Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?

[Wrangler]

How long will you deny that Christ said He was with the Father before the world was created?

I never denied it; I just don’t read that to mean a son is not created. How li g will you deny that Christ has a God who is the only true God?

 

[Charlie24]

I never denied it; I just don’t read that to mean a son is not created. How li g will you deny that Christ has a God who is the only true God?

You have been shown time and time again that God exists in 3 distinct persons.

You have been shown that God the Father has given the Word, Jesus Christ, who was with Him before time began, the power of the universe through His redeeming of man from his sin. Or if you haven't been shown that, I will present it to you!

You have been shown that who we know now as Jesus Christ has all power and has had that power from the before the time began, with it settled that He was to represent the wishes of the Godhead to redeem man rather than destroy man for his sin.

Whether you understand or not, Christ is the God of the Bible. He was given that power by the Father. He is the author and finisher of our faith. He is the Creator. He is the Almighty God of the entire Bible.

What we can't understand and the theologians will tell you, is how 3 distinct persons can be one God. That is a relationship beyond human reasoning. It cannot be processed by the human mind.

 

[Wrangler]

I never denied it; I just don’t read that to mean a son is not created. How li g will you deny that Christ has a God who is the only true God?

You have been shown time and time again - by explicit text- that God exists in 3 distinct persons.

Wrong. Not an answer to my question. You have been shown over and over again that Jesus has a God and his God is the only God.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Continued From No.388

Son means a created Being.

Son means offspring: in point of fact, Christ is God's actual progeny by
means of His working in concert with a woman to produce a unique virgin
conceived baby who would be equal parts God and equal parts Man.

• Luke 1:35 . . In answer the angel said to her: Holy spirit will come upon
you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you. For that reason also
what is born will be called holy; God’s Son.
_

 

[Wrangler]

Son means offspring

Spring off - and after - the father who created them.

 

[Matthias]

.


Son means offspring: in point of fact, Christ is God's actual progeny by
means of His working in concert with a woman to produce a unique virgin
conceived baby who would be equal parts God and equal parts Man.

• Luke 1:35 . . In answer the angel said to her: Holy spirit will come upon
you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you. For that reason also
what is born will be called holy; God’s Son.
_

That’s the description / definition of a demigod.

“Demigod - a being with partial or lesser divine status, such as a minor deity, the offspring of a god and a mortal, or a mortal raised to a divine rank …”

(New Oxford American Dictionary)

 

[Charlie24]

Wrong. Not an answer to my question. You have been shown over and over again that Jesus has a God and his God is the only God.

No, He is not the only God, that is what we can't understand.

In the Godhead, He is the only God.

And that God is One.

There is a difference in the understanding of the Godhead and the understanding of man.

There is no attempt in Scripture to explain that one God.

 

[Matthias]

Jesus is not Jehovah, per se. But He has been given the sovereign power of the universe by God the Father.

There is no God besides Jehovah.

I’m in full agreement with your comment that “Jesus is not Jehovah, per se.”

I was brought up with the teaching and belief that “Jesus is Jehovah”.

The Son is deity.

I’m not in agreement with that, as you know.

 

[Matthias]

No, He is not the only God, that is what we can't understand.

In the Godhead, He is the only God.

And that God is One.

In your experience, have trinitarians ever pushed back against that?

 

[Charlie24]

In your experience, have trinitarians ever pushed back against that?

If they did they were the unread.

No one can explain how 3 persons plainly portrayed in Scripture are one God.

It's beyond human comprehension.

Obviously is was not meant for us to understand in this human life.

But some will go to the One God manifest is three persons thing, which is not biblical.

 

[Matthias]

If they did they were the unread.

No one can explain how 3 persons plainly portrayed in Scripture are one God.

It's beyond human comprehension.

Obviously is was not meant for us to understand in this human life.

But some will go to the One God manifest is three persons thing, which is not biblical.

Thanks.

On one hand, I’m surprised. On the other hand, I’m not.

* RIP Dr. Harold O.J. Brown *

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Continued From No.407

FAQ: If true that Jesus was virgin-conceived, then whence did his mother
obtain the Y chromosome for her boy?

REPLY: From Adam.

In the beginning, God constructed Eve with material taken from Adam's
body. From her, all other woman have come into existence. (Acts 17:26)

Well; if God could construct an entire woman, chemistry and all, from a
man's body, then it shouldn't be too difficult for Him to construct a teensy Y
chromosome from a woman's body. And the best part is, Jesus' chromosome
wouldn't be ex nihilo seeing as how it was made from his mom: a woman
biologically related to Eve; who in turn was biologically related to Adam.
_

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"Jehovah ... Jehovah's Witnesses misuse the name Jehovah ... They teach that it `is wrong to fail to use that name.' (You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth, page 44) For them it is one of the identifying marks of the true religion, so that any church or denomination that does not feature the name continually in its worship services and in its literature is automatically part of Satan's empire of false religion. The most obvious refutation for this is that such a standard would condemn Peter, Paul, John, and the other New Testament writers and the first century churches associated with them.

There is no evidence that the apostles or the early Christians-particularly the Greek-speaking converts who quickly made up the majority of the early Church-attached any such special significance to the use of this name. Rather, congregations of believers were `assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus.' (1 Corinthians 5:4 NIV) In seasons of persecution Christians were `insulted because of the name of Christ.' (1 Peter 4:14). The apostles taught `in the name of Jesus' and proclaimed that `there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.' (Acts 4:12, 18 NIV)" (Reed, 1998, pp.143-144. Emphasis original).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, He is not the only God, that is what we can't understand.

In the Godhead, He is the only God.

And that God is One.

There is a difference in the understanding of the Godhead and the understanding of man.

There is no attempt in Scripture to explain that one God.

The Trinity is Monotheism (one God).
The Trinity is one God and yet three distinct persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

The Trinity is not Tritheism (Note: Tritheism = three gods) (This is false) (Mormons have believed this).
The Trinity is not Modalism (Note: Modalism = There is no distinction of persons in the Godhead, they are just masks, names, modes, etcetera.) (This is false) (United Pentecostals believe this).

 

[Robert Gwin]

Nay, sir, they are not christians. It is written, whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Hi Word, welcome to the forum sir. You must be the oldest one who posts here for sure! May I ask what you think Jehovah's witnesses teach that is not of the doctrine of Christ?

 

[Robert Gwin]

It's interesting that the "war" in heaven spoken of in Revelation 12 doesn't necessarily mean a battle involving weapons in the historical sense. That word "war", is polemos, from which we get the words politics and polemics, which means debating ideas o and arguments. Satan in Eden deceived Eve by his use of argument and deception. Could what we are doing now be merely a continuation of that war in heaven by the user of debate and argument to convince others of our ideas and ideologies,? Is that why Satan wasn't destroyed after his rebellion? If he was destroyed, his ideas and slanders would have carried on and maybe even confirmed by God's doing away with him. So I'm order to prove Satan's ideas and ideology wrong, God has given him limited license to hang himself and prove his rebellion unfounded and selfish.
Question is, how do we best avoid following his footsteps? This thread goes to the center of the debate... The nature and character of God. The original debate and rebellion was focused on that. The character of God... All rebellions are the result of different opinions on the nature and character of the governing power. That's what this thread is about. I think we best tread carefully.

I actually know the answer to your question Brake, many don't really think of it, but when satan sinned and Adam and Eve joined him in his rebellion, Jehovah had three options that I can think of. Like you wondered He could have destroyed them, created a new human pair, but if He did, what would be the likely outcome? He could have just given up, but as we came to know Him better we realize that is not an option either, as what He proclaims comes to be. So that left how he handled it, He allowed them to be their own god.

Think of it in a classroom setting, picture Jehovah as the teacher, He has a class full of students (angels) and after putting a problem and while explaining how to work it out, he has a student that tells Him He is wrong in His calculations (satan), and he has some that side with him (Adam and Eve). Remember how the teacher handles it will affect many, if He sends them to the principles office, likely others might think the teacher wrong, and the student might have actually had a better way, so like Jehovah He passes the chalk to him, and says I am from Missouri, show me.

That is exactly what Jehovah chose to do, He allowed man to be their own god, and we see what kind of world it has produced. Many still are not convinced however, some think we are heading for destruction, while others still believe man will be able to fix the wrongs. So Jehovah is going to let us take ourselves to the point of extinction Mat 24:22 before He sends His forces to remedy the situation.

We benefit in a big way by His choosing this route sir, as like Adam and Eve we have to undergo a test as well before we are granted everlasting life at the end of the millennial reign of Christ Rev 20:5. satan has to be freed from his prison to roam the earth again, and many will join him, but if we remember the world we had under his and our leadership, vs what God has done for us during that 1k reign of Christ, most of us won't even consider listening to anything he says.

Does this make sense to you Brake?

 

[Robert Gwin]

My mistake. I thought you said “commend” and not “recommend.”
In any event, the Bible teaches we can pray to Jesus.

1. We are commanded to pray to Jesus: Jn 14:14; James 1:1-7; 1 Cor 1:2; Eph 5:19; Acts 8:22
2. We have apostolic examples of praying to Jesus: Rev 22:20, 2 Cor 12:7-9, Acts 7:54-60; Acts 8:24
3. We have necessary inferences of pray to Jesus: 1 Jn 5:11-15, Acts 1:24; Heb 7:25.

Source:
Yes we can pray to Jesus! Prayer is simply talking to Jesus

1 Corinthians 1:2 says,
“call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord,”

THE WATCHTOWER REVERSES ITS POSITION
(Involving worship of Jesus)

While there may have been an earlier hint, the new antiworship doctrine was first clearly stated in the 1 January 1954 Watchtower, where, in contradiction to what was just published in “Make Sure of All Things,” it concludes, “No distinct worship is to be rendered to Jesus Christ now glorified in heaven. Our worship is to go to Jehovah God.” Yet, the next year, the Society’s “application for an amended certificate of authority” to operate in Illinois (dated 7 February 1956) included “Exhibit A,” which reproduces almost all of Article II, including the statement of purpose: “for public Christian worship of Almighty God and Christ Jesus...”(emphasis added).

How would this doctrinal contradiction in the amended charter, which speaks of the “worship of Almighty God and Christ Jesus,” be hidden in Watch Tower publications? It is quoted in the 1 April 1953 Watchtower with a number of lines omitted before this statement, and then the section is picked up again after the words “such worship” (see figure 3). The book Qualified to Be Ministers (1955) quotes a portion of article II and skips over the section in question after the ellipsis it quotes the words immediately following: “...to arrange for and hold local and world- wide assemblies for such worship” (see figure 4). The reader is left wondering what “such worship” means.

When Article II is reproduced in the 1969 Yearbook and the 15 December 1971 Watchtower, there are again obvious attempts to hide what the charter states.​

Source:
https://www.equip.org/PDF/DJ922.pdf

I understand why you think it is proper sir. Jesus of course taught his disciples how to pray by giving us what is called the Lords prayer. All of his prayers were directed to Jehovah. And he said clearly that whatever you ask the Father in my name it will be given you.

Although many of the passages you gave really didn't show anyone praying to him, there are a few that do make it seem that way, for instance the 1 cor 1:2 you mentioned. Calling on the name of Jesus does not necessarily mean actually doing that literally, for instance notice what Acts 10:43 says: To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Notice how this was considered calling upon his name sir: Ac 22:16 And now why tarriest thou ? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

You mentioned Eph 5:19, but must not have read on into verse 20.
Acts 8:22 point blank says God.

I many times quote the term found in Rev 22:20, and I see how it can be taken that I am praying to him to come, but I am simply agreeing with the words uttered, when he said he is coming quickly, like John I in agreement say Amen! Come Lord Jesus!

We believe Paul was praying to God as 2 Cor 12:7-9
Acts 8:24 was definitely God v22
Jesus spoke about God's will multiple times, keeping that in mind it is easy to see that 1 Jn 5:14 meant God
Acts 1:24 stated the one they were praying to knew all their hearts, God knows hearts, I am not sure Jesus has that capability.
(1 Samuel 16:7) But Jehovah said to Samuel: “Do not pay attention to his appearance and how tall he is, for I have rejected him. For the way man sees is not the way God sees, because mere man sees what appears to the eyes, but Jehovah sees into the heart.”
(1 Chronicles 28:9) “And you, Solʹo·mon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a complete heart and with a delightful soul, for Jehovah searches through all hearts, and he discerns every inclination of the thoughts. If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you, but if you leave him, he will reject you forever.
(Jeremiah 11:20) But Jehovah of armies judges with righteousness; He examines the innermost thoughts and the heart. Let me see your vengeance on them, For to you I have committed my legal case.
Heb 7:25 does show he is our intercessor, however that is referring to his obedient ones correct? Would it not be logical that obedience would include praying to the God he instructed us to pray to, the God he prayed to?

I do understand what you mean, and I really cannot say for sure if it is wrong to pray to him, but I think it better to follow his teachings and direct our prayers to his God and Father as he instructed us to do, in his name of course as our intercessor (John 15:16) . . .You did not choose me, but I chose you, and I appointed you to go and keep bearing fruit and that your fruit should remain, so that no matter what you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Well if it is not this thread, I have given you the verses on Jesus being called Yahweh many times! We have tangled on many threads, so I do not know for sure which thread it is onl but I gave them to you. So you are either as careless reader, a forgetful reader, a lazy reader, of r lying, You can decide for yourself.

I understand, and of course days go by, and we only see the one previous post as well. The verses you gave never once used YHWH for Jesus, that is God's name only, and all Bibles that translate it to English unaltered render it Jehovah. Many versions change YHWH to Adonai and render it LORD, with some forwards explaining that was God's name that originally was in the passage. A prime example which is easy to see the alteration is Ps 110:1 which properly reads Jehovah said to my Lord.

If you would care to give one or two verses you think YHWH is referring to Jesus, then I would be glad to discuss them with you.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I find it humorous that the Watchtower indoctrinated you to reject the account of Lazarus and the rich man as literal but accept the faithful and discreet slave as literal when that is an obvious metaphoric example.

And besides it is individuals that the Lord Jesus commends and not some "slave class".

The Watchtowers slave class- determines what Scripture means and even came out and said that teh bible is an organizational book and thus only the organization can rightly interpret it!

It is rather clear that the rich man and Lazarus was not literal, in fact Jesus gave it, and obviously he had not redeemed mankind yet, he even pointed out that no greater man ever existed in God's eyes than John the Baptist, but he was not in heaven, so how could Lazarus be? It really is about the Kingdom being taken from Israel and given to a new nation Ron.

Well look at things in reality. Jesus is not here. He is the head of the congregation, so how does he communicate with it? Before Jesus came to earth God sent ones to communicate, spirit beings, prophets, some priests were allowed to speak for Him. With the new covenant, particularly after the Bible was completed, God has communicated through anointed Christians.

I believe you and I agree that we have entered into the last days, in fact we are near the end of them, so it is rather easy to see if Isa 2:2-4 is being fulfilled, and how they are being instructed in His ways so they can walk in His paths. It was in these last days that as you can see God's people are being gathered, don't forget with the start of the last days the apostasy came to it's end. The scattered sheep were once again being fed through God's provision. Since He doesn't speak to us literally, nor sent angels or prophets anymore, the assigned faithful slave must be real, and must be very identifiable. Who feeds the sheep sir? Who is it that instructs them in God's ways so we can walk in His paths? I can say that Jehovah feeds His people very well, so well I would say that if any of us is able to partake of all of it, it would be an extremely small percentage of us. Heck I have trouble just keeping up with what is assigned.

One thing is for certain, either the faithful slave is literal or it is not. If it is literal, then it is in existence during these last days, and it should be easy to identify it. After all it is assigned to shepherd God's people, so it is necessary for us to figure out who it is and if it exists or not. It must have some importance as God's word chose to preserve it

 

[Robert Gwin]

Jesus is not Jehovah, per se. But He has been given the sovereign power of the universe by God the Father. The Son is deity.

Psalms 2:7-12
"I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him."

The Son, who was with the Father before the world was created, was given this power by becoming the Son, speaking of His humanity, becoming man to redeem man from his sin. Christ has always been with the Father from eternity past, but has been given all power in the universe by His redeeming of man.

Before the foundation of the world Christ was with the Almighty God and was determined to be the Son that would save mankind. He is the voice heard in the Old Testament, the voice that told Moses to tell Pharaoh, "let my people go" was indeed the voice of who we know now as Jesus Christ. It was predetermined by God the Father that this power be granted to the Word/The Son of God/The Savior/The Mediator/ The God of the Bible/Jesus Christ.

Yes sir, Jesus has been given all authority I agree Mat 28:18. That authority will come to it's end however when Christ hands the Kingdom back, correct 1 Cor 15:24-28