Unitarianism vs Trinitarianism

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Wrangler

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John 8:24-25, 58, is very clear, if anyone does not believe that Jesus Christ is Yahweh, Almighty God, they will NOT be in heaven, but lost in their sins in eternal punishment.

there are ZERO exceptions, and NO arguments!
There would be ZERO exceptions, and NO arguments IF what you said was true.
24 This is why I said you will die with your sins unforgiven. If you don't have faith in me for who I am,[a] you will die, and your sins will not be forgiven.”

25 “Who are you?” they asked Jesus.

Jesus answered, “I am exactly who I told you at the beginning.


The Big Reveal of Jesus ministry is NOT that he was God incarnate but the Messiah. 3 times he confessed this: to the woman at the well, affirming Peter’s confession and to Caiaphas; his great “I am.” Mark 14:61-62 (VOICE) High Priest:Are You God’s Anointed, the Liberating King, the Son of the Blessed One? Jesus: I am. Jesus did not die because he claimed to be God. This verse explicitly teaches that Jesus died because he claimed to be the Son of God.

You want to subordinate explicit verses to the verses where you infer, read your trinitarian doctrine into unitarian text. That's bad form. From What Are Explicit and Implicit Facts in Reading Comprehension? | Synonym
The word "explicit" means clear and fully expressed. If something is explicit, there is no question as to what it means, no hidden connotations and no room for misunderstanding. If a fact is explicit in a reading comprehension passage, it is stated outright. For example, if the first sentence of a story is "It was a dark and stormy night," that is an explicit fact. There is no room for debate; the reader cannot be confused and think that the story is set on a sunny morning.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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There would be ZERO exceptions, and NO arguments IF what you said was true.
24 This is why I said you will die with your sins unforgiven. If you don't have faith in me for who I am,[a] you will die, and your sins will not be forgiven.”

25 “Who are you?” they asked Jesus.

Jesus answered, “I am exactly who I told you at the beginning.


The Big Reveal of Jesus ministry is NOT that he was God incarnate but the Messiah. 3 times he confessed this: to the woman at the well, affirming Peter’s confession and to Caiaphas; his great “I am.” Mark 14:61-62 (VOICE) High Priest:Are You God’s Anointed, the Liberating King, the Son of the Blessed One? Jesus: I am. Jesus did not die because he claimed to be God. This verse explicitly teaches that Jesus died because he claimed to be the Son of God.

You want to subordinate explicit verses to the verses where you infer, read your trinitarian doctrine into unitarian text. That's bad form. From What Are Explicit and Implicit Facts in Reading Comprehension? | Synonym
The word "explicit" means clear and fully expressed. If something is explicit, there is no question as to what it means, no hidden connotations and no room for misunderstanding. If a fact is explicit in a reading comprehension passage, it is stated outright. For example, if the first sentence of a story is "It was a dark and stormy night," that is an explicit fact. There is no room for debate; the reader cannot be confused and think that the story is set on a sunny morning.

dealt with months ago, John 8:24, 28, 58 - Jesus Christ IS YHWH
 
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Matthias

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It does't matter to them that Jesus did not teach the trinity. It does not matter to them that Jesus said only true worshippers, worship the Father, John 4:23. It doesn't matter to them that Jesus taught us to pray to a single God - who we relate to as Father.

It doesn’t matter to them. The question is why, and the answer varies from person to person.

I was raised trinitarian. It didn’t matter to me - in fact, it didn’t even occur to me - until I attended a Bible study given by my trinitarian pastor which touched ever so lightly on the history of the doctrine. That was the spark that lit the slow burning fuse.

I was Protestant; Southern Baptist. The writings of the early Church Fathers meant nothing to me. I didn’t know anything about them. I couldn’t have named any of them. I had never heard of the Council of Nicaea, or any of the other Councils. I was certain prior to studying Church history that the doctrine of the Trinity came from the Bible, not from the Church.

The easy part was learning the history of the doctrine. The hard part was deciding what to do about it after I did.

To learn the history of the doctrine I had to turn to a formerly unthinkable source, the Roman Catholics. What I found there I found confirmed by a surprising source, Protestant academia. That a theological transition occurred is historically substantiated. It all came together for me with the excellent question Dr. Brown (a Protestant) asked his readers; a question that I asked myself many years before hearing him ask it: Is it a legitimate theological transition?

From Jerusalem to Nicaea. (Dr. Brown also insisted on Chalcedon.)

Beginning the journey with the unitarianism of Israel and ending with the trinitarianism of the revised / clarified Nicene Creed. (Chalcedon having answered later questions and challenges which arose about the God-man.)

The expected answer was yes; why was my answer no? Jesus.

I‘ve enjoyed this thread more than most because a trinitarian, and a Protestant at that, is approaching the doctrine of the Trinity from a historical perspective. That doesn’t happen very often.

I suppose that's the thing about idolatry; facts don't matter.

It wasn’t until I could see that Jesus himself isn’t a trinitarian, that I asked myself why I was.

Jesus is a Jew. The God of the Jew / the God of Jesus isn’t the Trinity.

The God of the Jew / the God of Jesus or the gods (idols) of the nations. Those are the alternatives.

I sincerely thought as a trinitarian that I had chosen the God of the Jew. In fact and in truth, I had chosen not the God of the Jew but the God of the trinitarians.

I'm sure you've noticed their invoking the Ad Homenim that anyone who does not believe as they do are not Spiritually mature. That necessarily includes Jesus.

I confess that I did the same when I was a trinitarian.

What would Jesus, the mediator, say to his God and my God about that?

I believe he said something along the lines of this about me: Forgive him Father, for he didn’t know what he was doing. He does know now and he has repented. He is one with us now, just as you and I are one.
 
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Matthias

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Is Jesus himself identified as God in scripture? Unitarians typically insist that he isn’t. I disagree with them.

In that some things which are said about God himself I see are also said about Jesus himself, I acknowledge that Jesus himself is identified in some sense as God in scripture.

How many passages in scripture do trinitarian scholars assert identify Jesus as God? The number varies, but in every case the number is quite small. It’s instructive for readers to consult the lists which trinitarian scholars themselves provide and to note that all of the lists contain certain verses while some of the lists omit certain of those verses.

How can Jesus himself in any way be identified as God and yet not be God himself? Trinitarian scholars know how; the average trinitarian, binitarian and unitarian thinks it an impossibility.
 

Matthias

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Unitarianism vs. trinitarianism. Virtually everyone understands that. (We could toss binitarianism into that conversation too; perhaps in another thread.)

Unitarianism vs. unitarianism. Most people, having little interest in trinitarian history, and less still in unitarian history, are woefully ignorant about that.

Be that as it may, to get to trinitarianism the reader must first go through Judaism; which, as para trinitarian ministries such as Jews For Jesus rightly point out, is the religion of the Messiah.

The Messiah. The true crux of the entire matter.
 

Matthias

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For those who appreciate irony:

To get to trinitarianism the reader not only has to go through Judaism (which isn’t trinitarian) and Jesus (who isn’t a trinitarian) but also through Ante Nicene Church Fathers (who weren’t trinitarian).

It’s easy to be trinitarian; it’s hard to be trinitarian.

It’s easy to be unitarian; it’s hard to be unitarian.

* Shout out to binitarians *
 

Matthias

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“The problem of the Trinity was a practical interest of the Church as the congregation of believers. It began with the overwhelming conviction, confirmed by Scripture, that the presence of Christ in the Church is like that of the Father Himself. The early Christians prayed to Christ as they prayed to God. Very naturally they had to do some thinking on the relation of Christ to the one God.”

(J.L. Neve, A History of Christian Thought, Vol. 1, p. 106)

Well said.

My question to our trinitarian (Lutheran) author, “Who is doing that thinking exercise today? Who is working through what those early Christians worked through?”
 

Matthias

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Jhn 10:30
I and my Father are one.
Jhn 10:33

The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Do you agree with his enemies?

Do you say as they did, that Jesus, a man, made himself God?
 

Matthias

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John 8:38

That’s the reason his enemies didn’t understand him.

“Don’t ever side with the enemies of Jesus Christ.” - one of my trinitarian professors

The enemies of Jesus were not right. The enemies of Jesus were wrong.
 

Matthias

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Jesus didn’t make himself God. The one God, his God, made Jesus God.
 
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RLT63

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@RLT63, in the fulfilment view that I have is that Satan was bound after the stoning of Steven (right that was his name?), because after that the Gospel had went and spread far and wide. It could be wrong. My view really comes from the promise of Jesus, to return in that generation along with all the signs that went with it and they are found in secular accounts such as Cassio Dio, Tacitus, Josephus, and there was one more person that just slips my mind.... Suetonius. To go after that kind of information is quite daunting to say the least.
Ephesians 2:2
 

MatthewG

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Ephesians 2:2

Are you wanting to know about that verse or something? Ephesians was a Letter written by Paul to those in Ephesus.

Made Alive in Christ​

2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Ephesians 1:1-3

New International Version

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To God’s holy people in Ephesus,[a] the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Praise for Spiritual Blessings in Christ​

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
 

MatthewG

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I dont doubt people are against the bible or Jesus by their own choice - and choose to do darkness. Rather than what God had previously purposed for them which is new life in Christ Jesus, to do good things of light by the spirit.
 

MatthewG

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I also dont believe that Satan was done away with when Ephesians and most of the Apostolic Record was written, until Revelation, but he could have been bound with-in the subcontext of the time alloted for the Gospel to spread to the ends of the world before the end of the Age of Material REligion which Jesus replaces - before the end had come, upon the nation of Israel.

John warned the people about the wrath to come,

Luke 3​

New International Version​

John the Baptist Prepares the Way​

3 In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar—when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene— 2 during the high-priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the wilderness. 3 He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 4 As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet:
“A voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.
5 Every valley shall be filled in,
every mountain and hill made low.
The crooked roads shall become straight,
the rough ways smooth.
6 And all people will see God’s salvation.’”[a]
7 John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 9 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”​


I believe this was a foretelling that Jews had known about in which Malachi promised to come when John prepared the way for Jesus in the Spirit of Elijah wasn't it?

Malachi 4​

New International Version​

Judgment and Covenant Renewal​

4 [a]“Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2 But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves. 3 Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty.
4 “Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.
5 “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”​

So because of these things, the bounding of Satan would have to come about with-in that Generation. And not some 1000 year literal interpertation as many subscribe too.

As Jesus stated here to the 4 disciples he had been talking to openly and honestly with full bluntness of saying with-in a generation, this is a choice on individuals to choose to decide does Jesus message for those people in that day, all apply to us now today, if he has promised to come get them first? One day we will die pass on and go on to be judged and placed either outside or inside the kingdom from my understanding, but the wrath of God -

the Wrath of God was for those disobedient who ended up having the Son of God killed on the cross also from my perspecitve,

That destruction promised in Malachi came upon them with-in the generation I believe in 70Ad.

Matthew 24

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”



26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.


Even though there were many people who did not repent in that day in age, total destruction was promised to fall upon them and fire is alotted to in the message. Everything was destroyed by fire when Jerusalem was sieged even the Temple.
 
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RLT63

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I also dont believe that Satan was done away with when Ephesians and most of the Apostolic Record was written, until Revelation, but he could have been bound with-in the subcontext of the time alloted for the Gospel to spread to the ends of the world before the end of the Age of Material REligion which Jesus replaces - before the end had come, upon the nation of Israel.

John warned the people about the wrath to come,

Luke 3​

New International Version​

John the Baptist Prepares the Way​

3 In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar—when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene— 2 during the high-priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the wilderness. 3 He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 4 As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet:
“A voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.
5 Every valley shall be filled in,
every mountain and hill made low.
The crooked roads shall become straight,
the rough ways smooth.
6 And all people will see God’s salvation.’”[a]
7 John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 9 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”​


I believe this was a foretelling that Jews had known about in which Malachi promised to come when John prepared the way for Jesus in the Spirit of Elijah wasn't it?

Malachi 4​

New International Version​

Judgment and Covenant Renewal​

4 [a]“Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2 But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves. 3 Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty.
4 “Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.
5 “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”​

So because of these things, the bounding of Satan would have to come about with-in that Generation. And not some 1000 year literal interpertation as many subscribe too.

As Jesus stated here to the 4 disciples he had been talking to openly and honestly with full bluntness of saying with-in a generation, this is a choice on individuals to choose to decide does Jesus message for those people in that day, all apply to us now today, if he has promised to come get them first? One day we will die pass on and go on to be judged and placed either outside or inside the kingdom from my understanding, but the wrath of God -

the Wrath of God was for those disobedient who ended up having the Son of God killed on the cross also from my perspecitve,

That destruction promised in Malachi came upon them with-in the generation I believe in 70Ad.

Matthew 24

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”



26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.


Even though there were many people who did not repent in that day in age, total destruction was promised to fall upon them and fire is alotted to in the message. Everything was destroyed by fire when Jerusalem was sieged even the Temple.
This conversation needs to take place in another thread.
 
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MatthewG

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Sure thing bud. Ill unwatch this thread it was fun to share freely either way while I had the chance.

:)
 
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