Can A Person Be a Christian And A Sinner At The Same Time ?

[Prentis]

We never cease to sin. This doesn't mean we never cease to cheat, steal, kill etc. We may, and indeed do, avoid these things, but that doesn't make one sinless.

In other words, the external signs of sins, we can eliminate, thus seeming righteous, but what actually matters to God, the sins of our heart... Well we know we'll never get rid of that, right? :blink:

What people are subtly (or not so subtly) suggesting is that (1) we are to clean the outside of the cup, and God remains powerless (or somehow doesn't will) to cleanse our insides. We are containers, either for carnal things, or the Spirit of God. Yet many here don't even believe we can be filled with God! It is unbelief that is being shown forth and seen as reasonable by most here...

Overcoming sin is a YES in Christ, if someone is having a problem with overcoming a sin in their life, remember the blood bought promises we have, if we forget them then we are faithless and are in unbelief. If it's bitterness we struggle with, we remember that God is the avenger, they WILL be avenged by Him, if it's fear God tells us - do not fear for He is with me. If it's another sin we're dealing with we remember with God all things are possible - including overcoming sin, if it's coveting, we remember God provides all of our needs. Just memorize these promises and when temptation comes, remember them. This is how we learn to walk in His Spirit.

Jesus does not want us to remain in our sins, what would be the point, we are conforming (..ing means process) to His image, how can we do that AND continue in sin?

It might take a lifetime for those who do not hold onto and believe the promises of God.

Good post, bro! :)

It takes a lifetime for those who do! What will be of those who remain in unbelief? It's a fearful thing to see people justifying unbelief and defeat in the name of God, saying that somehow this is his will...

But God did not say, "to the one who claims my blood", but rather "to he who overcomes"... And it says of the saints that they 'overcame by the blood of the Lamb'. The blood allows us access to the presence of God, to the power to overcome... It is far from the free pass many claim it to be, or the cover for our sins.. It is a power that changes our whole being to conform us to Christ. When we are full of his light, there is no place for sin! Our whole being is taken with who he is, and his Spirit animates us and gives life to our mortal bodies!

 

[Episkopos]

God is not more blind than men to sin. It must be remembered that God is holy...and that His ways are holy. So He is MORE sensitive to sin issues than we are.

But Jesus said we are to be as holy as God. He commands us to be. And then He empowers us to be.

So to refure this is to refute Christ and become either an unbeliever or disobedient.

We are instruments that have gone out of tune. Christ is tuning us, but it is taking awhile to get us in playing condition again. Christ is patient with us - He takes as long as is necessary to bring us to a place where we sound as pristine as He made us to be. You are expecting us to be able to perform at concert level the second Christ starts working with us......it doesn't work that way.

You know how I know this? I've never met a Christian who is perfect. Never. And you guys can play all the semantics games you want to play - sinners are not serious / do not really know Christ / are immature / have fallen out of grace / etc - it is all false. You cannot rush the work of the Holy Spirit in our sanctification, no matter how much you want to be sin free, immediately.

The word reveals who we are...you cannot judge the word for then you are judging God. You are seeing the world through your own sinfulness.

 

[Episkopos]

John didn't lay out a trap. What nonsense are you talking about?

The bible is written to judge us. It would take another thread to explain this or you could do a study yourself.

This is intriguing because while I agree with many things you say, I see some problems in your knowledge and what seem to be glaring contradictions in your arguments. It may be a case of us talking about the same things in different ways, but I'm wondering if something more insidious isn't at work.

You admit you've sinned and do sin; but you also seem to be in denial that you sin because sin dwells in you.

The difficulty is with short explanations since the bible is very plain. What is amazing is that these expalnations are insufficient.



Do you think the flesh is only substance? The flesh is a complex of mind and substance. I'm wondering if you deny that sin dwells in the natural mind, and if you don't have a natural mind?

Those who are in the Spirit have the mind of Christ...not the natural mind. Adam is the father of sinners. God is the Father of holiness. If you pray...Our Father....are you praying to Adam or to God? If you are praying to God then are you denying your own reality?



It almost seems as if you think righteousness is what you do.

It is almost as if you think that Jesus Christ sins through you!



And this very peculiar statement troubles me. Repentance is turning away from from sin to Christ. There is nothing bad in repentance. Yet you seem to think that acknowledgment of sin is sin. Extraordinary.

Disobedience and sin is turning away from God. IN the OT men were on their own. Are you still on your own?


Any clarifications will be appreciated

Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. We have died to the Adamic life and been given a new life. If we let go our old lives we put on Christ. When we do this we are exactly like Him...holy and perfect. But we are yet unwise and have no precedence for trusting God in ALL things. The process of sanctification is to deny self and draw from the new life ONLY. If we do this we will NOT sin. There is no sin in God's house.

Maybe if you had experienced walking in the Spirit this subject would not be so foreign to you. Seek the Lord.

We never cease to sin. This doesn't mean we never cease to cheat, steal, kill etc. We may, and indeed do, avoid these things, but that doesn't make one sinless.

You could be telling me who you think will win the world series as well...but are your ideas from the Spirit or are they found in the bible???

Who's voice is this?

"The soul that sins...it shall surely NOT die!


Who has some discernment here?

 

[justaname]

Here I want to refer to John.
John 1:29 NASB
The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
In accordance to the gospel, Jesus "takes away the sin of the world". No longer is sin covered as it was in the old covenant, now under the new covenant sin is taken away. We are no longer bound to sin and it's penalty which is death for we have been delivered and overcame sin and death.

Those who say we are still sinners are mastered by sin, and do not have the Spirit in them.
Is that to say we, those who do have the Spirit, never sin again? My prayer for all is yes, yet I am a realist. I have failed and fallen short the glory of God, Jesus Christ, in that fashion. The very reason no man could do what was done by God through His Son. Yet a ray of light and hope is I am not bound to that sin any longer for my Master has delivered me, and I am not destined to continuance in that sin. We are all being shaped closer to the perfection of Christ, and every act of repentance from sin strengthens us in our struggle. This struggle begins with the reshaping and renewing of the mind. To think we are still tied to sin is to be mastered by it, but to believe in the renewing Spirit, that is Christ Jesus, is to die to the flesh and to walk according to the Spirit.
Romans 6:5-7
Romans 8:6-8

 

[Episkopos]

Here I want to refer to John.
John 1:29 NASB
The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
In accordance to the gospel, Jesus "takes away the sin of the world". No longer is sin covered as it was in the old covenant, now under the new covenant sin is taken away. We are no longer bound to sin and it's penalty which is death for we have been delivered and overcame sin and death.

Those who say we are still sinners are mastered by sin, and do not have the Spirit in them.
Is that to say we, those who do have the Spirit, never sin again? My prayer for all is yes, yet I am a realist. I have failed and fallen short the glory of God, Jesus Christ, in that fashion. The very reason no man could do what was done by God through His Son. Yet a ray of light and hope is I am not bound to that sin any longer for my Master has delivered me, and I am not destined to continuance in that sin. We are all being shaped closer to the perfection of Christ, and every act of repentance from sin strengthens us in our struggle. This struggle begins with the reshaping and renewing of the mind. To think we are still tied to sin is to be mastered by it, but to believe in the renewing Spirit, that is Christ Jesus, is to die to the flesh and to walk according to the Spirit.
Romans 6:5-7
Romans 8:6-8

Amen! :)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Episkopos,
I tried to better understand your views and identified the points that concerned me. But instead of providing a full disclosure (which your long ramblings didn't obviously) you jumped to conclusions, and digressed into veiled condemnation and obfuscation. It is now apparent to me that that you have formed an opinion about yourself that you don't want challenged or disclosed. That is fine with me. I was simply trying to understand. I will leave you in your self-righteousness and denial of your sin. You have many words, but little wisdom.

 

[Episkopos]

Episkopos,
I tried to better understand your views and identified the points that concerned me. But instead of providing a full disclosure (which your long ramblings didn't obviously) you jumped to conclusions, and digressed into veiled condemnation and obfuscation. It is now apparent to me that that you have formed an opinion about yourself that you don't want challenged or disclosed. That is fine with me. I was simply trying to understand. I will leave you in your self-righteousness and denial of your sin. You have many words, but little wisdom.

You are quite the hasty one. I don't remember having more than one or two small responses with you. Have you possibly changed your username?

 

[aspen]

Episkopos,
I tried to better understand your views and identified the points that concerned me. But instead of providing a full disclosure (which your long ramblings didn't obviously) you jumped to conclusions, and digressed into veiled condemnation and obfuscation. It is now apparent to me that that you have formed an opinion about yourself that you don't want challenged or disclosed. That is fine with me. I was simply trying to understand. I will leave you in your self-righteousness and denial of your sin. You have many words, but little wisdom.

I gave you a point for 'obfuscation'

 

[Episkopos]

Many think the flesh nature is too strong for God. They will never say it but instead hide the fact that they believe Adam has triumphed over Christ.They say that there is no way on earth for Christ to defeat Adam....not even by His death and resurrection. Faith in sin seems boundless...faith in holiness seems non-existant. What did Jesus say about the end times again?

 

[Shirley]

I feel you all are closer in thinking than what you think you are. Seems to me that Episkopos has a burden for the convicted sinners who sit in church, never having been saved but thinking that they were. This is due to not studying the bible at all or being taught the truth at all. I was raised where people thought that once they were sanctified that they could not sin. Then they got all self righteous. I do not think Episkopos is self righteous. Truthfully though I think I would have done tons better if i had never even heard of a sinless life. One person's idea of what sin is is not the same as anothers. I know people who think they are saved when they pay no attention to God at all. They do not love God or have anything to do with him and think they are on their way to heaven b/c they said a sentence. "I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ therefore i'm saved." Now they can do what ever they like.

I personally walked away from God b/c of self righteous people. I thought if i had a temptation i was backslidden. I gave up b/c of self righteous talk. I'm way to honest to say I don't sin. On the other hand i want to live a victorious life and do not wish to live in defeat! My desire is to be over flowing with the power God gives! My desire is to do the things Christ did! To truly be a child of God and to know what that means! So little truth out there and takes so long to sort through and know the truth! The bottom line is you have a relationship with God and believe his promises or you are not Christs!

 

[Prentis]

I feel you all are closer in thinking than what you think you are. Seems to me that Episkopos has a burden for the convicted sinners who sit in church, never having been saved but thinking that they were. This is due to not studying the bible at all or being taught the truth at all. I was raised where people thought that once they were sanctified that they could not sin. Then they got all self righteous. I do not think Episkopos is self righteous. Truthfully though I think I would have done tons better if i had never even heard of a sinless life. One person's idea of what sin is is not the same as anothers. I know people who think they are saved when they pay no attention to God at all. They do not love God or have anything to do with him and think they are on their way to heaven b/c they said a sentence. "I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ therefore i'm saved." Now they can do what ever they like.

I personally walked away from God b/c of self righteous people. I thought if i had a temptation i was backslidden. I gave up b/c of self righteous talk. I'm way to honest to say I don't sin. On the other hand i want to live a victorious life and do not wish to live in defeat! My desire is to be over flowing with the power God gives! My desire is to do the things Christ did! To truly be a child of God and to know what that means! So little truth out there and takes so long to sort through and know the truth! The bottom line is you have a relationship with God and believe his promises or you are not Christs!

Amen!

Unless we see what God says, and believe it, we can have no part with him. If we look at it and say it's idealistic... And somehow still claim to believe, we are fooling ourselves!

Does an all-powerful God have idealistic standards? Only for those who don't believe he is all-powerful.

That would be called unbelief. Many hide their unbelief behind some 'realism', but they are actually hiding it in the reality of the flesh, not believing in that of the Spirit, the kingdom. They walk by sight and NOT by faith... And twist the scriptures to fit them with what their eyes see. Unbelievers in believers' clothes!

 

[aspen]

Many think the flesh nature is too strong for God. They will never say it but instead hide the fact that they believe Adam has triumphed over Christ.They say that there is no way on earth for Christ to defeat Adam....not even by His death and resurrection. Faith in sin seems boundless...faith in holiness seems non-existant. What did Jesus say about the end times again?

If this is what you have interpreted from my posts - I am not communicating clearly. I do no believe Adam has triumphed over Christ - if I did, I would say so. I believe sanctification is a process, not an instantaneous, one time event.

I feel you all are closer in thinking than what you think you are. Seems to me that Episkopos has a burden for the convicted sinners who sit in church, never having been saved but thinking that they were. This is due to not studying the bible at all or being taught the truth at all. I was raised where people thought that once they were sanctified that they could not sin. Then they got all self righteous. I do not think Episkopos is self righteous. Truthfully though I think I would have done tons better if i had never even heard of a sinless life. One person's idea of what sin is is not the same as anothers. I know people who think they are saved when they pay no attention to God at all. They do not love God or have anything to do with him and think they are on their way to heaven b/c they said a sentence. "I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ therefore i'm saved." Now they can do what ever they like.

I personally walked away from God b/c of self righteous people. I thought if i had a temptation i was backslidden. I gave up b/c of self righteous talk. I'm way to honest to say I don't sin. On the other hand i want to live a victorious life and do not wish to live in defeat! My desire is to be over flowing with the power God gives! My desire is to do the things Christ did! To truly be a child of God and to know what that means! So little truth out there and takes so long to sort through and know the truth! The bottom line is you have a relationship with God and believe his promises or you are not Christs!

Nicely stated Shirley. I think all parties (including me) have been using doctrinal statements to describe a multi-faceted process - perhaps they are not conflicting POV, but a paradox. Admittedly, I am a bit tired of the subject at this point.

 

[Episkopos]

If this is what you have interpreted from my posts - I am not communicating clearly. I do no believe Adam has triumphed over Christ - if I did, I would say so. I believe sanctification is a process, not an instantaneous, one time event.

I agree that sanctification is a process...part of the process of our salvation from this world and this life. But consider this...when we are forgiven in Christ through His word...we are cleansed from all unrighteousness

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Are you with me so far?

We are actually made pure in that moment.

Now that we have been made pure, the rest is to remain....and I say remain...in THAT presence in order to NOT get our garments dirty again.

So rather than preaching an effort to get perfect...which I have never said we can do...we are to abide or remain in Christ by faith. If we look only to Jeus then He makes it possible for us to REMAIN in Him...not forgetting who we really are and who He really is.

The power of the word is the Holy Spirit. The keeping power of God in Christ is to be overflowing with the Spirit. We set our affections on Christ and His kingdom so that we don't HAVE TO sin anymore. It may take time to realize we have this victory...and we may be attacked for being the messenger of such a victory (did they not want to kill Caleb and Joshua for wanting to enter the promised land?).....but the truth has power behind it so that we can walk IN CHrist and LIKE Christ in this world.

1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

It is enough to believe in the gospel and what is plainly written.....believe and be victorious.

Would not the apostles be hated by the majority of Christians today?

 

[aspen]

Episkopos - what you are describing in the first part of your post is justification - we are definitely declared righteous before God! In otherwords, God no longer holds our sins against us - we are then ready to spend the rest of our lives being sanctified - taught how to live as we were created to live - unselfishly / empathetic / loving / forgiving towards others because we realize that He loves us and has forgiven us. This requires that we confess our sins daily because it is the part of the process of self-knowledge that aids in our eventual transformation and redemption. We no longer need to allow our guilt to become shame - instead we confess freely to God who loves us - this is what A&E could not do - instead of confessing their sin, they held on to them and were clothed in shame. As a result, they were no longer perfect creatures who committed an evil act - they actually became evil and God had to let them go for a time.

 

[justaname]

For some sanctification is a quick process, others it can take time. It is not for us to judge the progress of ourselves or others, yet to strengthen and encourage one another along this process. I believe time of progression for sanctification is won and lost in the battlefield of the mind. God's ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts. Isaiah 55:8-9
We must learn to think differently. Romans 12:2
I see sin as a process, starting with thought, with that thought being a sin within itself. After thought it manifests into action.
I make a conscious effort to not think evil thoughts be it lust, to covet, cursing, or things of the like. From this standpoint the fruits of the Spirit are manifested easier as my old system of thought is abandoned (flesh nature) for the new one I am able to receive through Christ and His teachings. (Spirit)
With all of that said, understand that through READING THE BIBLE God is able to reveal Himself to you through His HolySpirit. No other book on the planet can strengthen you better, or prepare you for your battle against Satan and sin. It was through scripture Jesus refuted Satan, allow Him to be the example. Understand what it is you believe, by believing what God tells you through His holy writings.

 

[Episkopos]

Episkopos - what you are describing in the first part of your post is justification - we are definitely declared righteous before God! In otherwords, God no longer holds our sins against us - we are then ready to spend the rest of our lives being sanctified - taught how to live as we were created to live - unselfishly / empathetic / loving / forgiving towards others because we realize that He loves us and has forgiven us. This requires that we confess our sins daily because it is the part of the process of self-knowledge that aids in our eventual transformation and redemption. We no longer need to allow our guilt to become shame - instead we confess freely to God who loves us - this is what A&E could not do - instead of confessing their sin, they held on to them and were clothed in shame. As a result, they were no longer perfect creatures who committed an evil act - they actually became evil and God had to let them go for a time.

....And as babes we will need to confess our sins of failure to apprehend His means of victory. The reality is that we need not depart from His presence...ever! Once we realize this and remain in Christ then we cease from sin altogether. We don't live in a perpetual repentance...but in the victory paid in full at Calvary! :)

 

[aspen]

....And as babes we will need to confess our sins of failure to apprehend His means of victory. The reality is that we need not depart from His presence...ever! Once we realize this and remain in Christ then we cease from sin altogether. We don't live in a perpetual repentance...but in the victory paid in full at Calvary! :)

I think you are expressing a fantastic ideal. I try to see the world as it is, not as it should be. Ideals are great to strive for, however seeing reality for what it is promotes growth.

 

[Jake]

I think you are expressing a fantastic ideal. I try to see the world as it is, not as it should be. Ideals are great to strive for, however seeing reality for what it is promotes growth.

He is stating what it is for believers, what we see is not our reality, Aspen! We are not of this world, we are seated in the heavenlies, the Kingdom of God lives within us. We have His divine nature. We live by faith NOT by sight. What is impossible for man, is possible with God! He did not leave us an orphans in this world, yet it seems people believe He did, we are not alone, we have the Supreme, God Almighty, El Shaddai, living within us.

Seeing what is in the world promotes defeat and helplessness, but looking to God, instead of our circumstances, that is what promotes growth, He matures us as we look to Him and know He is the God of the impossible.

 

[Prentis]

I think you are expressing a fantastic ideal. I try to see the world as it is, not as it should be. Ideals are great to strive for, however seeing reality for what it is promotes growth.

Is it an ideal that we can walk in the presence of God? When it says we have access by the blood to the sanctuary, the presence of God, is it just a nice thought?

Aspen, it sounds to me like you're just saying "I haven't seen it, so it must not exist, let's live in reality!" But then you are walking by sight!

You are judging the Bible's standard to be idealistic because of your own experience... You have put your experience above the Bible.

He is stating what it is for believers, what we see is not our reality, Aspen! We are not of this world, we are seated in the heavenlies, the Kingdom of God lives within us. We have His divine nature. We live by faith NOT by sight. What is impossible for man, is possible with God! He did not leave us an orphans in this world, yet it seems people believe He did, we are not alone, we have the Supreme, God Almighty, El Shaddai, living within us.

Seeing what is in the world promotes defeat and helplessness, but looking to God, instead of our circumstances, that is what promotes growth, He matures us as we look to Him and know He is the God of the impossible.

Well said!

 

[aspen]

Is it an ideal that we can walk in the presence of God? When it says we have access by the blood to the sanctuary, the presence of God, is it just a nice thought?

Aspen, it sounds to me like you're just saying "I haven't seen it, so it must not exist, let's live in reality!" But then you are walking by sight!

You are judging the Bible's standard to be idealistic because of your own experience... You have put your experience above the Bible.

Seriously? Prentis - I am not sure if this is your youth showing or not, but not everything is 'all or nothing'. I can believe in the reality of God's presence in my life AND recognize the reality of sin in every Christian around me, including myself.

I have enjoyed reading the majority of your posts, but I think you might want to re-evaluate you understanding of the role of sin in the lives of Christians. There really is nothing more arrogant than claiming that you do not sin. It rings hollow in the ears of of people who know Christ and those who do not. If God made Christians perfect, our perfect morality and love would be reflected in our rate of divorce, and crimes committed - yet Christians are no different than the rest of the world because we still commit sins.

Why does the NT recommend confessing your sins to one another if we have no sin?

Also, don't you think it is a bit self serving to claim that any Christian who sins is simply not a Christian? It is like those signs that say

1. I am always right, if not, please refer to number 2
2. Please refer to number one.

It reminds me of the same circular reasoning that 'once saved, always saved' folks use to explain the lapsed Christian - 'obviously, they were never a Christian'.