Unitarianism vs Trinitarianism

[Matthias]

“… it’s own conception of the Trinity was looked upon by the Fathers themselves as a combination of Jewish monotheism and pagan polytheism, except that to them this combination was a good combination; in fact, it was to them an ideal combination of what is best in Jewish monotheism and of what is best in pagan polytheism, and consequently they gloried in it and pointed to it as evidence of the truth of their belief. We have on this the testimony of Gregory of Nyssa - one of the great figures in the history of the philosophic formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity - and his words are repeated by John of Damascus - the last of the Church Fathers.

The Christian conception of God, argues Gregory of Nyssa, is neither the polytheism of the Greeks nor the monotheism of the Jews and consequently it must be true, for ’the truth passes in the mean between these two conceptions, destroying each heresy, and yet, accepting what is useful to it from each. The Jewish dogma is destroyed by the acceptance of the Word and by the belief in the Spirit, while the polytheistic error of the Greek school is made to vanish by the unity of the nature abrogating this imagination of plurality.’”

(Henry Austryn Wolfson, The Philosophy of the Church Fathers, Vol. I, pp. 362-363, Second Edition, Revised)

The conception, the heresy of, polytheism, indeed.

The conception, the heresy of, Jewish monotheism, wowzer!

Trinitarianism isn’t the original Christian conception of God.

Jewish monotheism is the original Christian conception of God.

The monotheism of trinitarianism is opposed to the monotheism of the Messiah.

 

[Wrangler]

Yes. But trinitarianism destroys the Jewish monotheism of Jesus.

It isn’t the same monotheism.

I've noticed the co-opting of terms also.

When it is convenient, they say they believe in one God. At other times, it is convenient to suppose a number other than one applies to the Creator.

 

[Matthias]

@Matthias, I too would like a clarification of your beliefs. Maybe I asked you this before. Do you consider yourself to be a Messianic Jew? If not, what is your understanding of who Jesus is?

No, I don’t consider myself to be a Messianic Jew. I’m a Christian whose monotheism is the monotheism of the Jews (i.e. the one God is the Father alone.)

A brief statement of my understanding of Jesus: He is a supernaturally begotten human person, the Messiah, the Son of the one God.

If you have any additional questions concerning what I believe about Jesus, please feel free to ask

 

[Matthias]

I've noticed the co-opting of terms also.

It’s unavoidable. For them not to do so would be to acknowledge that trinitarianism isn’t - to use the phrasing of Dr. Harold O.J. Brown - “the legitimate daughter of Judaism”.

When it is convenient, they say they believe in one God. At other times, it is convenient to suppose a number other than one applies to the Creator.

One of trinitarianisms most famous 4th century theologians - virtually unknown by the average Protestant - is Basil of Caesarea, one of the Cappadocian Fathers.

”We confess one God not in number but in nature.” - Basil

Epistle 8

www.liturgies.net

 

[Wrangler]

No, I don’t consider myself to be a Messianic Jew. I’m a Christian whose monotheism is the monotheism of the Jews (i.e. the one God is the Father alone.)

A brief statement of my understanding of Jesus: He is a supernaturally begotten human person, the Messiah, the Son of the one God.

If you have any additional questions concerning what I believe about Jesus, please feel free to ask

Yes, how is your belief different from a Messianic Jew?

 

[Wrangler]

”We confess one God not in number but in nature.” - Basil

One is a number?! What kind of contradictory statement is this. I too like square circles. Huh?

 

[Matthias]

Yes, how is your belief different from a Messianic Jew?

There are two branches in Messianic Judaism: a trinitarian branch (which is the larger branch) and a unitarian branch (which is the smaller branch). The difference between them in that regard is obvious. My connection with them would be with the smaller branch.

What both branches have in common is the belief that they must keep the law of Moses.

That separates me from the smaller branch.

 

[Matthias]

One is a number?! What kind of contradictory statement is this. I too like square circles. Huh?

Listen to what the trinitarians say to us, to non-trinitarians - it‘s something to be believed, not something to be understood.

 

[Matthias]

Yes, how is your belief different from a Messianic Jew?

A personal story. One day I sat down to have lunch with a Messianic Jew (Uri Marcus, a leader in the unitarian branch) at a theological conference. There were many food choices but one of the choices was pork. A platter containing a variety of meats was placed on the table we were sitting at together. The man was outraged, caused a public scene (I’ll leave it at that - it was just short of turning over the table) and stormed out of the conference. I’ve spoken with him since, but I’ve never met with him again. (I doubt that he would agree to an in-person meeting with a “law breaker”.)

I had nothing whatsoever to do with planning the menu. After he left, I selected and enjoyed a ham sandwich. I would have made a different choice if he had remained at the table.

 

[GEN2REV]

Jesus is a Jewish monotheist.

You believe in a deity which he doesn’t.

You're all over the map with your Jewish claims.

Now you want to go with Jesus didn't believe that He was God (the Messiah)?

 

[Wrangler]

There are two branches in Messianic Judaism: a trinitarian branch (which is the larger branch) and a unitarian branch (which is the smaller branch). The difference between them in that regard is obvious. My connection with them would be with the smaller branch.

What both branches have in common is the belief that they must keep the law of Moses.

That separates me from the smaller branch.

Thank you sir. BTW, when you say the Law of Moses, do you mean more than the 10C?

 

[Matthias]

Thank you sir. BTW, when you say the Law of Moses, do you mean more than the 10C?

Yes. A Messianic Jew would tell us that there are 613 commandments in the Hebrew Bible. To stop at 10 would be unthinkable to a Messianic Jew.

Those are very good questions. Thank you for asking me about them.

 

[Wrangler]

Yes. A Messianic Jew would tell us that there are 613 commandments in the Hebrew Bible. To stop at 10 would be unthinkable to a Messianic Jew.

Those are very good questions. Thank you for asking me about them.

You are welcome. I love to learn, especially about different denominations.

What is your view of the New Covenant?

 

[Matthias]

You are welcome. I love to learn, especially about different denominations.

If you’re interested in learning more @Ben Abraham would be a good member of the forum to speak with. He represents the larger (the trinitarian) branch.

What is your view of the New Covenant?

Jesus has inaugurated it. I would have liked to have discussed it with Uri Marcus, but lunch happened before I had the opportunity.

I had intended to premise that aborted conversation with the suggestion that “Jesus is greater than Moses, the prophet like Moses, the new Moses”.

 

[RLT63]

This article discusses Unitarianism and Trinitarianism. This subject seems to be the main point of debate and discussion on this forum. Is Jesus God? Or merely "a god"? (Unitarian vs Trinitarian) - Berean Patriot
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Is Jesus God? Or merely “a god”? (Unitarian vs Trinitarian)
Is Jesus God? Or merely “a god”? (Unitarian vs Trinitarian)
Berean Patriot February 22, 2018 Faith Articles 5 Comments
Is Jesus God? Or is he merely “a god”? Yeah, that’s a big topic but we’re going to take a stab at it today. And by today, I mean the last few weeks/months while I was researching it.

The most commonly encountered group that believes Jesus isn’t God (capital “G”) are the Jehovah’s Witnesses. However, the belief is technically known as “Unitarianism” and it’s been around since before Jesus died (the Jews). By contrast, the Trinity doctrine teaches that there is One God, who exists in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. (And don’t worry, I’ve got a great analogy later that’ll help it make perfect sense.)

This article is long, but you can use it as a reference instead of reading it straight through. Toward that end, I have organized it like a reference book. The table of contents below is clickable and will take you to the associated parts of the article.



Contents show

Trinity > Unitarianism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

plato.stanford.edu

 

[Matthias]

Trinity > Unitarianism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

plato.stanford.edu

You didn’t respond when I asked if you had read the same sources entry for “Trinitarianism”. I don’t know why, and don’t know why you would or might answer this question when you didn’t answer that question, but here it is: Have you read it?

Thank you for posting both of them for consideration by our readers.

 

[RLT63]

You didn’t respond when I asked if you had read the same sources entry for “Trinitarianism”. I don’t know why, and don’t know why you would or might answer this question when you didn’t answer that question, but here it is: Have you read it?

Thank you for posting both of them for consideration by our readers.

Yes I read both and more. Subordinationism interests me.

 

[Matthias]

Yes I read both and more.

My hope is that others will follow your example. You’ve done us all a good service by providing them. Now it’s up to individuals to decide for themselves whether or not to read them and then what to with the information.

It falls outside the scope of this thread but have you considered a similar thread comparing and contrasting “Trinitarianism vs. Binitarianism”?

 

[RLT63]

My hope is that others will follow your example. You’ve done us all a good service by providing them. Now it’s up to individuals to decide for themselves whether or not to read them and then what to with the information.

Thanks. On another thread someone suggested I was ignorant and couldn't think for myself because I posted a link.

 

[Matthias]

Thanks. On another thread someone suggested I was ignorant and couldn't think for myself because I posted a link.

If I had seen it I would have come to your defense. (Maybe you would prefer that I not.)

What was your reply to that person?