John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?

[Taken]

1 John 5 9,10,11. It’s what God says that is most important.

I get your point, but it is only a Beginning...

Yes, important, but “not MOST” important, for MAN-KIND.
What God “says”, is His KNOWLEDGE of TRUTH.

* Man-Hears the KNOWLEDGE of God........ that is GOOD.
* Man-BELIEVES the KNOWLEDGE of God...that is GOOD.

Done deal? Nope.
WHY NOT? Because man can at any time...STOP Hearing.
AND? Because man can at any time............STOP Believing.

FINISH the DEAL? Yes.
HEARING.....Is a mans BEGINNING on his PATH TOWARD salvation.
BELIEVING the Word of God....Is a man DOING the WORKS of God.
CONFESSING (heartfully) ...BELIEF of Gods WORD...Is a man SERVING the Lord God Almighty.

NOW a FINISHED Done Deal? Yes.
NOW that man IS once and forever, “KEPT” in Belief, BY the POWER of GOD......”IN” that man.

Remember, Jesus was sent by God to accomplish certain things...
Isa 55:
[11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Once, Jesus accomplished what he was sent to accomplish...
Jesus said.....IT IS FINISHED?
John 19:
[28] After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

John 19:
[30] When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Men are repeatedly warned in Scripture...the Hearing is GOOD. The Believing is GOOD.....BUT a danger remains IF a man STOPS there, because he can fall away. He can still be tricked and deceived to hear and believe other things....
FINISHING....heartful CONFESSING...is WHEN a man has accomplished and FINISHED....Completing His Forever Relationship WITH God.

Why... heartful thoughts CONFESSION, instead of logical mindful thoughts CONFESSION?

Because...
1) the logical Carnal Mind IS AGAINST God...(Rom 8:7)
2) the heartful thoughts of a man IS the mans TRUTH. (Rom 10:10)

God Bless,
Taken

 

[APAK]

If God isn't your Savior you don't have a Savior.

Isaiah 43
11 I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.

Do you understand the verse you quoted here about YHWH the one true God? I do not think so.

Who brought a son into this world and in his stead, caused this grown man to be the sacrificial savior for mankind? The same person as in Isaiah 43:11

Who then is the ultimate savior of people? Surely both cannot be as they are two different and distinct persons and only one is God, the Father, YHWH, and the other his son - the son of God.

Do you understand who is your true Savior?

(1Ti 4:10) For to this end we labour and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those that believe.(NEV)

(1Ti 4:16) Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.(NEV)

(1Jn 4:12) No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.

(1Jn 4:13) Hereby we know that we abide in him and He in us, because He has given us of his Spirit.

(1Jn 4:14) And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.(NEV)

So what and who do you believe and preach, the Son only, the Father only, or both the Father and the Son? Take your pick...

 

[Rich R]

I will focus just on the two Persons/Beings, rather than the Three Persons/Beings (Eternal Heavenly Trio), since the OP is addressing just the Father and the Son.

1. The Father (only) is called "the only true God" in Jhn. 17:3. The words "the only true God" in koine Greek are, "τον μονον αληθινον θεον" (ton monon alethinon theon). The Father is never called "μονογενὴς" anywhere in scripture. If He had been, He could not be the Father of the Son.

2. The Son (only) is called "only-begotten", "God" (Jhn. 1:1c., "θεος ην ο λογος" (theos en o logos)) in (Jhn. 1:14,18, 3:16,18; Heb. 11:17; 1 Jhn. 4:9, is basically monogene (μονογενῆ; Jhn. 3:16; Heb. 11:17; 1 Jhn. 4:9) or monogenes (μονογενὴς; Jhn. 1:18) or monogenous (μονογενοῦς; Jhn. 1:14, 3:18)). The Son is never called, "τον μονον αληθινον θεον" anywhere in scripture. If He had been, He could not be the Son of the Father.

The word "true", from "αληθινον" (alethinon) means "original, underived."
The words "only-begotten", from "μονογενὴς" means "only one of the same nature" (ie. as from the Father's nature; nothing to do with time). The Sons' nature is of (from) the Father. The Father's nature is His own (original, underived). The Father's nature is never that of (from) the Son. For instance, my DNA (nature) is of (from) my Father. My Father's DNA (nature) is never of (from) me as his son.

The Son is not "the Father". Ever.
The Father is not "the Son". Ever.

The Father is "the Father" (Jhn. 10:36. &c).
The Son of "the Father" is also a "Father" (Heb. 2:13; Isa 8:16,18, 9:6; Jhn. 13:33, &c), made so by "the Father".

The words "Father" and "Son" are relational terms.

Who/what is "the word" of John 1:1? John says:

In the beginning refers to Genesis 1.
The Father, in Genesis 1 is the Person/Being identified as "God said ..." (speaking to the Son)
The Son, in Genesis 1 is the Person/Being identified as "God made ..." (obeying the will of the Father)
Light refers to Genesis 1, wherein the Son, is the Light that reveals His glory in Day 1, by request of the Father.
Word refers to Genesis 1, wherein the Son carries out all commands of the Father, as the Amen of the Father. Wherever the Son is, He says and does what the Father desires Him to say and do.

Thus
God (ie Person/Being of the Son) was with the God (ie Person/Being of the Father)
Deity was with the Deity.
Eternal Son was with the Eternal Father.
2nd Person/Being was with the 1st Person/Being.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Joh 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

That's a lot of fancy weaving and bobbing to say that the Father is not the only true God, but that's what the trinity demands since there is no clear cut verse that says "God the Son" as opposed to the 35+ times we see the "the son of God." Think seriously about your statement: "The words 'Father' and 'Son are relational terms." I guess that means anybody can be their own father?

I think you assume that the "us" in Genesis is Jesus because you already know it is Jesus without considering other possibilities. You already know Jesus is God before even cracking the book.

Regarding that "us" in Genesis, you may want to research on all the spirit beings present with God. Unlike the trinity, you don't have to go outside the scriptures to see there are in fact many spiritual beings with God that were with Him when He created the world. You can see that God actually consulted with them before He did many things. It's all in the scriptures.

As far as John 1:1 and 1:14 goes, again you already know the "word" means Jesus without considering other possibilities. There is tons of information on the word "logos" (the Greek word for "word"). If you look, you will see that it refers to the thought processes in one's mind, a "plan" or "blueprint" if you will. Jesus was certainly in God's plan from the beginning. He was certainly central to the plan of redemption, but that doesn't make him God. He is the son of God. What's so complicated about that? What is the purpose in making a son to be his own father?

 

[Behold]

guess that means anybody can be their own father?

Just read a bible.
Try this verse..

Its in Philippians.

-

New Living Translation
Though Jesus was GOD, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

English Standard Version
who, though Jesus was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Berean Standard Bible
Jesus...Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

Berean Literal Bible
Jesus...Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider to be equal with God something to be grasped,

King James Bible
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

New King James Version
who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,

 

[Rich R]

Just read a bible.
Try this verse..

Its in Philippians.

-

New Living Translation
Though Jesus was GOD, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

English Standard Version
who, though Jesus was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Berean Standard Bible
Jesus...Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

Berean Literal Bible
Jesus...Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider to be equal with God something to be grasped,

King James Bible
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

New King James Version
who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,

The NLT is pure translator Trinitarian bias. They totally left out the word "form" which is in every Greek text.

If one thing being in the "form" of something means it actually is that something, then Jesus was not God, at least for some time, shortly after his resurrection.

Mark 16:12,

After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
​

Not sure what exactly that "form" was, but he did change from supposedly being God into something else. That's got to be hard to explain if being in the form of something means it actually is that something.

Phil 2:7,

But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
​

Here we see Jesus changing from God into a servant. That would be quite a change in fundamental identity. If he was a servant, then he was not God, at least if we stick with the meaning of "form" you are suggesting.

Better research what that word "form" actually means.

And read the several verses preceding the one you quoted, i.e., the context. I think you will see the context is simply saying that despite Jesus' high standing, he didn't use it for his own benefit. Instead he used it to serve others. The real kicker though, it that it say we are to think the same way in that regard. Does that mean we should think we are God? I don't think so. No, it just means that despite our high standing with God, we also should use it in service to others.

The fact is, there is no clear cut verse in the Bible that says Jesus is God. Even virtually all Trinitarian scholars readily admit to that. The Trinity doctrine was formulated some 300 years after Paul wrote that the Father is the only true God. The trinity is said to be "derived" or "formulated" from the scriptures, but the doctrine is not anywhere in the Bible clearly stated, certainly not with the same clearness as saying only the Father is the true God.

 

[Behold]

The fact is, there is no clear cut verse in the Bible that says Jesus is God.

There are clear cult verses in the bible that say Jesus is God but they dont say that He is the Father.
And, if a person is taught to not accept that Jesus is God, then does it matter to them if 345 verses teach that Jesus is God in the Flesh??
Of course not, as you prove..


Here are a few...

"God was manifested in the Flesh".

"If you've seen ME, (Jesus says) You've SEEN the Father".

"Jesus was in the world, and the world was MADE THROUGH HIM"

"""The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. ... For in Jesus all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible"

 

[Rich R]

There are clear cult verses in the bible that say Jesus is God but they dont say that He is the Father.
And, if a person is taught to not accept that Jesus is God, then does it matter to them if 345 verses teach that Jesus is God in the Flesh??
Of course not, as you prove..


Here are a few...

"God was manifested in the Flesh".

"If you've seen ME, (Jesus says) You've SEEN the Father".

"Jesus was in the world, and the world was MADE THROUGH HIM"

"""The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. ... For in Jesus all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible"

In the Greek, 1 Tim 3:16 actually says "which was manifested in the flesh..." The "which" refers to "the mystery of godliness." Not the same thing as God Himself.

A well known phrase goes, "If you've seen one, you've seen them all." We all know that doesn't mean we've literately seen all of whatever.

Yes, God absolutely created all things "through" Jesus. A Hollywood actor or star quarterback negotiates a contract "through" their agent. Needless to say the actor or quarterback are not the agent. Jesus is God's agent "through" whom He created the world. It is just like Joseph's relationship to Pharaoh. Pharaoh made Joseph head of all Egypt. The only thing Joseph didn't have was the throne. The same idea is brought out in Corinthians:

1 Cor 15:28,

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.​

God granted Jesus all authority on earth, but that doesn't make him to be God. Ever wonder why one part of God had to be given anything at all, let alone authority, form another part of God? Aren't they all supposedly equal? Could the Jesus or Holy Ghost Part grant something to the Father that He doesn't already have. These are serious questions that ought to be considered before settling on the nature of God and Jesus. Unsettling perhaps, but still there.

Corinthians also brings up a thorn for the trinity doctrine, namely, how is one part of God subjected ("put under" in Greek) to another part? On the other hand, if Jesus' relationship to God is like Joseph's to Pharaoh, there is no need to explain.

Does one thing being in the "image" of something else actually make it that something else? If yes, then we are all on our way to becoming Jesus, the firstborn of many brethren.

Rom 8:29,

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
​

Another interesting thing about this verse is that it says we are God's brothers. At least that's what it says if Jesus is God.

Also, Caesar wasn't really a human being, given that his "image" was on a coin. Caesar must have actually been a coin I guess.

I'll leave it to you to further ponder what it means that all things were created "in" Jesus, but it sure doesn't say Jesus is God.

 

[Behold]

In the Greek, 1 Tim 3:16 actually says "which was manifested in the flesh..." The "which" refers to "the mystery of godliness." Not the same thing as God Himself.

Yes, God absolutely created all things "through" Jesus.

Rich R, Do us a favor on this forum.
Unless you speak and read Koine Greek fluently, on a Scholarship level, then do not pretend that when you read the english translation of a Greek lexicon, performed by some generic translator, that you are now equipped to sit in authority over the Holy Bible as a Greek Text Expert.
Thx.

Also,

The reason that the earth is made THROUGH CHRIST, is because Jesus is the pre-incarnate WORD, who IS/Was God, in John 1.

In Genesis He is the "our, and US"...... 2nd part of the Trinity, who "made" man, in "OUR" image.

God spoke Creation into existence using WORDS, and Jesus is the Virgin born WORD of God incarnate as the GOD Man.

 

[Rich R]

Rich R, Do us a favor on this forum.
Unless you speak and read Koine Greek fluently, on a Scholarship level, then do not pretend that when you read the english translation of a Greek lexicon, performed by some generic translator, that you are now equipped to sit in authority over the Holy Bible as a Greek Text Expert.
Thx.

Also,

The reason that the earth is made THROUGH CHRIST, is because Jesus is the pre-incarnate WORD, who IS/Was God, in John 1.

In Genesis He is the "our, and US"...... 2nd part of the Trinity, who "made" man, in "OUR" image.

God spoke Creation into existence using WORDS, and Jesus is the Virgin born WORD of God incarnate as the GOD Man.

In my opinion, the greatest thing about the internet is that it brings huge amounts of knowledge from experts to the common person.

The truth is, it is not necessary to be fluent in Greek or Hebrew to gain deep insights to the scriptures. There are lexicons, concordances, interlinear, and other tools that enable the serious student to gain a deeper understanding than simply reading English translations.

I doubt very greatly you will find anything I said about the Greek I quoted isn't true as far as it goes.

BTW, I am fairly fluent in Greek. I studied it for 2 years at Emory University in Decatur, GA. :) Admittedly, that was some time ago, and I've forgotten some, but as I said, with the readily available Biblical Greek and Hebrew tools available, there is no reason any serious student should not avail themselves of the many benefits they offer.

I'm sure you understand that there are many spiritual beings who live with God, angels, seraphim, cherubim, and demons are a few examples. David said, "The heavens praise your wonders, Lord, your faithfulness too, in the assembly of the holy ones." So that means that Genesis 1 doesn't have to be talking about Jesus being present in the beginning. If it did, and that made him God, then neither Jesus nor Paul knew what they were talking about when they both said only the Father is God (John 17:3 and 1 Cor 8:6). If, on the other hand, God was referring to the other spiritual beings, then no need to doubt Jesus' nor Paul's clear deceleration as to who the true God is. It all fits together like a hand in a glove.

You say that Jesus is the pre-incarnate Word who is God. How do you get that? Here's the actual text:

John 1:1,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
​

What is your justification for substituting the word "Jesus" for the word "Word?" Before answering, you ought to consider John's clearly stated reason for writing.

John 20:30-31,

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
​

John wanted us to know that Jesus is the Christ (the anointed) and the son of God. Therefore, all of John must be understood with that in mind. John did not write to prove Jesus is God.

 

[Wrangler]

He is the son of God. What's so complicated about that? What is the purpose in making a son to be his own father?

I doubt you will ever get an actual answer. A lot of bobbing and weaving, for sure. Appeals to Ignorance, language and our mind cannot understand nonsense, etc.

 

[Rich R]

I doubt you will ever get an actual answer. A lot of bobbing and weaving, for sure. Appeals to Ignorance, language and our mind cannot understand nonsense, etc.

I know. You're absolutely right. Still, they always fall back on the, "God's ways are higher than our ways" as though that is justification enough for whatever nonsense they want to adopt as doctrine. Go figure!

But, no matter what, they are all our brothers and sisters and God's children. Reason enough to love 'em! :)

 

[Jack]

Do you understand the verse you quoted here about YHWH the one true God? I do not think so.

Who brought a son into this world and in his stead, caused this grown man to be the sacrificial savior for mankind? The same person as in Isaiah 43:11

Who then is the ultimate savior of people? Surely both cannot be as they are two different and distinct persons and only one is God, the Father, YHWH, and the other his son - the son of God.

Do you understand who is your true Savior?

(1Ti 4:10) For to this end we labour and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those that believe.(NEV)

(1Ti 4:16) Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.(NEV)

(1Jn 4:12) No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.

(1Jn 4:13) Hereby we know that we abide in him and He in us, because He has given us of his Spirit.

(1Jn 4:14) And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.(NEV)

So what and who do you believe and preach, the Son only, the Father only, or both the Father and the Son? Take your pick...

If God isn't your Savior you don't have a Savior! Satan has DUPED you.

 

[Behold]

In my opinion, the greatest thing about the internet is that it brings huge amounts of knowledge from experts to the common person.

The internet is filled with a lot of false information.
For example... on the Internet, where you get your info, you will be told this...

"The original greek says"...

And then you will repeat that lie, because you are not trained in Koine Greek, or in basic bible manuscript evidence.
And reading about it on line, is not going to work.
This lie of "the original greek says", is so often repeated. Its really just incredible.
The fact is, there is no "original greek"... there are actually about 30 fully completed extant "greek" new Testaments that are all copies of copies of copies.
3-5 are used to make "bibles". A couple of Latin Texts are used to create the Catholic Bible.
So, the next time you hear or read where someone says..>"the original greek says", as they try to pretend they are the authority, just realize you are dealing with a self righteous LIAR.

So, as i was saying, unless you are a Koine Greek speaking Scholar, then avoid the pretense of pretending that you can correct a Bible or another person's Theology with "original greek" that does not exist, and if it did, you couldn't read it, RichR.

 

[APAK]

If God isn't your Savior you don't have a Savior! Satan has DUPED you.

I just gave you a post as my reply and you have deliberately decided to act childish and in ignorance. I can see why you might be stunned because you do not know who is the one true God at all, right Jack? No more useful words then to contribute?

 

[Rich R]

The internet is filled with a lot of false information.
For example... on the Internet, where you get your info, you will be told this...

"The original greek says"...

And then you will repeat that lie, because you are not trained in Koine Greek, or in basic bible manuscript evidence.
And reading about it on line, is not going to work.
This lie of "the original greek says", is so often repeated. Its really just incredible.
The fact is, there is no "original greek"... there are actually about 30 fully completed extant "greek" new Testaments that are all copies of copies of copies.
3-5 are used to make "bibles". A couple of Latin Texts are used to create the Catholic Bible.
So, the next time you hear or read where someone says..>"the original greek says", as they try to pretend they are the authority, just realize you are dealing with a self righteous LIAR.

So, as i was saying, unless you are a Koine Greek speaking Scholar, then avoid the pretense of pretending that you can correct a Bible or another person's Theology with "original greek" that does not exist, and if it did, you couldn't read it, RichR.

You are absolutely correct in saying there are no real original Greek texts. That's where textual criticism comes into play. Perhaps you could tell me specifically where the Greek I quoted is wrong.

I guess all Greek speaking scholars should just keep their mouths shut? They shouldn't share what the know with the rest of us? Concordances, lexicons, morphology, etc. are of no value to the workman of God's word?

If one is not a master auto mechanic, they shouldn't drive a car?

In any case, tradition is a lot worse than original Greek. That much is for certain.

 

[Behold]

In any case, tradition is a lot worse than original Greek. That much is for certain.

There is no original Greek text. Just copies of copies.
The "originals" were the Apostle's Letters.

And here is the issue with allowing Scholarship to be your "go to guide", instead of the Holy Spirit.
You end up following them... which is proven by always referring to them as your proof text.
See you're issue?
Trust me when i tell you that no one here is going to mistake you for a Bible Believer., RichR.

 

[Behold]

Here we see Jesus changing from God into a servant. That would be quite a change in fundamental identity.​

​

Christ as the Word of God, who was God , pre-incarnate....John 1.....to later be Virgin born, is indeed a change in fundamental identity.
But here is the thing to realize, RichR..

"with GOD, all things are possible". = including the fact that the Lamb who came here to be slain, is now a LION and a Groom who is coming to take His Bride and exact ultimate vengeance on "all who do not obey the Gospel".

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

 

[Rich R]

There is no original Greek text. Just copies of copies.
The "originals" were the Apostle's Letters.

And here is the issue with allowing Scholarship to be your "go to guide", instead of the Holy Spirit.
You end up following them... which is proven by always referring to them as your proof text.
See you're issue?
Trust me when i tell you that no one here is going to mistake you for a Bible Believer., RichR.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but I'm not talking about myself or my desire to be known as a Bible scholar. You keep wanting to talk about me, but believe me, I am nothing to talk about. How about sticking with the scriptures?

The original post was about John 17:3 and 1 Cor 8:6 which clearly say only the Father is God. I was wondering how that fits with the trinity doctrine. So far I've not seen how the two ideas can co-exist, but perhaps you have something to share on the subject. Whatever verses you think say Jesus is God have to fit with those that would indicate he is not God, John 17:3 and 1 Cor 8:6 being but two examples.

 

[Behold]

Maybe you haven't noticed, but I'm not talking about myself or my desire to be known as a Bible scholar.

No worries, as once you decided to post:

""""""""In the Greek, 1 Tim 3:16 actually says "which was manifested in the flesh..." The "which" refers to "the mystery of godliness." Not the same thing as God Himself """"""

= RichR, right at that moment You ended any option that can be drawn regarding you that would suggest that you are not a "Pretend" bible corrector who actually does not read K.Greek, but uses other Greek translators to correct the Holy Bible.

Its what you did, and we know you by your deeds (Fruit).

See it?

So, did you want to try to sell us more " K greek" that you can't read to try to prove what isn't true?
Or can you move along now?

 

[Rich R]

​

Christ as the Word of God, who was God , pre-incarnate....John 1.....to later be Virgin born, is indeed a change in fundamental identity.
But here is the thing to realize, RichR..

"with GOD, all things are possible". = including the fact that the Lamb who came here to be slain, is now a LION and a Groom who is coming to take His Bride and exact ultimate vengeance on "all who do not obey the Gospel".

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

There is a context of, "with God, all things are possible." Otherwise someone might think God can make one the same as three.

Mark 14:36,

And he said, Abba, Father, all things [are] possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.​

Despite Jesus' plea to God, apparently it was not possible for God to redeem mankind without sacrificing His only son. So there are things God can't do. He can't lie either. Better reconsider what all things being possible actually means. Like I said, context is key.

Yes, Jesus was the lamb but is now a lion. That doesn't mean he has to be God. The only reason he can take vengeance is because God granted him that power. I'm pretty sure I asked you how one part of God can grant another part anything, let alone the power to judge. According to the trinity doctrine all "person" are equal." Well, apparently, before God granted Jesus the power to judge, some part of God had more than what another part had. So either we change the trinity doctrine to say not all parts are equal, or we ditch the trinity altogether.