OSAS Revamps it's Image: Not Sinners nor Saints

[robert derrick]

Yes, we do the good works, and they are a necessary part of our ultimate salvation.

Which do not include works of the flesh alongside, otherwise, that ultimate eternal salvation will not be obtained by them that continue to do both good and evil. That's the OSAS Adam and Eve believed, when they rejected obeying God's commandment as necessary to have eternal life with Him.

The lie of OSAS is that ultimate salvation is already obtained and unconditionally secured once someone agrees Jesus is the Christ, and none of their future works, whether good or evil have nothing to do with it.

Being saved unto the end is dependent upon obedience to Christ by faith in Him,

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

And we trust in Him for power to do so unto the end.

 

[mailmandan]

Ok. Condemnation for hypocrites that have learned to be hypocrites by OSAS theology, which is:

Those who practice OSAS by continuing in works of the flesh, and have no intent of repenting, because they are taught they are saved anyway.

That is called presumptuous sinning in the face of the Lord:

Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

You'll answer for any Christians defiling themselves with works of the flesh, while trusting in your OSAS theology.

Not withstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

More slander, unrighteous judgment and condemnation of OSAS believers. You will have enough to answer for. You continue to misrepresent what I teach about OSAS or 'preservation of the saints' so your false accusations are moot.

 

[marks]

The lie of OSAS is that ultimate salvation is already obtained and unconditionally secured once someone agrees Jesus is the Christ,

You continue to misrepresent the opposing view.

Very poor form.

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

The lie of OSAS is that ultimate salvation is already obtained and unconditionally secured once someone agrees Jesus is the Christ, and none of their future works, whether good or evil have nothing to do with it.

But OSAS, properly understood, totally rebukes such a misunderstanding. You have been ranting and raving about a false form of "OSAS," which, yes, there are some who hold to, but that is a terrible misunderstanding. A proper understanding of "OSAS" in no way advocates that obedience and works have nothing to do with our salvation. We are we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10).

Being saved unto the end is dependent upon obedience to Christ by faith in Him,

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

And we trust in Him for power to do so unto the end.

Agreed; we are being made perfect by the active work of the Holy Spirit in us, whereby we walk by the Spirit and He bears His fruit through us in the form of good works. This is called sanctification.

• we have been justified and given saving faith; this was a once and for all act of God (Romans 8, Ephesians 2)
• we are being sanctified, and this is an ongoing work of God in us, of which good works are certainly a part and, as I said, the natural result of the Spirit's ongoing work in us (Ephesians 2, Galatians 5, James 2)

Obedience and good works are the outward evidence of the work in us begun by God and sustained in us by God. And yes, the end result of this is salvation. (Philippians 1-2). So our ultimate salvation is a surety, so we can live as if it is a reality now. We are assured of it; this is what faith is, the assurance of things hoped for and the conviction of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1), and this faith is given/gifted to us by God (Ephesians 2), and He will not take it away. We cannot lose it, because it is of God, not of we ourselves. And it will be made complete.

Again, it is as if it is already complete, because we are sure that one day it will be complete, because God promises that, and all God's promises are 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ.

Are we good? I sure hope so... :)

Grace and peace to you, Robert.

 

[robert derrick]

You continue to misrepresent the opposing view.

Very poor form.

Much love!

You don't believe in unconditionally secured salvation by faith alone? Once saved always saved? You can be saved by faith alone in Jesus, and not be saved by denying Him with works of the flesh?

 

[robert derrick]

But OSAS, properly understood, totally rebukes such a misunderstanding. You have been ranting and raving about a false form of "OSAS," which, yes, there are some who hold to, but that is a terrible misunderstanding.

Terrible is right. Destructive too.

So our ultimate salvation is a surety, so we can live as if it is a reality now. We are assured of it; this is what faith is, the assurance of things hoped for and the conviction of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1), and this faith is given/gifted to us by God (Ephesians 2), and He will not take it away. We cannot lose it, because it is of God, not of we ourselves. And it will be made complete.

Again, it is as if it is already complete, because we are sure that one day it will be complete, because God promises that, and all God's promises are 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ.

Are we good? I sure hope so... :)

Grace and peace to you, Robert.

Sure. So long as we are living it now, and our end or His return is now, then the past doesn't matter, and tomorrow is in glory.

However, if we are not living it now, and our end or His return is now, that the past doesn't matter, and tomorrow is not in glory.

If you agree with that, we have perfect understanding with one another and the Scripture that says:

He that is committing sin now, is of the devil now, and he that is born of God now is not committing sin of the devil now, because His seed is remaining in him now.

 

[PinSeeker]

You know, Robert, if you had been clear about ultimate salvation at the end of the age (as opposed to the salvation we have now and are assured of) then we (probably) never would have had all this misunderstanding. I would exhort you to be... less difficult. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[robert derrick]

You know, Robert, if you had been clear about ultimate salvation at the end of the age (as opposed to the salvation we have now and are assured of) then we (probably) never would have had all this misunderstanding. I would exhort you to be... less difficult. :)

Grace and peace to you.

I would exhort you to speak less mysteriously, and also to answer to agree or disagree with plain spoken statements.
If you agree with my statements, then we perfectly agree together, about the error of an unconditional salvation of OSAS we do not agree with.

But now you bring up instead an 'ultimate salvation at the end of the age', as being somehow different from the salvation and justification by Christ we have now. And so, you need to explain that, since I don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Helen]

Enough of this baloney about OSAS. Since you are OBSESSED with this, you need to ask yourself exactly what your problem is. Or visit a shrink.

oh I am sooo very glad that you said that! 100% agree. “Obsessed “ is the very word thst came to me as I have been watching this thread , and others of his… But the Enemy just loves to get us off of Christ our centre to the right or left, he doesn’t care which. If the Enemy can’t get a person to sin or fall..he will simply give an obsession to take a persons eyes of Christ our joy and victory.

plus , I don’t know of any OSAS denomination where they get together and change their doctrine or whatever .
If any man thinks that he posses all truth and sees perfectly in the spirit…he is greatly deluded …we are all set into a Body because we each have strengths and weaknesses and need each other .
May God give us wisdom and a straight path that we don’t wander left or right .

 

[Helen]

More slander, unrighteous judgment and condemnation of OSAS believers. You will have enough to answer for. You continue to misrepresent what I teach about OSAS or 'preservation of the saints' so your false accusations are moot.

your post caused me to think of the time when Jesus reminded His disciples that we have ONE ENEMY …and it is not each other ! He said “Leave him alone , for he who is not against us are with us”.

this brother seems to see those for whom Christ died as his enemies …..I think our true Enemy is very happy with that! it keeps him busy , sidelined .

 

[robert derrick]

If any man thinks that he posses all truth and sees perfectly in the spirit…he is greatly deluded.

Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

The problem with many ungrown adults, including Christians, is they really don't know what they're talking about in matters of Christ, because they don't really look at Scripture and take it seriously. Many times this leads to a false humility at the expense of others such as Luke, that they say is greatly deluded with pride.

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind.

This is speaking of those who have a great appreciation for their own angelic spirit. They don't just come out and say it, but they certainly do like imply it. Especially when accusing others of not having it like they do.

 

[Helen]

Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

The problem with many ungrown adults, including Christians, is they really don't know what they're talking about in matters of Christ, because they don't really look at Scripture and take it seriously. Many times this leads to a false humility at the expense of others such as Luke, that they say is greatly deluded with pride.

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind.

This is speaking of those who have a great appreciation for their own angelic spirit. They don't just come out and say it, but they certainly do like imply it. Especially when accusing others of not having it like they do.

totally…look in the mirror and read your post out loud …

bless you and may you soon find peace . It is evident from your threads that you are in much anguish.

Try relaxing and enjoying Father ….take your eyes off of what your brothers are doing and believing “wrongly”…focus on His wonderful face .

when Peter said to Jesus - But what about him ?= “ What shall this man do ?” Jesus answered - “what’s that to you , follow thou Me .”
You have much weight on your shoulder re your brethren , but “ His yoke is easy and His burden is light “.

please don’t waste any more time obsessing….

blessings ..H

 

[PinSeeker]

I would exhort you to speak less mysteriously...

I'm straight up, Robert. There is no mystery with me. But point taken.

...and also to answer to agree or disagree with plain spoken statements.

I do. But, point taken.

If you agree with my statements, then we perfectly agree together, about the error of an unconditional salvation of OSAS we do not agree with.

This statement seems like you're mixing what should be two separate sentences, Robert. Read it. It seems to contradict itself. Or maybe it's just kind of discombobulated. Yeah, if we agree, then we agree (a bit of a funny thing to say). But again, if you had specified from the beginning in whatever thread it was you started your "OSAS Crusade" that you were talking about ultimate salvation, then there never would have been any disagreement from true OSAS folks. That's my point. Yes, obedience and good works are very necessary toward our ultimate salvation.

But now you bring up instead an 'ultimate salvation at the end of the age', as being somehow different from the salvation and justification by Christ we have now. And so, you need to explain that, since I don't know what you are talking about.

Well, I did explain, in Post 64 above, Robert. Again:

With regard to our initial salvation ~ justification; we are justified by God and declared righteous in Christ, even with no righteousness of our own ~ this we have been given and as such it was a once-and-for-all act at the point we received the Holy Spirit and were born again. For us Christians, that is in the past.

But by 'ultimate salvation,' we should understand that we are yet being saved ~ this is the lifelong process of the Holy Spirit working in us called sanctification ~ and thus not yet fully saved.

We agree that with regard to ultimate salvation, obedience and good works are an absolutely essential and necessary part of that. But again, the Holy Spirit is at work in us, and He will ensure that will happen, that we will will and work to God's pleasure. This is exactly what Paul says in Philippians 2:13. In our being born again, God created us for good works, that we might walk in them, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:10.

Now, if you think what I said is somehow "myterious" or "cryptic" in any way... :) It's not. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[robert derrick]

totally…look in the mirror and read your post out loud …

I've already committed it to heart, when Jesus gave it to me from your error in accusing Luke of being delusionally proud.

The teaching is good instruction for me to not be as you, especially since I knew you would refuse the correction.

I searched my memory to find where your animosity may have come from, and I remember long ago how I continued to rebuke a false teaching of yours, until I had concluded there was no more use and doing so and moved on. You have obviously been angrily watching me ever since.

Try relaxing and enjoying Father ….take your eyes off of what your brothers are doing and believing “wrongly”…focus on His wonderful face .

when Peter said to Jesus - But what about him ?= “ What shall this man do ?” Jesus answered - “what’s that to you , follow thou Me .”
You have much weight on your shoulder re your brethren , but “ His yoke is easy and His burden is light “.

I would ask if you see the irony of how you are rebuking yourself here, but I know you are too blind to your own motives to even try. You talk of how you have been watching me on this site, without offering anything of value, and then you come out for no other purpose than to join in with a childish troll to insult my efforts.

And here you have the pettiness to say I'm the one that should get my eyes off others and what they are doing. Obviously you hate being justly rebuked so much, that you won't even receive it from yourself.

But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

You are that particular kind of Christian that masks your pride and spite for other neighbors better than yourself, by a self-humility that does not exist. I would suggest you take your own advice, get your eyes off me, and tend to your own soul before the Lord. But I doubt you will take your own advice, if someone else suggests it.

Nevertheless, I'll not be engaging you anymore. I've admonished you twice, and Scripture says that is enough.
, I'll not be engaging your sort on this site anymore, because I do prefer peace to useless

 

[robert derrick]

With regard to our initial salvation ~ justification; we are justified by God and declared righteous in Christ, even with no righteousness of our own ~ this we have been given and as such it was a once-and-for-all act at the point we received the Holy Spirit and were born again. For us Christians, that is in the past.

But by 'ultimate salvation,' we should understand that we are yet being saved ~ this is the lifelong process of the Holy Spirit working in us called sanctification ~ and thus not yet fully saved.

We agree that with regard to ultimate salvation, obedience and good works are an absolutely essential and necessary part of that. But again, the Holy Spirit is at work in us, and He will ensure that will happen, that we will will and work to God's pleasure. This is exactly what Paul says in Philippians 2:13. In our being born again, God created us for good works, that we might walk in them, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:10.

I agree with you that we are forgiven and saved by faith and confession of Jesus Christ, and we continue saved by continuing in the faith steadfast with works worthy of repentance, so that in the end we may obtain eternal, or ultimate salvation along with the saints that are obeying Jesus.

I'll also add that a difference between being saved on earth, and obtaining ultimate salvation in heaven, is that our souls are being saved and made perfect now in purity of spirit and of life, but our mind and body will also be perfected by eternal salvation with promised resurrection from the dead, which is the hope of the church.

We agree that with regard to ultimate salvation, obedience and good works are an absolutely essential and necessary part of that. But again, the Holy Spirit is at work in us, and He will ensure that will happen, that we will will and work to God's pleasure. This is exactly what Paul says in Philippians 2:13. In our being born again, God created us for good works, that we might walk in them, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:10.

I believe I see the distinction between your OSAS teaching and that of others, which I have not been given before. Unconditional OSAS declares we have already gotten the crown and prize at the start of the race by faith alone. It's a done deal no matter how the race is run.

Your OSAS acknowledges the race must be run lawfully first to obtain the crown, and the assurance you teach is that you certainly will do so?

And so, the obvious question is: are you saying there is no chance of not doing so? I.e. yes, we must first run the race, but doing so to the end is as a done deal? Or is running the race to the end conditioned on how we run it?

And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.

What of those who turn back to sin and forsake his cross?

And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

 

[Helen]

I've already committed it to heart, when Jesus gave it to me from your error in accusing Luke of being delusionally proud.

The teaching is good instruction for me to not be as you, especially since I knew you would refuse the correction.

I searched my memory to find where your animosity may have come from, and I remember long ago how I continued to rebuke a false teaching of yours, until I had concluded there was no more use and doing so and moved on. You have obviously been angrily watching me ever since.



I would ask if you see the irony of how you are rebuking yourself here, but I know you are too blind to your own motives to even try. You talk of how you have been watching me on this site, without offering anything of value, and then you come out for no other purpose than to join in with a childish troll to insult my efforts.

And here you have the pettiness to say I'm the one that should get my eyes off others and what they are doing. Obviously you hate being justly rebuked so much, that you won't even receive it from yourself.

But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

You are that particular kind of Christian that masks your pride and spite for other neighbors better than yourself, by a self-humility that does not exist. I would suggest you take your own advice, get your eyes off me, and tend to your own soul before the Lord. But I doubt you will take your own advice, if someone else suggests it.

Nevertheless, I'll not be engaging you anymore. I've admonished you twice, and Scripture says that is enough.
, I'll not be engaging your sort on this site anymore, because I do prefer peace to useless

I love you too x

 

[PinSeeker]

I believe I see the distinction between your OSAS teaching and that of others, which I have not been given before.

Well, not to offend, but that has been painfully obvious. :)

Unconditional OSAS declares we have already gotten the crown and prize at the start of the race by faith alone. It's a done deal no matter how the race is run.

Agreed. As I said, that is the heresy of antinomianism, that there are no longer any consequences of sin. And Paul is very clear in his refutation of such an understanding in Romans 6, where he says, "What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!"

Your OSAS acknowledges the race must be run lawfully first to obtain the crown...

Well, our having been given the mercy of God and born again of the Spirit demands our responsibility to live lives becoming a Christian and running the race (Hebrews 12:2), sure. But there is sort of a "freedom to fail," in the sense that we will not in this life run that race perfectly, that we will fail to do so perfectly, that we will still sin in this life ~ we still fall short of the glory of God ~ but still there is no more condemnation of us who are in Christ as a result of not running the race, failing to run the race perfectly, sinning, or falling short of God's glory.

...the assurance you teach is that you certainly will do so? And so, the obvious question is: are you saying there is no chance of not doing so? I.e. yes, we must first run the race, but doing so to the end is as a done deal? Or is running the race to the end conditioned on how we run it?

Well, if your focus is solely on us ~ which it seems to be ~ the answer is no. In and of ourselves, it would actually be a certainty that we would not do so. But since God is at work in us, He's the one Who makes it a certainty:

He has given us a new heart, and a new spirit He has put within us; He has removed the heart of stone from our flesh and given us a heart of flesh, and He has put His Spirit within us, and causes us to walk in His statutes and be careful to obey His rules. (Ezekiel 36:26-27)​

"He has made us alive together with Christ ... we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:4-10)​

So... and this should not be "mysterious"... no, with regard to ourselves only, but yes, with regard go God. As Paul exhorts us all, as Christians, we should all work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in us, so that we then will and work for His good pleasure (Philippians 2:12-13). And Paul tells us this just after he has told us, in Philippians 1:6, "I am sure of this, that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."

.. and yes. :)

What of those who turn back to sin and forsake his cross?

Ah, well those... Here's what the apostle John tells us about them:

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge." (1 John 2:19-20)​

So, those who turn back to sin and forsake his cross were never really Christians in the first place; God never began His good work in them, else they would not have turned back to sin and forsaken His cross. Notice there that he's contrasting between us and them and saying that we have been anointed by the Holy One, and the strong implication there is that they have not been. You see?

Grace and peace to you, Robert.

 

[robert derrick]

But there is sort of a "freedom to fail," in the sense that we will not in this life run that race perfectly, that we will fail to do so perfectly, that we will still sin in this life ~ we still fall short of the glory of God ~ but still there is no more condemnation of us who are in Christ as a result of not running the race

Doesn't freedom to fail mean we are at liberty to fail the race, but still receive the crown, and even extends to those not running the race at all?

Since there is no condemnation as result of not running the race, then those believers also receive the ultimate crown at the end?

 

[PinSeeker]

Doesn't freedom to fail mean we are at liberty to fail the race, but still receive the crown, and even extends to those not running the race at all?

Absolutely not.

Since there is no condemnation as result of not running the race, then those believers also receive the ultimate crown at the end?

You're misunderstanding. For those in Christ, there's no more condemnation for sin, not for not running the race. This is Romans 8:1.

The very fact that God, through Paul, says that there is no more condemnation for sin for those in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1) means there is the presumption that even those in Christ Jesus will still sin (at least from time to time). Not willingly, of course, but they will still, in this life, sin.

But to your question, if they are believers, if they are in Christ, they will not fail to run the race. God, by His Spirit, will see to that, as He is at work in us so that we will and work to His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

Again, He has given us a new heart, and a new spirit He has put within us; He has removed the heart of stone from our flesh and given us a heart of flesh, and He has put His Spirit within us, and has caused us to walk in His statutes and be careful to obey His rules (Ezekiel 36:26-27). He has made us alive together with Christ and are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them (Ephesians 2:4-10). This should all be understood as synonymous with what Paul says about fighting the good fight, finishing the race, and keeping the faith (2 Timothy 4:7) and the writer of Hebrews says about running with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith (Hebrews 12:1-2).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Jack]

OSAS?