.

Revelation - ten horned beast arises, false prophet comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. False prophet is the antichrist.


Isn't this a match Do not the details match?

 

[Davy]

I do believe Rev 12.1 utilizes the symbolism that applied, in the OT, to Israel. But here it is being applied in the NT, conveying the idea that Israel gave birth to the man-child, Messiah, who was snatched up to heaven and who is to rule on earth. Later, we are told that he will rule for a Millennium over what had been a rebellious earth.

Sorry, I only see a single set of 1260 days. And that's because under my own system of interpretation I base biblical truths on previous references if they can be viewed as the original source of this truth. In this case, Dan 7, with its reference to "time, times and half a time" is the original source for the teaching of the 1260 days. This contrasts with the 1290 days mentioned in Dan 12, which applied to Antiochus 4. "1260 days" correlates with "time, times and half a time," or 3.5 years.

First mention of a 1260 day period is with Rev.12:6, prior to the war in Heaven.

Rev 12:6
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
KJV

2nd mention of a 1260 day period is after the war in Heaven with the dragon cast to the earth to persecute the woman, which is a specific prophecy for the great trib timing.

Rev 12:14
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
KJV

Both 1260 day periods are simply ideas about God's protection of His elect, prior to the great trib, and during the great trib.

The 1290 and 1335 days periods are for after... the tribulation when Jesus will have returned. The 30 days after the trib represents the cleansing of the sanctuary. Then those who come to the 1335 days will be blessed it says.

So we are talking, I believe, only about a single period of 3.5 years in which the "Little Horn" wrecks havoc upon the saints of God. It is at this time that the "Son of Man" descends from the clouds of heaven to displace Antichrist's Kingdom with God's own eternal Kingdom. It will, I believe, begin with a thousand years of rule over mortal mankind. But it will end with the eternal New Jerusalem, which will have no end.

That's the latter half (1260 days) of the Daniel 9:27 "one week" (7 years). You haven't accounted for the first half 1260 days of that "one week".

I have noticed the change with the crowns on the 10 horns in Rev 13.1 and the crowns on the 7 heads in Rev 12.3. I'm not sure why that is except that we're told it is Satan in Rev 12 and the Beast/Antichrist in Rev 13. I prefer to see the Antichrist as both the Empire of the man Antichrist and as an individual Man. I see Satan as Antichrist's heavenly counterpart who serves to inspire and empower the Antichrist.

Dan 7.8 This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully.

My Bible (KJV) calls him simply a 'man'. Thing is, the image of man is also the heavenly image of God and the angels. I'm amazed at how so many brethren soon forget Genesis 1:26-27 where God showed He created aadam in His Image and Likeness. The origin of the image of man originates in the heavenly dimension from God's Own image, not from Adam's flesh. So when you use the word 'man' to try and point only to flesh man, sorry, but I have to laugh.

This is why Paul called the Little Horn the "man of sin," and why John called him the "Antichrist." He spoke boastfully against God and His Kingdom, trying to resist the coming of God's Kingdom. And he saw things as a carnal human being, rather than in a spiritual way. He saw his immense power, given him by Satan, which was leading the world in his direction. He refused to acknowledge the power of God's judgment over and against human will.

Satan is that "man of sin" because he did the very first sin. That's right, Adam and Eve were not the first to sin. It was Satan in the old world who sinned in the beginning John said, simply because he coveted God's throne for himself in wanting to be The God. Satan also is that "son of perdition", because only he and his angels that rebelled with him have already been judged and sentenced to perdition in the future "lake of fire". Even Judas Iscariot has not been judged and sentenced yet, no flesh born man has yet, because the GWT Judgment is not until after Christ's future return, and after the "thousand years" of Rev.20.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Thanks for the time, I have clearly explained my position concerning Revelation 20:1-9 and "Deceive The Nation's" is to the "Future" final battle "Armageddon"
"
You allude to World War 1 & 2 as if I haven't explained myself several times, I will do it again and again and again

"READ REAL SLOW":

SATAN IS BOUND PRESENTLY BY THE 6TH VIAL, WHEN IT IS POURED OUT IN THE "FUTURE" HE WILL BE LOOSED TO DECEIVE THE WORLDS NATIONS, IN GATHERING THEM TO THE FUTURE "FINAL BATTLE" AT ARMAGEDDON

"READ REAL SLOW":

SATAN IS BOUND PRESENTLY BY THE 6TH VIAL, WHEN IT IS POURED OUT IN THE "FUTURE" HE WILL BE LOOSED TO DECEIVE THE WORLDS NATIONS, IN GATHERING THEM TO THE FUTURE "FINAL BATTLE" AT ARMAGEDDON

"READ REAL SLOW":

SATAN IS BOUND PRESENTLY BY THE 6TH VIAL, WHEN IT IS POURED OUT IN THE "FUTURE" HE WILL BE LOOSED TO DECEIVE THE WORLDS NATIONS, IN GATHERING THEM TO THE FUTURE "FINAL BATTLE" AT ARMAGEDDON

I took my time and began to read slowly. Reading slow did not help your case, even in its triplicate. I presented specifics in the argument that you have not addressed. Instead of talking about them, you repeat copy and paste. Hardly an antidotal defense.

If Satan is currently sealed in prison, it assumes he is in the bottom less pit. All that is left is for him to be released and then defeated and cast into the lake of fire. But there is a major problem. Revelation 16 states:

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

If the Dragon is present here, you are assuming he has been released from the bottomless pit as you said READ SLOW and you maintain above its at the battle of Armageddon. Well, if he already entered the pit BEFORE Armageddon and he is seen here walking around, how do you contend with Rev 19 stating:

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Where is the Dragon? He isnt in the Lake of fire. Read Slow now Truth. VERY SLOW. The False Prophet and the Beast of the sea are in the lake of Fire and the Dragon isnt. WHY? Remember there is no Chapter breaks...

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him,

It's because he never was imprisoned otherwise, he'd be destroyed WITH them in the same lake. Its not till AFTER the 1k years expire that we see:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are

Huh, look at that. When you read slow, you get answers. The dragon isnt cast in the lake of fire after Armageddon with the other 2. He must be in prison after then for 1k years and then will join them "where the beast and the false prophet are". Sound scriptural facts gained by slow reading and vivid research.

 

[Truth7t7]

I took my time and began to read slowly. Reading slow did not help your case, even in its triplicate. I presented specifics in the argument that you have not addressed. Instead of talking about them, you repeat copy and paste. Hardly an antidotal defense.

If Satan is currently sealed in prison, it assumes he is in the bottom less pit. All that is left is for him to be released and then defeated and cast into the lake of fire. But there is a major problem. Revelation 16 states:

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

If the Dragon is present here, you are assuming he has been released from the bottomless pit as you said READ SLOW and you maintain above its at the battle of Armageddon. Well, if he already entered the pit BEFORE Armageddon and he is seen here walking around, how do you contend with Rev 19 stating:

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Where is the Dragon? He isnt in the Lake of fire. Read Slow now Truth. VERY SLOW. The False Prophet and the Beast of the sea are in the lake of Fire and the Dragon isnt. WHY? Remember there is no Chapter breaks...

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him,

It's because he never was imprisoned otherwise, he'd be destroyed WITH them in the same lake. Its not till AFTER the 1k years expire that we see:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are

Huh, look at that. When you read slow, you get answers. The dragon isnt cast in the lake of fire after Armageddon with the other 2. He must be in prison after then for 1k years and then will join them "where the beast and the false prophet are". Sound scriptural facts gained by slow reading and vivid research.

I have explained my position in great detail

Satan is presently bound by the 6th vial, when it is poured out he will be loosed to deceive the nations to the final battle at Armageddon

Satan isn't bound literally in a pit, nor is his evil bound presently, he is "Specifically Bound" by the 6th vial that must be poured out, then he will be loosed in deceiving the nations to the final battle at Armageddon, it's simple and clearly explained

I disagree with your claims of a 1,000 year kingdom, when the 7th vial is poured out this is the end

We Disagree, We Have Explaibed Our Positions

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Randy Kluth]

Do you agree with what i have presented here:

Daniel - ten horned beast arises, little horn comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. Little horn is the antichrist.

Revelation - ten horned beast arises, false prophet comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. False prophet is the antichrist.


Isn't this a match Do not the details match?

Sorry, it's one of those difficult subjects for me. I know that in the Early Church some felt the 1st Beast was the Antichrist, and others thought the 2nd Beast, or the False Prophet, was the Antichrist. I don't know. For lack of knowing, I've selected the 1st Beast as the Antichrist. But I'm all ears on this one.

 

[Randy Kluth]

First mention of a 1260 day period is with Rev.12:6, prior to the war in Heaven.

Rev 12:6
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
KJV

2nd mention of a 1260 day period is after the war in Heaven with the dragon cast to the earth to persecute the woman, which is a specific prophecy for the great trib timing.

Rev 12:14
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
KJV

Both 1260 day periods are simply ideas about God's protection of His elect, prior to the great trib, and during the great trib.

The 1290 and 1335 days periods are for after... the tribulation when Jesus will have returned. The 30 days after the trib represents the cleansing of the sanctuary. Then those who come to the 1335 days will be blessed it says.


That's the latter half (1260 days) of the Daniel 9:27 "one week" (7 years). You haven't accounted for the first half 1260 days of that "one week".


My Bible (KJV) calls him simply a 'man'. Thing is, the image of man is also the heavenly image of God and the angels. I'm amazed at how so many brethren soon forget Genesis 1:26-27 where God showed He created aadam in His Image and Likeness. The origin of the image of man originates in the heavenly dimension from God's Own image, not from Adam's flesh. So when you use the word 'man' to try and point only to flesh man, sorry, but I have to laugh.


Satan is that "man of sin" because he did the very first sin. That's right, Adam and Eve were not the first to sin. It was Satan in the old world who sinned in the beginning John said, simply because he coveted God's throne for himself in wanting to be The God. Satan also is that "son of perdition", because only he and his angels that rebelled with him have already been judged and sentenced to perdition in the future "lake of fire". Even Judas Iscariot has not been judged and sentenced yet, no flesh born man has yet, because the GWT Judgment is not until after Christ's future return, and after the "thousand years" of Rev.20.

Some of that I agree with. Satan is the 1st sinner, the judgment is after the Millennium, etc. I can understand seeing 2 segments of 1260 days, but I just prefer to believe there is just 1 period of 1260 days, because the author would likely look back to the "time, times and half a time" in Dan 7, which is the only place in the OT Antichrist is mentioned in any detail.

My biggest problem in this has been that I've never been able to account for the last half of Daniel's 70th Week. So I've just come to assume the 70th Weeks is completed in just half a week, which I believe ended with the Cross.

But thanks for your thoughts. I'm always interested in hearing valid views of these things.

 

[ewq1938]

Sorry, it's one of those difficult subjects for me. I know that in the Early Church some felt the 1st Beast was the Antichrist, and others thought the 2nd Beast, or the False Prophet, was the Antichrist. I don't know. For lack of knowing, I've selected the 1st Beast as the Antichrist. But I'm all ears on this one.

You didn't answer the question.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You didn't answer the question.

That's because I agree with much of what you said, but didn't know how to definitely disagree with your position. Yes, there's is a similarity between the False Prophet being introduced in connection with the 10 horns, and the Little Horn/the Antichrist being introduced in Daniel in connection with the 10 horns.

The same hold true, however, for the 1st Beast, which in my view would be the Antichrist. After all, later in the Revelation (19.20) the Beast and the False Prophet are introduced as two distinct individuals. If the 2nd Beast is the False Prophet, then the 1st Beast is the Antichrist.