John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?

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Taken

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Where did the blood come from?

Gods Creation.
God forms the BODY. (Blood, mind, bones, tissue, organs, etc.)

It begins with SEEDS, Gods mystery.
God FORMS and gives to every SEED it’s own body.

1 Cor 15;
[38] But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
 

Justbobg

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The Son of God, is a title.
God does not have babies.
God can not Reproduce an Offspring.
Reproduce by definition is something WITH a Beginning.

Jesus IS A Name, God Gave to “Gods Word”.
Gods Word was NOT created.
Gods Word was IN God, IS God, and when Gods Word comes Forth out of Gods Mouth, (in speech, it is communication, and EVEN when Gods Word comes FORTH out of Gods Mouth, that same Word Remains IN and WITH God), because IN or Sent forth out of Gods Mouth...Gods Word IS a true and holy thing OF God Himself.

AND when Gods Word comes Forth out of Gods Mouth, and God PUTS His WORD IN a BODY, That God has Prepared (for human men to see and hear), THAT IS, a mystery of God, Scripture Reveals.

FURTHER, Scripture Reveals:
Heaven IS Gods Throne...Earth IS Gods Footstool.
Heaven IS the Estate of holy Celestial beings (created spirits, hosts, servants of God)
Earth IS the Estate of what Began as GOOD, Terrestrial beings (created seeds that God Formed a Body from Dust, and gave to each seed, and to each Body, it having it’s own reproducing seeds, to Reproduce “IT’S” same “KIND” of thing...(manKIND, animalKIND, herbKIND, plantKIND)

WHEN God PUT His WORD into a BODY God Prepared, and SENT that holy thing TO EARTH.......GOD SAID;...
God IN Heaven WOULD BE “A” father to Him.
AND TO God IN Heaven (what God Sent TO EARTH), WOULD BE TO GOD, “A” Son.

Gods Father and Son relationship between God and His Word, (He Named JESUS), IS BY, through, of....Gods Declaration.
(Mankind had already anciently Learned names for relationships...fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, husbands, wives, heads of clans, etc., and their meanings)

Moses was head of his clan ACTING father, (which is representative of the HEAD of household, HEAD of a clan, etc.)
It was Moses who first DECLARED, God in Heaven is FATHER of all.

When Gods Word came forth out of His mouth, and God Prepared a Body for His Word, and sent that holy thing to a Womb of a Virgin Jewish woman, that would marry a Jewish man of the House of David.....that holy thing, delivered forth, was called Jesus...and foretold to Mary...he would be called Son of Man.....and WOULD BE CALLED, the Son of God......which was fulfilled some 30 years later, on the DAY, God declared “this” day, God begat and announced this IS HIS Son.

ORDER and WAY, according to God, becomes jumbled when MeN do not KEEP Gods ORDER and WAY in consideration, perspective and proper ORDER, according to God Himself.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Justbobg

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Sorry I can’t get past your first 2 paragraphs, I always though Jesus was a baby in a manger . As the Bible says I read and believe the Bible , not sure where you are getting your info .
 

Justbobg

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Gods Creation.
God forms the BODY. (Blood, mind, bones, tissue, organs, etc.)

It begins with SEEDS, Gods mystery.
God FORMS and gives to every SEED it’s own body.

1 Cor 15;
[38] But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
Yes God only is father of ALL.
 

Pearl

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Just read this passage:
Deu 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes.
So God is Lord of lords.

Then I read this passage:
Rev 17:14
They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

So both God and the Lamb is Lord of lords. So who is the Lamb that is Lords of lords if it isn't Jesus? So then, both God the Father and Jesus the Son are Lord of lords.
 

Taken

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Sorry I can’t get past your first 2 paragraphs, I always though Jesus was a baby in a manger . As the Bible says I read and believe the Bible , not sure where you are getting your info .

Years of Multiple Scriptural Reading and Study.

Jesus was delivered/ born in a manger/ WHEN he was revealed on Earth, in the likeness AS a man.(KIND of holy thing).

Phil 2:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

However Gods WORD came forth out from Gods Mouth IN Heaven...
Long before He was sent to Mary’s womb.

See here; Our first notice, Gods Word came forth out of Gods mouth.
Gen 1:
[3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.


See here;
Isa. 55:
[11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.


See here:
John 1:
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

See here:
Luke 1:
[35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

See here:
John 19:
[30] When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

WHAT was “finished” ?

See here;
John 19:
[28] After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.


Revert back to Isa 55:11......
Jesus was sent to ACCOMPLISH certain things, once ACCOMPLISHED, he would RETURN to Heaven.

TO KNOW what ALL Jesus ACCOMPLISHED, you would have to read, learn, study step by step ALL the THINGS Jesus did.

These are merely snippets from reading and studying Scripture.
 

Matthias

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I have a question for all to consider, when Jesus was in Mary’s womb was Jesus a creation or not ? How could he not be ? No options sorry . So can ever a creation say I’m the creator? Not a chance . And Jesus never made the claim to be creator , but he did make the claim of having a relationship with God . And God honored him . After all Jesus is the only begotten Son of God .
some people claim Jesus is the word of God made flesh , and yes he is . But the creator spoke the word . And we should all know who that is .

“God as a fetus. Holiness sleeping in a womb. The creator of life being created.”

(Max Lucado, God Came Near)

Millions of people are being fed this, and they love it.
 
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Behold

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......................................
Just as I thought Mr. true student.

Been there and done that..
Thx.

If you have a question, about : a verse, a doctrine, a bible version, the "cult of Mary", or a similar cult, just let me know.
I always enjoy sincere correspondence.
 

APAK

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Trinitarianism rests on mystical dualism, the principle that jettison's logic and asserts contradictions exist.
  • There are no options and there are many options.
  • Jesus is IN and at the same time, Jesus is OUT.
  • Not only that, perniciously, Jesus is FULLY in and FULLY out.
  • He's dead but only a part of him died.
  • He was raised from the dead but he raised himself.
Trinitarians do not recognize figurative language IF it suits their doctrine. For instance, the tennis balls were with god in the beginning and the tennis balls were god. They 'see' how this is literally true (once you impose that 'tennis balls' are a WHO not a WHAT) but do not 'see' explicit Scripture, let alone implications of Scripture that could undermine their doctrine.

The biggest implication undermining the trinity doctrine is the many times God (in his unitarian nature) is juxtaposed with Jesus. The famous, 'God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son' does not invoke the trinitarian preferred 'father' but God - which ought to be read for emphasis, "God, in his unitarian nature." They have no response to this. They don't respond but ignore it, replacing unfavorable verses with favorable and ambiguous verses.

This demonstrates not only extreme intellectual dishonesty but psychologically disturbed, Cognitive Dissonance.
Your post is excellent. And believers in this contrived, convenient religious dualism causes them to be very double-minded when and where necessary for the sake of their non-descript Triune god. And this cognitive dissonance you assert is real for them whether they are able or want to admit it or not.
 
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BeyondET

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A females “seed” ovum, is fertilized By a mans “seed” sperm ... NOT in her womb...but rather the “seed” of a man enters the womb, travels up the Fallopian tube and Fertilizes the Woman “seed” at the high end of her Fallopian tube called her Ovary, WHERE her “seeds” are located and WHERE fertilization takes place. The Fertilization taking place is called CONCEPTION.
Once a woman’s seed IS fertilized that “fertilized” seed travels down her Fallopian tube to Her Womb. Once IN the WOMB, the woman is CALLED....CONCEIVED.....(aka, Pregnant, Expecting, a thing of her Same KIND of thing, aka, a manKIND of thing).
It attaches to the wall of her womb, and a Placenta begins forming, engulfing the seed. The Placenta begins forming a sac of fluid, to protect the fertilized seed. The Placenta IS a barrier between the Woman’s Independent Natural LIFE...(ie her BLOOD) ... and the FORMING natural human babe.
The umbilical cord begins forming on the fertilized seed and attached to the Placenta.
The Placenta IS the ... FOOD delivers and WASTE receiver...for the forming, called developing fetus....
Woman ingests, food, minerals, vitamins, and a portion is sent to the Placenta to FEED/nourish the fetus.
Fetus expels any waste from it’s developing body, back to the Placenta, and back to the woman, whose body disposes of the waste.
This continues 9 months...until the babe is completed development, and ready to be delivered forth from the womb...called BORN.
The babe, comes forth, with a gush of the placenta fluid.
The babe, is severed from the Placenta, cord cut.
Complete Formed body has accomplished pro-CREATION...
And same as ADAM...his body FORMED by the hand of God...
Once Completely Form-ED....and THEN...
God Blows IN the nostrils, HIS BREATH OF LIFE.
That “IS” an individual...CREATED and MADE manKIND of thing.
Created.....BLOOD LIFE, ie called LIFE of man (formed body)
Made.........SOUL LIFE, ie BREATH OF GOD

The BABE.....is named, and BOTH the Blood life of the BODY and the Soul life of Gods Breath....are called by the ONE same NAME.

God is in the business....OF KILLING BODY’S natural LIFE ... BLOOD.
And God is in the business....OF SAVING the SOUL LIFE...of DEAD Body’s...

Get’s more confusing, if one does not stay in the Order, Way, WHY, according to God.

GOD DID NOT, fertilize Mary’s seed.
GOD SENT His SEED to.......Mary’s WOMB...not her Fallopian tube, not her Ovary.......NEVER does scripture teach a CONCEPTION.
Scripture teaches.....a Pregnancy...Mary was CONCEIVED.
Conceived is simply having a developing babe IN A WOMB.

And when you think about it....ancient men, historical men, and modern men......(and even woman).....do not Know or Understand the step by step process of human reproduction.

Think about ancient men....and I will accredit UNMARRIED catholic men Clerics....trying to TEACH JESUS being a “natural” born “sinless’ Holy Son of God........FROM the Womb of a human, Sinful, Woman....
They couldn’t explain it, so...do the next best thing...while teaching to a crowd of illiterates who can not read....hold a conference...conclude what people will believe..........Mary was special, and herself naturally born sinless....AND ofcourse a lie, must create another lie of. HOW Mary was sinless, being born of a sinful woman’s womb.....It’s was an ancient created lie upon lie, repeated, becoming more elaborate, (Catholic doctrine Catechism, instilled, for centuries, and continues to this day....
And to this day, it can not be verified IN Scripture, but IS verified IN the Catechism....a catholics mans word being verified by a catholics mans word......the FRAUD.
Correct no egg was used even though women are born with every egg they will ever use millions but not one was used.

Actually men are far more reproductive in that sense than women, men will produce billions of little swimming tadpoles throughout the man's reproductive cycle.

Like I mentioned imo the material used to form the human vessel of Jesus was the lining of the uterus DNA, that is discarded every 30 days or so.
 

Jack

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..................................................
Again, for the reading-impaired:

It is likely that the phrase here is a praise (doxology) or blessing of God in heaven. Notice that there is no complete statement here - there is no verb and predicate. These are omitted because the meaning is commonly understood by Christians and Jews at this time.

Furthermore, it cannot be an address to Jesus (or anyone else) as most trinitarians claim. This is made certain by the John’s use of kurios (“Lord” in the nominative case as used for subjects and predicate nouns). But in every instance in the entire New Testament the vocative case kurie is used for addressing “Lord.” For proof of this, see my personal study: Examining the Trinity: KURIE - All NT Uses of "Lord" in Address

As for the climax of John’s Gospel, the very end of this same chapter tells us:

verse 20:30) - “Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
verse 20:31) - “but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God” - John 20:19-31, RSV.

That’s where any honest statement of Jesus being God should be found - - - but it isn’t.

This is a small part of my own study (not the WT’s). Here’s the rest Examining the Trinity: MYGOD .
So, what are your qualifications for rewriting our Christian Bible? NONE maybe?
 

Jack

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Could you explain those 5 words you bolded with some context and commentary?

What would you think I meant if after a very bloody battle I assumed my beloved Prince lay dead on the battlefield and the battle was lost. And then to my joy and surprise to find out that not only my King brought in reinforcements and won the battle for my Prince, my Prince was also alive because of my King. And then later I saw the Prince with my own eyes, truly alive from the 'dead' and without a scratch on him. I then I cried out in tears, (for my) My Prince and my King!'

Is the Prince and the King the same person?
"My Lord and my God" doesn't need explaining.
 

APAK

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Just read this passage:
Deu 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes.
So God is Lord of lords.

Then I read this passage:
Rev 17:14
They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

So both God and the Lamb is Lord of lords. So who is the Lamb that is Lords of lords if it isn't Jesus? So then, both God the Father and Jesus the Son are Lord of lords.
So because the Lamb is called King of Kings and Lord of lords in two place of Rev 17:14 and 19:16 and his Father YHWH is also called the LORD of all Lords and the King of all Kings then you simply conclude that the Lamb = YHWH or vice versa.

Not so fast there Pearl it is not that simple. You have used faulty logic and are ignorant of the use of Hebrew sayings and context.

In 1 Tim 6:13-16 Paul says that only YHWH is the Lord of lords and the King of all Kings, and not the Son of God.

Do you know that the pagan King of Babylon was also called the King of kings - see Eze 26:7

The Hebrew language uses a noun to modify another noun. We do not in English.

There is nothing sacred or pious in the expressions alone of the words 'King of Kings' and 'Lord of lords,' Its significance is based on the applied subject, whether for YHWH, the Lamb or King Nebuchadnezzar etc.

The King of Babylon does not equal to the Lamb and the Lamb does not equate to YHWH his Father base on these types of two expressions.

When Nebuchadnezzar called YHWH the god of gods, he meant he is the greatest of all the gods in existence.

When Noah said Canaan would be the servant of servants he meant they would be the lowest of all servants in statue.

Another expression, 'heaven of the heavens' means the Highest heaven.

The angel in Rev described the Lamb as the highest of all kings of the earth and the greatest lord of all the earth.

Each age had their Lord of all lords and the King of all Kings. Now the Lamb is authorized to be the greatest of all of these Lords and King of all Kings that ever existed on earth. It has nothing to do with his Father YHWH, who is the greater that his Son, the once slain Lamb.

His Father, YHWH, appointed and authorized his Son to be the highest of all Lords and Kings. This is the context we must use and not to force an impossible 100 equality relationship with the creator and the created.

God raised his Son from the dead remember...

I could go further into this subject although you must realize you just cannot just pull up a verse (OT in this case) and highlight common shared translated English words in other verses (Rev in this case) and because they are referenced to different subjects, force them also to be the same. That's being careless, without knowing the origin, usage and context of these Hebraic expressions.

I hope you then reconsider your conclusion..
 
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APAK

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"My Lord and my God" doesn't need explaining.
Getting a little stressed are we? So you are saying for this subject it is best be ignorant as ignorance is bliss? I hope this is not how you read and understand scripture..
 

Jack

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Getting a little stressed are we? So you are saying for this subject it is best be ignorant as ignorance is bliss? I hope this is not how you read and understand scripture..
If God isn't your Savior you don't have a Savior.

Isaiah 43
11 I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.
 

Justbobg

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Actually, MOST people DO NOT BELIEVE ... Jesus IS the Son of God.
And MOST people DO NOT UNDERSTAND ... Jesus IS the Son of God, by, through, of......Gods Declaration.

Human Children are reproduced from Fertilized Human seeds.
Humans, Animals, herbs, plants, trees...all Reproduce their same KIND of thing, from their own seeds...and fertilization.

God IS Eternal. God can NOT REPRODUCE His Same KIND of thing.
God Can NOT REPRODUCE something with a beginning that had no beginning.

God CAN however, MAKE a created thing, receive His SEED, and CAUSE that seed to create and make an eternal LIVING thing.
There is no “fertilization”, of mixing a SEED of a human and SEED of God.
Same as. There is no “fertilization”, of mixing SEEDS of a human man and woman..........when a man and a woman.......ADOPT a child.
The Child Becomes the “LEGAL” child of the man and woman.
The Childs father and mother are LEGALLY, the child’s father and mother. It’s a Declared relationship.

A man who receives Gods Seed, is a Declaration of Adoption of that man Lawfully being Gods son...called Born “OF” God...which IS A spirit being, Born “OF” Gods SEED.
1 John 5 9,10,11. It’s what God says that is most important.
 

ReChoired

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John 17:1-3,

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.​

Jesus was talking to his Father and called Him the only true God. This is in complete agreement with Corinthians.

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
Again, the Father is called the one God.

John calls Jesus the son more than 50 times and never calls him the Father.

John 1:1,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
If we say Jesus is God then that means he is either the Father (which is totally counter to the Creeds) or he is not the true God (John 17:3) nor the one God (1 Cor 8:6).

Many solve the problem by finding out exactly what the "word" (logos) is in John 1:1. Hint: it's not Jesus.

Please confine the discussion to these verses in John. All the other so-called proof verses don't change what John clearly said. All verses have to fit.
I will focus just on the two Persons/Beings, rather than the Three Persons/Beings (Eternal Heavenly Trio), since the OP is addressing just the Father and the Son.

1. The Father (only) is called "the only true God" in Jhn. 17:3. The words "the only true God" in koine Greek are, "τον μονον αληθινον θεον" (ton monon alethinon theon). The Father is never called "μονογενὴς" anywhere in scripture. If He had been, He could not be the Father of the Son.

2. The Son (only) is called "only-begotten", "God" (Jhn. 1:1c., "θεος ην ο λογος" (theos en o logos)) in (Jhn. 1:14,18, 3:16,18; Heb. 11:17; 1 Jhn. 4:9, is basically monogene (μονογενῆ; Jhn. 3:16; Heb. 11:17; 1 Jhn. 4:9) or monogenes (μονογενὴς; Jhn. 1:18) or monogenous (μονογενοῦς; Jhn. 1:14, 3:18)). The Son is never called, "τον μονον αληθινον θεον" anywhere in scripture. If He had been, He could not be the Son of the Father.

The word "true", from "αληθινον" (alethinon) means "original, underived."
The words "only-begotten", from "μονογενὴς" means "only one of the same nature" (ie. as from the Father's nature; nothing to do with time). The Sons' nature is of (from) the Father. The Father's nature is His own (original, underived). The Father's nature is never that of (from) the Son. For instance, my DNA (nature) is of (from) my Father. My Father's DNA (nature) is never of (from) me as his son.

The Son is not "the Father". Ever.
The Father is not "the Son". Ever.

The Father is "the Father" (Jhn. 10:36. &c).
The Son of "the Father" is also a "Father" (Heb. 2:13; Isa 8:16,18, 9:6; Jhn. 13:33, &c), made so by "the Father".

The words "Father" and "Son" are relational terms.

Who/what is "the word" of John 1:1? John says:

In the beginning refers to Genesis 1.
The Father, in Genesis 1 is the Person/Being identified as "God said ..." (speaking to the Son)
The Son, in Genesis 1 is the Person/Being identified as "God made ..." (obeying the will of the Father)
Light refers to Genesis 1, wherein the Son, is the Light that reveals His glory in Day 1, by request of the Father.
Word refers to Genesis 1, wherein the Son carries out all commands of the Father, as the Amen of the Father. Wherever the Son is, He says and does what the Father desires Him to say and do.

Thus
God (ie Person/Being of the Son) was with the God (ie Person/Being of the Father)
Deity was with the Deity.
Eternal Son was with the Eternal Father.
2nd Person/Being was with the 1st Person/Being.


Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Joh 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
 
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