Does John 1:1 say Jesus is God

[RLT63]

He existed notionally with the Father is what you change word to now. Okay, let’s try that. Notion or…idea.

1 In the beginning the Notion/idea of Jesus already existed.
The Notion/idea of Jesus was with God,
and the Notion/idea of Jesus was God.
2 The Notion/idea of Jesus existed in the beginning with God.
3 God created everything through the Notion/idea of Jesus
and nothing was created except through the Notion/idea of Jesus.
4 The Notion/idea of Jesus gave life to everything that was created,
and his life brought light to everyone.
5 The light shines in the darkness,
and the darkness can never extinguish it.
6 God sent a man, John the Baptist, 7 to tell about the light/Notion/idea of Jesus so that everyone might believe because of his testimony. 8 John himself was not the light/Notion or idea of Jesus; he was simply a witness to tell about the light/Notion or idea of Jesus, 9 The one who is the true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.

10 The Notion/idea of Jesus came into the very world the Notion/idea of Jesus created, but the world didn’t recognize him. 11 He came to his own people, and even they rejected him. 12 But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God. 13 They are reborn—not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God.

14 So the Notion/idea of Jesus became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son.
15 John testified about him when he shouted to the crowds, “This is the one I was talking about when I said, ‘Someone is coming after me who is far greater than I am, for he existed as a Notion/idea long before I existed as a Notion/idea.’”

Is that right?

I had the same thought.

 

[Matthias]

@RLT63 would you post a translation, of your choosing, of Job 10:13 for us to look at?

 

[Matthias]

I had the same thought.

You’re thinking like a trinitarian, she’s thinking like a binitarian and John is thinking like a Jewish monotheist.

 

[Matthias]

@RLT63 have you ever heard me speak about notional (also known in theology as “ideal”) preexistence before?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Jesus preexisted only in the mind of his God. A point in time came when his God brought him into existence.

Isnt that what I wrote…?
In the beginning the Notion/idea of Jesus already existed, the Notion/idea of Jesus was with God in the beginning, and the Notion/idea of Jesus was God.
Is that right?

 

[Matthias]

I had the same thought.

Have you ever thought about why John’s prologue in the Geneva Bible (and many others like it) is translated the way that it is?

Do you think it causes trouble for unitarians?

Do you think it causes trouble for trinitarians?

Do you think it causes trouble for binitarians?

 

[Matthias]

Isnt that what I wrote…?
In the beginning the Notion/idea of Jesus already existed, the Notion/idea of Jesus was with God in the beginning, and the Notion/idea of Jesus was God.
Is that right?

No. John is speaking in the prologue about everything which existed (preexisted) in the Father’s logos.

 

[Matthias]

“For God so loved the world …” (John 3:16)

“For God is love …” (1 John 4:16)

“The Love Thought was the beginning. In the very beginning it was with the Father of Love and it was the Father of Love. All things were made by the Love Thought and without it was not made anything that was made. In it was Life and the Life was the Light of men. The light shone in the darkness and the darkness has never been able to overcome it, or even to comprehend it.”

(Dwight Goddard, The Good News of a Spiritual Realm)

 

[Peterlag]

Is John the Baptist who was born with the spirit part of the Trinity...

John the Baptist was born with the spirit from God right from his mother’s womb, and that is why Jesus Christ said, “Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist” (Luke 7:28).

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No. John is speaking in the prologue about everything which existed (preexisted) in the Father’s logos in the prologue.

Okay…but the word “word” means the same thing in verse 14 as it does in vs 1, per your own amended statement. But now, you are once again back to saying the word “word” in vs 1 means “everything that existed” whereas the word “word” in vs 14 means something…different?

So let’s try this new iteration of changing out the word “word” with “everything that existed.” Would that be better?
So…in the beginning “everything” existed? And “everything” was with God in the beginning, and “everything” was God. And “everything” became flesh and made His home among us? And John said about “everything” that “everything” existed” long before John himself “existed.”
Now do I have it right?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

“For God so loved the world …” (John 3:16)

“For God is love …” (1 John 4:16)

“The Love Thought was the beginning. In the very beginning it was with the Father of Love and it was the Father of Love. All things were made by the Love Thought and without it was not made anything that was made. In it was Life and the Life was the Light of men. The light shone in the darkness and the darkness has never been able to overcome it, or even to comprehend it.”

(Dwight Goddard, The Good News of a Spiritual Realm)

Oh my gosh. How many different things do we have to try instead of “word?” Now we want to change it to “the thought of love?”

 

[Matthias]

Okay…but the word “word” means the same thing in verse 14 as it does in vs 1, per your own amended statement.

I’ve made no amended statement. You might want to search my posts. If you do you will find me saying the saying things, as many ways as I can think to express them differently, over, and over and over again.

But now, you are once again back to saying the word “word” in vs 1 means “everything that existed” whereas the word “word” in vs 14 means something…different?

No. I’m saying that John is speaking generally in the prologue and specifically in v. 14.

So let’s try this new iteration of changing out the word “word” with “everything that existed.” Would that be better?

No. “Word” is thought, speech, utterance, reason, etc.

So…in the beginning “everything” existed? And “everything” was with God in the beginning, and “everything” was God. And “everything” became flesh and made His home among us? And John said about “everything” that “everything” existed” long before John himself “existed.”
Now do I have it right?

No.

 

[Matthias]

Oh my gosh. How many different things do we have to try instead of “word?” Now we want to change it to “the thought of love?”

I’m a teacher, a college professor, retired. I’ll try many different ways to say the same thing in hope that one of those ways will click in your mind.

 

[Matthias]

“Before the Creation of the World, Reason did exist, for Reason was then in God; indeed was God himself, it not being possible for God to be without it. Reason, I say, did exist in God before the Creation of the World, every portion of which was created with the greatest Reason; nor can any thing be produc’d that has been made without it. In this Reason alone, formerly resided the perfect Knowledg of the way that leads to everlasting Life; which it was impossible for men to find out otherways than as enlighten’d by this knowledg, made in some measure partakers of it, and under the guidance of it, as it had been a most glorious Light preceding, and pointing out the way they were to follow. But this Light has since been brought down to men, has shin’d among ‘em many Years, and continues to direct the Ignorant in the way to life, tho’ most neglect the use of it, and chuse to wander on still in the darkness of their Ignorance.”

(John LeClerc, The Harmony of the Evangelists)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No. “Word” is thought, speech, utterance, reason, etc.

Okay.
In the beginning the thought/Notion of love existed. The thought/ Notion of love existed with God in the beginning, and the thought/Notion of love was God. The thought/Notion of love became flesh and the thought/Notion of love is Jesus. John said the thought/Notion of love was greater than John because the thought/Notion of love existed in Gods thoughts before the thought/Notion of John existed.
Now is it right?

 

[Matthias]

Okay.
In the beginning the thought/Notion of love existed. The thought/ Notion of love existed with God in the beginning, and the thought/Notion of love was God. The thought/Notion of love became flesh and the thought/Notion of love is Jesus. John said the thought/Notion of love was greater than John because the thought/Notion of love existed in Gods thoughts before the thought/Notion of John existed.
Now is it right?

No.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

“Before the Creation of the World, Reason did exist, for Reason was then in God; indeed was God himself, it not being possible for God to be without it. Reason, I say, did exist in God before the Creation of the World, every portion of which was created with the greatest Reason; nor can any thing be produc’d that has been made without it. In this Reason alone, formerly resided the perfect Knowledg of the way that leads to everlasting Life; which it was impossible for men to find out otherways than as enlighten’d by this knowledg, made in some measure partakers of it, and under the guidance of it, as it had been a most glorious Light preceding, and pointing out the way they were to follow. But this Light has since been brought down to men, has shin’d among ‘em many Years, and continues to direct the Ignorant in the way to life, tho’ most neglect the use of it, and chuse to wander on still in the darkness of their Ignorance.”

(John LeClerc, The Harmony of the Evangelists)

Sigh…okay.
In the beginning was reason. Reason existed in the beginning with God, and reason was God. Reason became flesh and reason made His home among us. John said about reason, reason is greater than me because reason existed before me.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No.

lol

 

[Matthias]

“In the beginning was Wisdom, and Wisdom was with God, and Wisdom was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by it, and without it was nothing made. What was made, had life in it, and this life was the light of men; and this light shineth in darkness, and the darkness hindered it not.”

(Gilbert Wakefield, A Translation of the New Testament)

 

[Matthias]

Sigh…okay.
In the beginning was reason. Reason existed in the beginning with God, and reason was God. Reason became flesh and reason made His home among us. John said about reason, reason is greater than me because reason existed before me.

The Father is the creator.