Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?

[Wrangler]

if a religion's predictions fail, then prudence requires that we assume
its theology is highly suspect

I disagree. @Aunty Jane answered a question I asked, clarifying the topic is less than doctrine.

I’m not sure what the word is but the RCC do something similar with the claim of the infallibility of the Pope; they say the claim only applies to doctrine.

An example I’ve been using lately is about what day Eve was created on. Because Scripture is not specific or explicit, the topic is speculative. So, the day of her creation is not a doctrinal matter.

This contrasts with the doctrine of who God is. According to Scripture, his name is Jehovah (YHWH).

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Continued From No.380

I’m not sure what the word is but the RCC do something similar with the claim of the
infallibility of the Pope; they say the claim only applies to doctrine.

Recriminations are a natural reaction to criticism; typically motivated by
resentment at being singled out for faults common to others.

However recriminations are quite futile. They do nothing to mitigate one's
own faults nor excuse their conduct. People are what they are, and God
doesn't grade on a curve.

The honorable thing to do when caught in a fault is to man up and admit it
without dragging others down with you.
_

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Are you kidding? The teachings of Jesus in every translation on earth back the JW teachers all the way, as do the facts of true God worship history--Beside those 2 things there is nothing. Where does that leave the other 99% of a house divided( 33,998) trinity based religions) that will not stand? They fail this true mark 100%= 1 Cor 1:10= Unity of thought( all of Gods 1 truth) no division. Only the darkness cannot see it.

YOu can think what ever you wish. JW's tend to be wonderful people in public. I have known many. they are filled with integrity and hard working people. But they are preaching another gospel and by denying the physical resurrection of Jesus, that keeps them from ever seeing the kingdom!

Works do not save a soul! Neither does religious fervor. Paul said as much in Romans.

And yes the Watchtower is an authoritarian cult. They openly discourage and punish if you read materials outside of the watchtower unless for research to rebut purposes.

Have Christmas decorations and see ho authoritarian they become as one is disfellowshipped.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I went all the way back to post 1, we talked about you posting evidence, you calling me a liar, You saying Jesus is Divine, which we agree on by the way, but do not agree that he is equally Divine as Jehovah, I really agreed greatly with your post 109 on it. You said you posted evidence Jesus is called Yahweh, but you didn't. You said I was like a Mormon. We discussed the physical resurrection of Christ. And that pretty much sums it up. Anything else Ron?

Well if it is not this thread, I have given you the verses on Jesus being called Yahweh many times! We have tangled on many threads, so I do not know for sure which thread it is onl but I gave them to you. So you are either as careless reader, a forgetful reader, a lazy reader, of r lying, You can decide for yourself.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The faithful slave is given authority correct? Has that not always been the case? Ever read about Korah? It is true, they are the highest authority on earth, subjected to actually being the faithful slave of course. So it is obvious we see the slave differently, what is your understanding of who the faithful slave really is, just like the verse asks sir Mat 24:45

I find it humorous that the Watchtower indoctrinated you to reject the account of Lazarus and the rich man as literal but accept the faithful and discreet slave as literal when that is an obvious metaphoric example.

And besides it is individuals that the Lord Jesus commends and not some "slave class".

The Watchtowers slave class- determines what Scripture means and even came out and said that teh bible is an organizational book and thus only the organization can rightly interpret it!

 

[Wrangler]

I have given you the verses on Jesus being called Yahweh many times!

Impossible since Jesus is not YHWH, not one verse says he is. Not one!

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Continued From No.383

Jesus is not YHWH, not one verse says he is. Not one!

Jesus' human lineage can be traced directly to Adam; who himself was not a
divine being, rather, he was a created being. So then, Jesus' human origin
was dust just as every other man's human origin was dust.

Were that not true, it would be dishonest to claim Jesus was fully Man; and
were not Jesus fully Man, he wouldn't to be a viable candidate for the
Melchizedek high priesthood. (Heb 5:1-5)

The Old Testament predicted that Messiah would be promoted to a high
position.

• Isa 52:13 . . Look! My servant will act with insight. He will be in high
station and will certainly be elevated and exalted very much.

The extent of Messiah's elevation and exaltation wasn't fully appreciated
until the New Testament wherein it says:

• Phil 2:8-10 . .When he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled
himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake.
For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly
gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of
Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and
those under the ground.

God didn't merely give Jesus a high name, He gave Jesus "the" name that's
above every other name; which just about any well-trained Bible student
knows is Jehovah.

Now maybe Jesus isn't actually Jehovah, but nevertheless he has the God
given right to be known as Jehovah, and to be worshipped as Jehovah.
Refusal to give Jesus the reverence due the name of Jehovah is a
blasphemous show of disrespect for the name of God.

FAQ: But doesn't Phil 2:8-10 contradict Isa 42:8 where it says: "I am
Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give My own glory"

REPLY: I think it best to understand that verse as saying God won't allow
Himself to be supplanted. I really don't think its saying He won't willingly
share His name and/or His glory with His favorite son, i.e. the son that God
loves and admires more than all other creatures: either underground, above
ground, or up in the sky.

* The apostle Thomas appears to be way ahead of his contemporaries when
he addressed Jesus as his Lord and his God (John 20:28). I don't know for
sure how Thomas knew Jesus was on track for that unbelievable promotion,
but he did. Perhaps Jesus had instructed all of his guys ahead of time what to
expect.
_

 

[Wrangler]

Isa 52:13 . . Look! My servant will act with insight.

Whose servant? God, in his entirety, in his unitarian nature CHOSE this servant.

 

[Keiw]

Nay, sir, they are not christians. It is written, whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Do you mean like these truths from Jesus-John 20:17, Rev 3:12--Jesus has a God like us his Father--Or John 17:1-6,26--verse3-This means eternal life, their knowing you(Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD and the one whom you sent forth Christ Jesus,, Verse 6= YHWH(Jehovah) verse 26= YHWH(Jehovah)--So Jesus teaches the Father is the only true God---- Its not to difficult to see who actually listens to Jesus. I would say by teaching that God is a trinity is blatantly calling Jesus a liar.

 

[Keiw]

YOu can think what ever you wish. JW's tend to be wonderful people in public. I have known many. they are filled with integrity and hard working people. But they are preaching another gospel and by denying the physical resurrection of Jesus, that keeps them from ever seeing the kingdom!

Works do not save a soul! Neither does religious fervor. Paul said as much in Romans.

And yes the Watchtower is an authoritarian cult. They openly discourage and punish if you read materials outside of the watchtower unless for research to rebut purposes.

Have Christmas decorations and see ho authoritarian they become as one is disfellowshipped.

Peter an eye witness assures Jesus was killed in the flesh and raised in the spirit- 1Pet 3:18
Works build a strong living faith that will stand under pressures, Faith without works is dead-means will fold under pressures.
Christmas is filled with things off the table of demons, only those in darkness participate with anything off the table of demons. Jesus certainly would not accept it. 1Cor 10:21 God was telling all there if they partake off that table of demons, what they do off his table counts 0 for them. The encyclopedias are filled with the facts of pagan additives to the christmas celebration as is easter. The false god associated with the pagan things added to easter( Hot cross buns, dyed eggs of Pasch, from the Chaldean rites of spring), was called Astarte( one of the titles of Beltis the queen of the heavens) whose name found on Assyrian monuments= Ishtar-pronounced easter.

God view of a cult is what counts= A house divided( 34,000)trinity religions) will not stand.

 

[Keiw]

This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent, saith the Lord. And again, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Amen.

And in Christ dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell. God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself.

Wherefore, unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

And the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is Jesus Christ. This is why his Son is made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

If you understand english- Hebrews 1:3-4 is saying--without inheriting that name he was equal to the angels. As Psalm 45:7 also shows--They knew the Messiah had a God and it was not God that came-partners=angels.
Other things in trinity translations have been altered to fit false council teachings. When one checks into facts they find-No trinity was ever served by a true follower, In 381 ce at the council of Constantinople a trinity was added. Even catolicisms own encyclopedia says-No trinity was served by christians until near the end of the 4th century, and the apostolic Fathers knew nothing of a trinity. New Catholic Encyclopedia,1967, Vol XIV, page 299---That means Jesus knew nothing of a trinity.

 

[Truth7t7]

@L3astAm0ngManyB13ss3d When ppl make of point of denying that the Lord Jesus is God, it's hard to see how they can really believe what they keep denying.....

Well said, I agree 100%

 

[The Learner]

Outstanding

My mistake. I thought you said “commend” and not “recommend.”
In any event, the Bible teaches we can pray to Jesus.

1. We are commanded to pray to Jesus: Jn 14:14; James 1:1-7; 1 Cor 1:2; Eph 5:19; Acts 8:22
2. We have apostolic examples of praying to Jesus: Rev 22:20, 2 Cor 12:7-9, Acts 7:54-60; Acts 8:24
3. We have necessary inferences of pray to Jesus: 1 Jn 5:11-15, Acts 1:24; Heb 7:25.

Source:
Yes we can pray to Jesus! Prayer is simply talking to Jesus

1 Corinthians 1:2 says,
“call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord,”

THE WATCHTOWER REVERSES ITS POSITION
(Involving worship of Jesus)

While there may have been an earlier hint, the new antiworship doctrine was first clearly stated in the 1 January 1954 Watchtower, where, in contradiction to what was just published in “Make Sure of All Things,” it concludes, “No distinct worship is to be rendered to Jesus Christ now glorified in heaven. Our worship is to go to Jehovah God.” Yet, the next year, the Society’s “application for an amended certificate of authority” to operate in Illinois (dated 7 February 1956) included “Exhibit A,” which reproduces almost all of Article II, including the statement of purpose: “for public Christian worship of Almighty God and Christ Jesus...”(emphasis added).

How would this doctrinal contradiction in the amended charter, which speaks of the “worship of Almighty God and Christ Jesus,” be hidden in Watch Tower publications? It is quoted in the 1 April 1953 Watchtower with a number of lines omitted before this statement, and then the section is picked up again after the words “such worship” (see figure 3). The book Qualified to Be Ministers (1955) quotes a portion of article II and skips over the section in question after the ellipsis it quotes the words immediately following: “...to arrange for and hold local and world- wide assemblies for such worship” (see figure 4). The reader is left wondering what “such worship” means.

When Article II is reproduced in the 1969 Yearbook and the 15 December 1971 Watchtower, there are again obvious attempts to hide what the charter states.​

Source:
https://www.equip.org/PDF/DJ922.pdf

 

[The Learner]

Peter an eye witness assures Jesus was killed in the flesh and raised in the spirit- 1Pet 3:18
Works build a strong living faith that will stand under pressures, Faith without works is dead-means will fold under pressures.
Christmas is filled with things off the table of demons, only those in darkness participate with anything off the table of demons. Jesus certainly would not accept it. 1Cor 10:21 God was telling all there if they partake off that table of demons, what they do off his table counts 0 for them. The encyclopedias are filled with the facts of pagan additives to the christmas celebration as is easter. The false god associated with the pagan things added to easter( Hot cross buns, dyed eggs of Pasch, from the Chaldean rites of spring), was called Astarte( one of the titles of Beltis the queen of the heavens) whose name found on Assyrian monuments= Ishtar-pronounced easter.

God view of a cult is what counts= A house divided( 34,000)trinity religions) will not stand.

1 Peter 3:18-19
American Standard Version
18 Because Christ also [a]suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison,

1 Peter 4:6
American Standard Version
6 For unto this end [a]was the gospel preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

 

[The Learner]

If you understand english- Hebrews 1:3-4 is saying--without inheriting that name he was equal to the angels. As Psalm 45:7 also shows--They knew the Messiah had a God and it was not God that came-partners=angels.
Other things in trinity translations have been altered to fit false council teachings. When one checks into facts they find-No trinity was ever served by a true follower, In 381 ce at the council of Constantinople a trinity was added. Even catolicisms own encyclopedia says-No trinity was served by christians until near the end of the 4th century, and the apostolic Fathers knew nothing of a trinity. New Catholic Encyclopedia,1967, Vol XIV, page 299---That means Jesus knew nothing of a trinity.

Hebrews 1
American Standard Version
1 God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners, 2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in [a]his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds; 3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and [c]the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 having become by so much better than the angels, as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time,

[d]Thou art my Son,
This day have I begotten thee?

and again,

[e]I will be to him a Father,
And he shall be to me a Son?

6 [f]And when he again [g]bringeth in the firstborn into [h]the world he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith,

[j]Who maketh his angels winds,
And his ministers a flame of fire:

8 but of the Son he saith,

[k][l]Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever;
And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of [m]thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity;
Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee
With the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10 And,

[n]Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the works of thy hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou continuest:
And they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a mantle shalt thou roll them up,
As a garment, and they shall be changed:
But thou art the same,
And thy years shall not fail.

13 But of which of the angels hath he said at any time,

[o]Sit thou on my right hand,
Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to do service for the sake of them that shall inherit salvation?

 

[Wrangler]

@L3astAm0ngManyB13ss3d When ppl make of point of denying that the Lord Jesus is God, it's hard to see how they can really believe what they keep denying.....

Well, start with the fact that Jesus is said to be the son of God. It’s proof text he cannot be God.

Then realize Jesus did not teach the trinity. See how to pray.

That’ll help you get on the right path.

 

[Charlie24]

I very rarely lie, I would like to say I don't but of course that would be a lie. I may be wrong, and what I say may be true or false, but I really don't care for false accusations at any rate. If you think I have lied then post it. You stated in your post: And as I have showed you many times- Jesus is called Yahweh. What I said in the last post was gospel truth, you were unable to show it because Jesus was never called Jehovah(Yahweh) ever in Scripture, only in your own interpretation which is caused from a lack of research, and adherence to a severely altered version of the Bible.

If you believe you can, then post one verse, not a book, and we will examine it more closely. Afraid to put it to the test Ron? Not me! Go ahead, take your best shot sir.

Jesus is not Jehovah, per se. But He has been given the sovereign power of the universe by God the Father. The Son is deity.

Psalms 2:7-12
"I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him."

The Son, who was with the Father before the world was created, was given this power by becoming the Son, speaking of His humanity, becoming man to redeem man from his sin. Christ has always been with the Father from eternity past, but has been given all power in the universe by His redeeming of man.

Before the foundation of the world Christ was with the Almighty God and was determined to be the Son that would save mankind. He is the voice heard in the Old Testament, the voice that told Moses to tell Pharaoh, "let my people go" was indeed the voice of who we know now as Jesus Christ. It was predetermined by God the Father that this power be granted to the Word/The Son of God/The Savior/The Mediator/ The God of the Bible/Jesus Christ.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Outstanding

All glory to the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus is not Jehovah, per se. But He has been given the sovereign power of the universe by God the Father. The Son is deity.

No! Son means a created Being.

 

[Charlie24]

No! Son means a created Being.

How long will you deny that Christ said He was with the Father before the world was created?

How long will you deny the Christ his due title?

I know that is it through His virgin birth that you believe He was created.

And I know that you cannot see that He existed with the Father before time began.

But you have no excuse for ignorance any longer, you have been shown who the Christ really is!

He is the God of the Bible, given to Him by the Father for His redeeming of man from his sin.

The words, "thus saith the Lord" found in the Old testament are the words of the Christ!