Romans 11:25-27. New prophecy about the future or old prophecy about an ongoing reality?

[Truth7t7]

Not a single word in Rom. 9:6-8 is concerning the Church! Paul is debunking their claims of salvation.

Notice in vs. 7 neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they Children.

The word "neither" carries from vs 6, "for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" is concerning them not being "children" the children of God.

vs 6 "for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." All of Israel are not saved.

vs 7 "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they children." They are not saved because they are of Abraham.

vs 8 "That is, they which be of the flesh, these are not the children of God." They are not saved because they are Circumcised Jews.

This is what the Jews believed! Paul is saying they are not saved by the mere fact of being the seed of Abraham, they are not saved by the circumcision of the flesh being a Jew.

Two Israel's are seen below "TWO", simple, clear, easy to understand

1.) Israel The Church, Children Of The Promised Seed, both Jew & Gentile

2.) Israel Of The Flesh "Jews", They Aren't The Children Of God

Romans 9:6-8KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[Truth7t7]

The only problem with that is, that's not what God meant.

Psalm 78.69 He built his sanctuary like the heights, like the earth that he established forever.

Psalm 104.5 He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.

Eccles 1.4 Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.

The destruction of items down to their elements mean for the people in Bible times what happens when a fire destroys. It turns everything to charcoal and carbon monoxide or its basic elements. It does not imply the *planet itself* explodes.

We know the earth is fragile in appearance, because it is thought that in a "random" universe, anything can happen. But we read in the Scriptures that God's word holds everything together. God intends, I believe, to restore solidity to the earth, rather than start over from scratch. "Re-Creation" does not have to mean a different creation. It can refer to a reformation of preexisting material to be made new.

The Earth will remain forever, its called "New Earth" not Pluto, Mars, Jupiter, Moon, Saturn, but "Earth"

A New Creation, Behold, I Make All Things New

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

 

[Charlie24]

Two Israel's are seen below "TWO", simple, clear, easy to understand

1.) Israel The Church, Children Of The Promised Seed, both Jew & Gentile

2.) Israel Of The Flesh "Jews", They Aren't The Children Of God

Romans 9:6-8KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The flesh is the reference to the covenant of God with Abraham through circumcision. This was claimed as the national salvation by the Jews, being the seed of Abraham and the covenant of circumcision was their salvation, so they said.

But Paul said no, Israel is not saved this way.

 

[Truth7t7]

The flesh is the reference to the covenant of God with Abraham through circumcision. This was claimed as the national salvation by the Jews, being the seed of Abraham and the covenant of circumcision was their salvation, so they said.

But Paul said no, Israel is not saved this way.

I Strongly Disagree, Paul Was Clearly Identifying "The True Israel Of God" Being "The Church" Children Of The Promised Seed

Two Israel's are seen below "TWO", simple, clear, easy to understand

1.) Israel The Church, Children Of The Promised Seed, both Jew & Gentile

2.) Israel Of The Flesh "Jews", They Aren't The Children Of God

Romans 9:6-8KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Earth will remain forever, its called "New Earth" not Pluto, Mars, Jupiter, Moon, Saturn, but "Earth"

A New Creation, Behold, I Make All Things New

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

What did you do with the Scriptures I gave you?

 

[jeffweeder]

I can't see faith as an issue when Israel sees their Messiah.

They saw him in the first century and their lack of faith killed the Lord. How else do get just a NT remnant if not by Faith.

Try reading rom 11 like this...,


Rom 11

25 I do not want you, believers, to be unaware of this mystery [God’s previously hidden plan]—so that you will not be wise in your own opinion—that a partial hardening has [temporarily] happened to Israel [to last] until the full number of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so [at that time] all Israel [that is, all Jews who have a personal faith in Jesus as Messiah] will be saved; just as it is written [in Scripture],

“The Deliverer (Messiah) will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27
“This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”


Without repentance there is no forgiveness of sins.

 

[Truth7t7]

They saw him in the first century and their lack of faith killed the Lord. How else do get just a NT remnant if not by Faith.

Try reading rom 11 like this...,


Rom 11

25 I do not want you, believers, to be unaware of this mystery [God’s previously hidden plan]—so that you will not be wise in your own opinion—that a partial hardening has [temporarily] happened to Israel [to last] until the full number of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so [at that time] all Israel [that is, all Jews who have a personal faith in Jesus as Messiah] will be saved; just as it is written [in Scripture],

“The Deliverer (Messiah) will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27
“This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”


Without repentance there is no forgiveness of sins.

Jeff you have it all wrong, "Jews" are God's chosen and they have a special position in God's eyes based upon ethnic birth right and blood line

Yes when Jesus appears all "Israel" being ethnic Jews will be saved when they see Jesus, Jewish adulterers, fornicators, murderers, liars, stealers, they are God's chosen

"Then I woke up from talking in a bad dream" entitled, The lies being bound in the spiders web of Zionist dual covenant theology in two peoples of God, compliments of John N Darby & C.I. Scofield

 

[Truth7t7]

They saw him in the first century and their lack of faith killed the Lord. How else do get just a NT remnant if not by Faith.

Try reading rom 11 like this...,


Rom 11

25 I do not want you, believers, to be unaware of this mystery [God’s previously hidden plan]—so that you will not be wise in your own opinion—that a partial hardening has [temporarily] happened to Israel [to last] until the full number of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so [at that time] all Israel [that is, all Jews who have a personal faith in Jesus as Messiah] will be saved; just as it is written [in Scripture],

“The Deliverer (Messiah) will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27
“This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”


Without repentance there is no forgiveness of sins.

100% Yes!

All Jews (The Remnant) who put their faith in Jesus will be saved and become a part of the true Israel of God, who is the Church on earth

When the last soul is added to the book of life, then all Israel will be saved

 

[Charlie24]

They saw him in the first century and their lack of faith killed the Lord. How else do get just a NT remnant if not by Faith.

Try reading rom 11 like this...,


Rom 11

25 I do not want you, believers, to be unaware of this mystery [God’s previously hidden plan]—so that you will not be wise in your own opinion—that a partial hardening has [temporarily] happened to Israel [to last] until the full number of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so [at that time] all Israel [that is, all Jews who have a personal faith in Jesus as Messiah] will be saved; just as it is written [in Scripture],

“The Deliverer (Messiah) will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27
“This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”


Without repentance there is no forgiveness of sins.

Why not read it like this?

Rom. 11:25
"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery (what has happened to Israel), lest ye should be wise in your own conceits (The Gentiles were not pulled in because of any merit or righteousness on their part, but only by the Grace of God),; that blindness in part is happened to Israel (the mystery that Paul speaks of), until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in ( refers to the Church, bot Jews and Gentiles that were saved from the day of Pentecost until the resurrection)."

After the resurrection all focus turns to the salvation of Israel, that is the main purpose of the Great Tribulation.

 

[Charlie24]

I Strongly Disagree, Paul Was Clearly Identifying "The True Israel Of God" Being "The Church" Children Of The Promised Seed

Two Israel's are seen below "TWO", simple, clear, easy to understand

1.) Israel The Church, Children Of The Promised Seed, both Jew & Gentile

2.) Israel Of The Flesh "Jews", They Aren't The Children Of God

Romans 9:6-8KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Yes, there is no doubt we disagree!

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, there is no doubt we disagree!

Of course we disagree, you follow John N. Darby 1830's and C.I. Scofield 1909 in dispensationalism's dual covenant theology, in two peoples of God (Jew/Church) a teaching found no place in scripture

 

[Charlie24]

Of course we disagree, you follow John N. Darby 1830's and C.I. Scofield 1909 in dispensationalism's dual covenant theology, in two peoples of God (Jew/Church) a teaching found no place in scripture

What in dispensationalism can't you find? I may be able to help you find it.

 

[jeffweeder]

Why not read it like this?

Rom. 11:25
"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery (what has happened to Israel), lest ye should be wise in your own conceits (The Gentiles were not pulled in because of any merit or righteousness on their part, but only by the Grace of God),; that blindness in part is happened to Israel (the mystery that Paul speaks of), until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in ( refers to the Church, bot Jews and Gentiles that were saved from the day of Pentecost until the resurrection)."

After the resurrection all focus turns to the salvation of Israel, that is the main purpose of the Great Tribulation.

The whole purpose of "today" being the day of salvation is to save the remnant of all nations including Israel. Then the end will come when Jesus appears in vengeance to eternally separate all who reject God and the Gospel.


2Thess 1
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].


2Thess 2
8 Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming. 9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them]. 11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Charlie24]

The whole purpose of "today" being the day of salvation is to save the remnant of all nations including Israel. Then the end will come when Jesus appears in vengeance to eternally separate all who reject God and the Gospel.


2Thess 1
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].


2Thess 2
8 Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming. 9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them]. 11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.

No it's not, Israel has been partially blinded as Paul said, until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

This is what dispensationalism teaches, God deals separately with the salvation of Israel and the Church.

 

[jeffweeder]

No it's not, Israel has been partially blinded as Paul said, until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

The Greek word used means stupidity (blindness) not loss of vision.


[This is what dispensationalism teaches, God deals separately with the salvation of Israel and the Church.]


So much for being first sent to the lost sheep of Israel. So much for the Jew first then the Gentile.

Romans 1:16
I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation [from His wrath and punishment] to everyone who believes [in Christ as Savior], to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Acts 13:46
And [at the same time] Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and confidently, saying, “It was necessary that God’s message [of salvation through faith in Christ] be spoken to you [Jews] first. Since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, now we turn to the Gentiles.

Jn 10
14 I am the Good Shepherd, and I know [without any doubt those who are] My own and My own know Me [and have a deep, personal relationship with Me]— 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father—and I lay down My [very own] life [sacrificing it] for the benefit of the sheep. 16 I have other sheep [beside these] that are not of this fold. I must bring those also, and they will listen to My voice and pay attention to My call, and they will become one flock with one Shepherd.

 

[Charlie24]

The Greek word used means stupidity (blindness) not loss of vision.


[This is what dispensationalism teaches, God deals separately with the salvation of Israel and the Church.]


So much for being first sent to the lost sheep of Israel. So much for the Jew first then the Gentile.

Romans 1:16
I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation [from His wrath and punishment] to everyone who believes [in Christ as Savior], to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Acts 13:46
And [at the same time] Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and confidently, saying, “It was necessary that God’s message [of salvation through faith in Christ] be spoken to you [Jews] first. Since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, now we turn to the Gentiles.

Jn 10
14 I am the Good Shepherd, and I know [without any doubt those who are] My own and My own know Me [and have a deep, personal relationship with Me]— 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father—and I lay down My [very own] life [sacrificing it] for the benefit of the sheep. 16 I have other sheep [beside these] that are not of this fold. I must bring those also, and they will listen to My voice and pay attention to My call, and they will become one flock with one Shepherd.

You don't understand why Christ came only to the lost sheep of Israel.

You don't understand why they were first choice, and the Church was second choice.

You don't understand why God will keep His promise to Abraham and his seed.

You don't understand much of anything, and you want to argue!

Go learn what we are talking about and maybe I can find the time for you!

 

[Marty fox]

You don't understand why Christ came only to the lost sheep of Israel.

You don't understand why they were first choice, and the Church was second choice.

You don't understand why God will keep His promise to Abraham and his seed.

You don't understand much of anything, and you want to argue!

Go learn what we are talking about and maybe I can find the time for you!

Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel to establish the church it’s wasn’t the lost sheep of Israel first and then the church second because the lost sheep of Israel was the start of and are the church.

John 10:16
16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Jesus says above “I must bring them also”.

 

[jeffweeder]

You don't understand much of anything, and you want to argue!

Bye

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Earth will remain forever, its called "New Earth" not Pluto, Mars, Jupiter, Moon, Saturn, but "Earth"

A New Creation, Behold, I Make All Things New

You don't see the problem in your logic? 1st you claim the earth will be annihilated. And then you define the new creation as being the same old earth eternally in existence. You're stuck with a contradiction!

 

[Charlie24]

Bye

Bye, and while I'm at it, if you have any friends here, or anywhere else who believes they can prove their theory of Replacement Theology, tell them Charle24 would like to have conversation with them concerning that subject!

It's my favorite subject next to justification by faith alone!